Alaskan Camper Build Up
- Thread starter Carlyle
- Start date
Holy cow! I read your previous build and just noticed your misfortune and new future. Sorry for the past loss but excited to see this new one (honestly glad I just notice this, got to see a TON of progress in one evening. 
).
Considering you said the Atwood was not turned on while it was parked I don't readily see it as the likely culprit personally but you're much closer to the situation.
Was the camper plugged into shore power when this happened? If so I'd personally have been putting a very inquiring look into the 110v wiring. For some reason camper manufacturers incorrectly use household romex type wiring in camper circuits often, that stuff is not meant for moving/vibrating environment. That stuff is solid copper wiring if the wires get jiggled going down the road the wire can work harden and crack/snap (think about bending a paper clip back and forth), when that happens the resistance sky rockets and heat is generated which can melt stuff down and cause a fire... Stranded copper wiring should be used in both the 12V and 110V circuits if you ask me.
).Considering you said the Atwood was not turned on while it was parked I don't readily see it as the likely culprit personally but you're much closer to the situation.
Was the camper plugged into shore power when this happened? If so I'd personally have been putting a very inquiring look into the 110v wiring. For some reason camper manufacturers incorrectly use household romex type wiring in camper circuits often, that stuff is not meant for moving/vibrating environment. That stuff is solid copper wiring if the wires get jiggled going down the road the wire can work harden and crack/snap (think about bending a paper clip back and forth), when that happens the resistance sky rockets and heat is generated which can melt stuff down and cause a fire... Stranded copper wiring should be used in both the 12V and 110V circuits if you ask me.
Carlyle
Explorer
Holy cow! I read your previous build and just noticed your misfortune and new future. Sorry for the past loss but excited to see this new one (honestly glad I just notice this, got to see a TON of progress in one evening.
Considering you said the Atwood was not turned on while it was parked I don't readily see it as the likely culprit personally but you're much closer to the situation.
Was the camper plugged into shore power when this happened? If so I'd personally have been putting a very inquiring look into the 110v wiring. For some reason camper manufacturers incorrectly use household romex type wiring in camper circuits often, that stuff is not meant for moving/vibrating environment. That stuff is solid copper wiring if the wires get jiggled going down the road the wire can work harden and crack/snap (think about bending a paper clip back and forth), when that happens the resistance sky rockets and heat is generated which can melt stuff down and cause a fire... Stranded copper wiring should be used in both the 12V and 110V circuits if you ask me.
I'm pretty sure Alaskan is spec'ing true rv wiring and not household wiring in their campers. The camper was plugged into shore power and being controlled by the Outback system that was in it.
Carlyle
Explorer
Update:
Alaskan has been having trouble figuring out how to ship the camper at this time and we have vacation coming starting next week, therefore the wife and the two dogs and I will be heading to Chehalis, WA to have the camper mounted next Thursday and Friday.
Running boards are on and work well:
I put down a 1/4" high density rubber mat on the deck and screwed it down with counter sunk screws that will sandwich between the camper and the deck:
Compressors and tanks in place under the deck in the rear with fittings to both sides for on-board air:
The two dogs ready for a road trip:
Alaskan has been having trouble figuring out how to ship the camper at this time and we have vacation coming starting next week, therefore the wife and the two dogs and I will be heading to Chehalis, WA to have the camper mounted next Thursday and Friday.
Running boards are on and work well:
I put down a 1/4" high density rubber mat on the deck and screwed it down with counter sunk screws that will sandwich between the camper and the deck:
Compressors and tanks in place under the deck in the rear with fittings to both sides for on-board air:
The two dogs ready for a road trip:
Enjoy the trip!
That's the thing, many/most RVs are doing the same thing, doesn't mean it's best practice. I'm not singling out Alaskan here the factory 120V wiring in my FWC is the same way. However solid wiring isn't allowed in marine use for vibration reasons. Most RVs are likely road queens however folks on this board are likely subjecting their to quite a bit more vibration. I'm bringing it up because you had a random fire while on shore power from an unknown cause which is exactly what can happen when solid core wiring vibrates and stress cracks.
In the picture below the yellow wiring looks like basic 12ga romex to me. Easy enough to verify, just inspect an outlet when you get it to see if the wire feeding it is solid or stranded.
That's the thing, many/most RVs are doing the same thing, doesn't mean it's best practice. I'm not singling out Alaskan here the factory 120V wiring in my FWC is the same way. However solid wiring isn't allowed in marine use for vibration reasons. Most RVs are likely road queens however folks on this board are likely subjecting their to quite a bit more vibration. I'm bringing it up because you had a random fire while on shore power from an unknown cause which is exactly what can happen when solid core wiring vibrates and stress cracks.
In the picture below the yellow wiring looks like basic 12ga romex to me. Easy enough to verify, just inspect an outlet when you get it to see if the wire feeding it is solid or stranded.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
The flip side of that coin, is that it's not all that easy for #12 solid to move when connected to a device and smooshed down into a box. There's generally not enough play for it to vibrate enough to break.
The issue of solid wire breaking under vibration is related to how much it flops around. Properly strapped and with 6" stripped and folded in a box almost never breaks. The most common cause of solid wire breaking is when the copper was nicked while being stripped. I've seen it plenty of times - *in buldings*. Cities do, in fact vibrate a good deal.
Even if the hot wire did break off - it then has to contact something to generate a spark to start a fire. If it's in a metal box and the box is grounded, then the breaker *should* trip and prevent a fire. If it's in a plastic box, then contacting the box does nothing. The hot has to contact either the neutral or the ground wire - either of which case should also trip the breaker.
Most receptacles these days come with screws on the side, and also holes in the back to just push the stripped wire end in - what electricians call "back stabbing". I've seen plenty of receptacles overheated to the point of failure by being heavily loaded for a long time when there was not a good connection between the wire and the clip inside of the back stab hole.
When it comes to 120v wiring, I'd be less concerned with a fire resulting from a solid wire breaking off, then I would be concerned about the wire/receptacle junction overheating due to using the back stab connection method.
That problem can also be exacerbated by extension cords; longer wire resulting in voltage drop can cause everything to run a little hotter.
As for the pic above - that's the lifting roof of the Alaskan. I don't know if they are using any 120v stuff in the roof at all. But even if they are, the roof raises and lowers; therefore there is no was they are using solid wire for the foldup connection between the bottom box and the roof, even if they are using it in the roof itself.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I suppose they do have 120v wiring in the roof if there is an a/c unit up there.
The issue of solid wire breaking under vibration is related to how much it flops around. Properly strapped and with 6" stripped and folded in a box almost never breaks. The most common cause of solid wire breaking is when the copper was nicked while being stripped. I've seen it plenty of times - *in buldings*. Cities do, in fact vibrate a good deal.
Even if the hot wire did break off - it then has to contact something to generate a spark to start a fire. If it's in a metal box and the box is grounded, then the breaker *should* trip and prevent a fire. If it's in a plastic box, then contacting the box does nothing. The hot has to contact either the neutral or the ground wire - either of which case should also trip the breaker.
Most receptacles these days come with screws on the side, and also holes in the back to just push the stripped wire end in - what electricians call "back stabbing". I've seen plenty of receptacles overheated to the point of failure by being heavily loaded for a long time when there was not a good connection between the wire and the clip inside of the back stab hole.
When it comes to 120v wiring, I'd be less concerned with a fire resulting from a solid wire breaking off, then I would be concerned about the wire/receptacle junction overheating due to using the back stab connection method.
That problem can also be exacerbated by extension cords; longer wire resulting in voltage drop can cause everything to run a little hotter.
As for the pic above - that's the lifting roof of the Alaskan. I don't know if they are using any 120v stuff in the roof at all. But even if they are, the roof raises and lowers; therefore there is no was they are using solid wire for the foldup connection between the bottom box and the roof, even if they are using it in the roof itself.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I suppose they do have 120v wiring in the roof if there is an a/c unit up there.
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I was leaning towards cracking partially/thinning due to fatigue which would increase resistance and cook the wire potentially. The same way aluminum wiring used in the 70s was an increased fire hazard because it would expand/contract more over time and loosen up wire nut connections which under increased resistance/heat would melt/burn.
I'm not saying that is what happened to his camper just one possible thought. Personally I'll not be using any solid wire in my build.
Kilroy
Adventurer
Hi Carlyle,
I've got household romex in my 98 CO. Just ran across it last week.
Exciting time to be picking up new camper.
Have a save trip.
Dave
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Yea, I wouldn't either if I was doing a new build.
My old Class B does have romex for the 5 120v receptacles and the single 15a breaker. Naturally, one of the first things I did when I got it was to open it all up and check it out. I found no issues at all so I just put it back together and let it ride.
Honestly, some of the sloppy floppy half-assed 12v wiring bothered me a whole lot more than the romex.
But what is the point when tinned stranded marine grade 12/3 wire is +/-10% the cost of 12/3 household romex. For little one off jobs I can see someone maybe wanting to do that for availability but for a manufacturer when you're stocking up on wire it seems silly to not to just use the stuff better suited to the application.
I think folks just never really thought about it. It can't just be a money thing or I suspect you'd see white jacket 14/3 in the roof picture rather than yellow 12/3 feeding what I assume are 15amp 120v circuits.
Agreed.
Even well built campers, like Alaskans, are using personel and materials that are readily available.
Having lived and worked in an area that is known for very highend, North Atlantic capable, boats; I feel compelled to point out that marine wiring is subject to all of the same failures and quirks as the RV industry. That they use different wiring methods and materials is more an issue of environment than stress related failures.
I can see how this issue could stress out an owner, most especially Carlyle, but i have to believe that Alaskan is using Romex for a reason. This is not a company that has EVER been accused of cheaping out on materials. If they have a fault, its not pursuing new technology. But new tech is not the Alaskan demographic. At least not structurally. Id be interested on Bryan's thoughts on this.
I'd also suggest owners inspect their own wiring periodically. Most professional yacht engineers do so pretty regularly. Its on both Hatteras Yachts and Tiarra's inspection lists and is something the Fountain Powerboat folks stressed to owners.
Now please, more thread. This has been my favorite thread for 2 years running.
Good luck Carlyle on the new baby.
Even well built campers, like Alaskans, are using personel and materials that are readily available.
Having lived and worked in an area that is known for very highend, North Atlantic capable, boats; I feel compelled to point out that marine wiring is subject to all of the same failures and quirks as the RV industry. That they use different wiring methods and materials is more an issue of environment than stress related failures.
I can see how this issue could stress out an owner, most especially Carlyle, but i have to believe that Alaskan is using Romex for a reason. This is not a company that has EVER been accused of cheaping out on materials. If they have a fault, its not pursuing new technology. But new tech is not the Alaskan demographic. At least not structurally. Id be interested on Bryan's thoughts on this.
I'd also suggest owners inspect their own wiring periodically. Most professional yacht engineers do so pretty regularly. Its on both Hatteras Yachts and Tiarra's inspection lists and is something the Fountain Powerboat folks stressed to owners.
Now please, more thread. This has been my favorite thread for 2 years running.
Good luck Carlyle on the new baby.