Americas 2011 expedition - Need help/advice/opinion
- Thread starter Vizoo
- Start date
cruzinwyo
Observer
First off awesome adventure you have planned!!!
Here's some of my recommendations coming from the LCruiser/Tacoma and now into the JK world.
1- Tent: I would go with the EziAwn that fit.
2- Suspension: I would look into AEV or Currie they both have progressive rate springs that will help with the load you are planning. I would bet AEV 3.5" with Currie Front Control Arms would be perfect for you. Might need to do drive shafts as well with this lift.
3- Roof rack: This is a no brainer to me the Front Runner is very simple, fewer parts to break with the exo skeleton type racks.
4- Back Tray: Instead of the back tray (mainly because of security of things being outside) I would really consider removing the rear seats. Make a flat deck. Check out the mopar underground overland JK.
5- Sand Tracks: I wouldn't bother. Just get some rubber mudflaps. if you really want sand tracks...go with bridging ladders and mount them under the Front Runner rack.
6- Snatch Block: TMax makes a good one and much cheaper for a sample of the price. Get a complete compliment of recovery tools (tree saver, shackles, etc). Also spend the money and get a Synthetic line for your winch=Saves weight.
7- Air Jack: Get a Highlift with an base plate (orange). Tons of mounting options.
8- Winch mount: If you are on a time crunch call the companies you are considering to see the availability (some like shrockworks are 5-6 months out). I love my LoD front and Rear bumper. GenRight also makes aluminum bumpers which would help you save a lot of weight! Poison Spyder Customs makes good ones with great approach angels and they are very well priced.
9- Some extra horse power?: Get a superchip. And take it with you. Make sure you can access the codes because this unit will tell you the error code, as well as modify your needs like a chip. Maybe look into an MBRP off road exhaust.
10- These are cool !!: Information is priceless! Pictures are worth a thousand words....get what you can/willing to afford. I think you could lose the front grabhandle on the passenger side and use those holes to mount a Lowerence Baja? Just a thought, not sure Lowerance supports other americas.
11- Cooler or Fridge: ARB Fridge. Hands down
12- Emergency repair: A six pack of beer might get you some time with a local if you had to do emergency repairs.
13- Electricity: I wouldn't do the generator. What would you run off of it? Instead dual battery and an sPOD to run all you accesories.
14- Extra fuel/water: The AEV rear bumper has water tanks built into it or I would look into a tank for the empty floorboards in the rear seating area (since the seats are gone). Also Look into the Kodiak Inc hot water heater. The fuel...get some good cans and mount them to the front runner. ALso look into GenRight as they have extended range gas tanks for JK's.
15- Lights: Get HID or LED only. You wont regret it.
16- Spare tire: For the spare I would see what typical tire sizes are in S america. 16" rim 33" tire et. and the ability to get another if needed. I would only carry one and a good repair kit. I'm a firm believer that the driver protects their tires and diffs.
A few things i would also consider that are not on your list:
Air compressor (Viair 400 and look into Jeepswag for an under hood mount.)
Skids: The rubicon is pretty set up and adding a lot of skids adds a lot of weight. But I would get an EVAP skid (poison spyder customs) and an oil pan skid, as these two areas are really vulnerable to damage.
Security: Get a locking gas cap.
Cooking: See what fuels are availble for you planned route. Jet boils are awesome and compact! You can get creative if you look into what the ultra light backpackers are cooking in a Jetboil.
And one last thing if the rubicon is an automatic I would install a Tranny Cooler (B&M part #70268 at summit racing). The automatics are infamous for overheating after an hour of 4Hi driving under any load (uphill or weighted).
Here's some of my recommendations coming from the LCruiser/Tacoma and now into the JK world.
1- Tent: I would go with the EziAwn that fit.
2- Suspension: I would look into AEV or Currie they both have progressive rate springs that will help with the load you are planning. I would bet AEV 3.5" with Currie Front Control Arms would be perfect for you. Might need to do drive shafts as well with this lift.
3- Roof rack: This is a no brainer to me the Front Runner is very simple, fewer parts to break with the exo skeleton type racks.
4- Back Tray: Instead of the back tray (mainly because of security of things being outside) I would really consider removing the rear seats. Make a flat deck. Check out the mopar underground overland JK.
5- Sand Tracks: I wouldn't bother. Just get some rubber mudflaps. if you really want sand tracks...go with bridging ladders and mount them under the Front Runner rack.
6- Snatch Block: TMax makes a good one and much cheaper for a sample of the price. Get a complete compliment of recovery tools (tree saver, shackles, etc). Also spend the money and get a Synthetic line for your winch=Saves weight.
7- Air Jack: Get a Highlift with an base plate (orange). Tons of mounting options.
8- Winch mount: If you are on a time crunch call the companies you are considering to see the availability (some like shrockworks are 5-6 months out). I love my LoD front and Rear bumper. GenRight also makes aluminum bumpers which would help you save a lot of weight! Poison Spyder Customs makes good ones with great approach angels and they are very well priced.
9- Some extra horse power?: Get a superchip. And take it with you. Make sure you can access the codes because this unit will tell you the error code, as well as modify your needs like a chip. Maybe look into an MBRP off road exhaust.
10- These are cool !!: Information is priceless! Pictures are worth a thousand words....get what you can/willing to afford. I think you could lose the front grabhandle on the passenger side and use those holes to mount a Lowerence Baja? Just a thought, not sure Lowerance supports other americas.
11- Cooler or Fridge: ARB Fridge. Hands down
12- Emergency repair: A six pack of beer might get you some time with a local if you had to do emergency repairs.
13- Electricity: I wouldn't do the generator. What would you run off of it? Instead dual battery and an sPOD to run all you accesories.
14- Extra fuel/water: The AEV rear bumper has water tanks built into it or I would look into a tank for the empty floorboards in the rear seating area (since the seats are gone). Also Look into the Kodiak Inc hot water heater. The fuel...get some good cans and mount them to the front runner. ALso look into GenRight as they have extended range gas tanks for JK's.
15- Lights: Get HID or LED only. You wont regret it.
16- Spare tire: For the spare I would see what typical tire sizes are in S america. 16" rim 33" tire et. and the ability to get another if needed. I would only carry one and a good repair kit. I'm a firm believer that the driver protects their tires and diffs.
A few things i would also consider that are not on your list:
Air compressor (Viair 400 and look into Jeepswag for an under hood mount.)
Skids: The rubicon is pretty set up and adding a lot of skids adds a lot of weight. But I would get an EVAP skid (poison spyder customs) and an oil pan skid, as these two areas are really vulnerable to damage.
Security: Get a locking gas cap.
Cooking: See what fuels are availble for you planned route. Jet boils are awesome and compact! You can get creative if you look into what the ultra light backpackers are cooking in a Jetboil.
And one last thing if the rubicon is an automatic I would install a Tranny Cooler (B&M part #70268 at summit racing). The automatics are infamous for overheating after an hour of 4Hi driving under any load (uphill or weighted).
Vizoo
Adventurer
That's a complete reply!!
> 1- Tent: I would go with the EziAwn that fit.
Its the heaviest and not ready available (the 2200) but I think will be the brand of choice.
> 2- Suspension: I would bet AEV 3.5" with Currie Front Control Arms would be perfect for you.
I would prefer not to lift, just use a harder spring and seriously considering the Airlift inside the coil.
> 3- Roof rack: to me the Front Runner is very simple, fewer parts to break with the exo skeleton type racks.
I had an opinion here not to use the Front Runner because it fits directly in the fiberglass roof of the JK and I may have issues with all the weight over it, what do you think?
> 4- Back Tray: I would really consider removing the rear seats. Make a flat deck.
I am planning to keep at least one of the seats. Will leave this decision after checking all the available space.
> 5- Sand Tracks: Just get some rubber mudflaps.
I don't get it, how are thw mudflaps be of any use when stucked?
> 6- Snatch Block: TMax makes a good one and much cheaper for a sample of the price.
$70 from Amazon, not much diference from ARB. Yes, synthetic line is a must have.
> 9- Some extra horse power?: Get a superchip.
Unanimous decision.
> 10- These are cool !!: use those holes to mount a Lowerence Baja?
Do not know either if they support the other americas, but it would have to support europe also, and the next trip may be to the far east so I think I will stick with garmin as for GPS.
I think the DashDac will be on my dashboard
> 11- Cooler or Fridge: ARB Fridge. Hands down
Why? Have you seen the Waeco CD-30, isn't it great to place the compressor away from the cabinet and be free of the noise?
> 13- Electricity: I wouldn't do the generator. What would you run off of it? Instead dual battery and an sPOD to run all you accesories.
Well... The generator is a toy I've ever wanted, besides this, I plan to use it to recharge the secondary battery (it will not be conected to the JK) the electric bikes batteries, notebook, cameras, eventually to power the air compressor.
> 14- Extra fuel/water: The AEV rear bumper has water tanks built into it
I think that will be the one.
> Also Look into the Kodiak Inc hot water heater.
I am thinking of having some cooper tubing around the engine and a valve to use thermodinamics to make the water flow through the tubing and the container and mix with fresh water when bathing.
> The fuel...get some good cans and mount them to the front runner.
There will be no space on the rack with the EeziAwn 2200.
> 15- Lights: Get HID or LED only. You wont regret it.
To expensive for very little use, I will probably only drive in daylight.
> 16- Spare tire: For the spare I would see what typical tire sizes are in S america.
I know that from Chille to Brazil I shouldn't have trouble finding anything, don't know yet about central america, ecuador and peru.
Agree about carrying only one, already gave up the dual spare idea.
> A few things i would also consider that are not on your list:
Air compressor (Viair 400 and look into Jeepswag for an under hood mount.)
Some stuff is not listed because I already decided about the brand/model I will buy. As for the compressor (maybe you already read it on another reply, since I will have the generator, I am trying to get info if a 100v would be better (faster) then a 12v compressor.
> And one last thing if the rubicon is an automatic
Manual, my JK is real
I checked out your web pages. The route you mapped follows well-traveled roads. This makes sense because you'll need to move fast to complete a journey of this length in a reasonable length of time.
If this is the plan, there's no need to upgrade the Jeep. A standard 4x4 will do fine. Even a 2WD vehicle will complete the route described if you're prepared to be delayed for a while. Keep the vehicle as close to stock as possible to simplify repairs.
Perhaps you're thinking about outfitting the Jeep in USA where the gear is relatively inexpensive, then selling it in Brasil after the trip is completed. If that's the case, then buy all the lift kits, oversize tires, bumpers, winches, off-road lights, and other gear that your budget can afford.
Either way, take a look at the new Adventure Trailers JK Habitat. This innovative replacement for the Jeep's removable roof retains at least one rear seat, provides lots of compartments for storage, and includes an easy to deploy rooftop tent.
http://www.adventuretrailers.com/jkhabitat.html
A more expensive alternative is the Earthroamer XV-JP http://www.earthroamer.com/tab_xpedition_vehicles/xvjp1_overview.html
If this is the plan, there's no need to upgrade the Jeep. A standard 4x4 will do fine. Even a 2WD vehicle will complete the route described if you're prepared to be delayed for a while. Keep the vehicle as close to stock as possible to simplify repairs.
Perhaps you're thinking about outfitting the Jeep in USA where the gear is relatively inexpensive, then selling it in Brasil after the trip is completed. If that's the case, then buy all the lift kits, oversize tires, bumpers, winches, off-road lights, and other gear that your budget can afford.
Either way, take a look at the new Adventure Trailers JK Habitat. This innovative replacement for the Jeep's removable roof retains at least one rear seat, provides lots of compartments for storage, and includes an easy to deploy rooftop tent.
http://www.adventuretrailers.com/jkhabitat.html
A more expensive alternative is the Earthroamer XV-JP http://www.earthroamer.com/tab_xpedition_vehicles/xvjp1_overview.html
Vizoo
Adventurer
Hello Haven, I am not worried about how long it takes, the only "precise" date is that I've to get in Alaska in July. From there its an ongoing expedition. The route is also not precise, i will detour at will depending on finding buddies to go somewhere else or tips that lead me to change it and see other places.
That is also what I think, but don't you agree at least with a pair of harder springs and the Airlift inside them? I have also been told that the stock tires are not suited to carry all the weight... BTW, I had planned to exchange the Rubi Off road stock weels and tires for the Sahara model with the dealer. No good deal?
No, I also live in Brazil, and plan to keep the car for me in here.
I've seen it already. It is great, but not available yet, and no clue about price nor release date.
Frank
Explorer
I think you need to put more thought to your CB choice. I dont think I would skimp on what could save you as a last resort...
BTW, the SPOT is pretty sweet!
86cj
Explorer
I can help with the Air-Lift bags, I have used them for many years. The set in my 1992 Z-28 still work as they did in 92', The set on my 2000 ZR-2 Blazer have about 100K, and my Jeep Unlimited LJ has had a set since 2004. All of them hold air 100% since installation.
I also filed down all burs and put extra abrasion protection "rubber fuel line" on the air lines and sharp edges, including zip ties to route the lines for a reliable install. If you cut the line clean and square, the cheap fittings work fine, alot of people bad mouth the bags, it is almost always the installation.
I have to admit, the way the Jeep bumpstop pushes into the bag I thought this set might fail under "Expo weight" , so good so far. Some people say they have popped faulty bags, I say for the $66 bucks mine cost, carry an extra set, they also have an excellent warranty and are readily available. Once the hole is drilled for the bottom air line "during install", putting a bag in and out of the spring is no big deal.
If you are camping at a KOA between two Huge busses, running your generator all night may be OK. You will make alot more friends in the USA if you don't run your generator all night, no matter how quiet. If you think that you are in the middle of nowhere, still don't run it all night... A fellow Expo'r could think he is in the middle of nowhere and realize he isn't when the Honda fires up...........
Great trip good luck...................
I also filed down all burs and put extra abrasion protection "rubber fuel line" on the air lines and sharp edges, including zip ties to route the lines for a reliable install. If you cut the line clean and square, the cheap fittings work fine, alot of people bad mouth the bags, it is almost always the installation.
I have to admit, the way the Jeep bumpstop pushes into the bag I thought this set might fail under "Expo weight" , so good so far. Some people say they have popped faulty bags, I say for the $66 bucks mine cost, carry an extra set, they also have an excellent warranty and are readily available. Once the hole is drilled for the bottom air line "during install", putting a bag in and out of the spring is no big deal.
If you are camping at a KOA between two Huge busses, running your generator all night may be OK. You will make alot more friends in the USA if you don't run your generator all night, no matter how quiet. If you think that you are in the middle of nowhere, still don't run it all night... A fellow Expo'r could think he is in the middle of nowhere and realize he isn't when the Honda fires up...........
Great trip good luck...................
Attachments
webdog
Observer
I have not seen the Waeco CD-30 but I am working on a custom install using a ARB Fridge and I can say it is almost silent, plugged in to my house it is quieter than my PC and only has a very slight fan noise but not any compressor noise.
The ARB also seems to have a large amount of space on the inside and is laid out nicely.
Vizoo
Adventurer
The CB is not my last resort, actually I may leave it behind. It is in the list just because I already have it and could use it to talk within the guys trailing together. the last resort is the SPOT, and I am considering an Inmarsat BGAN.
Vizoo
Adventurer
Thanks!! Valid input. I have already ordered two pairs.
I will buy the generator anyway. Will see myself how noise it is and if there is means of reducing even further the noise it does, like puting it inside a hole, noise deflectors/supressors etc.
I would never use any noisy device on a quiet area. I am very adept to the "silent is golden" saying
But I would have no guilt on adding my generator's noice to a parking lot close to a highway.
Vizoo
Adventurer
I am willing to spent 100 bucks to buy one small refrigerator and convert it to a car unit. With the possibility of placing the compressor outside, noise is no longer a big concern. The ARB cost from $720 to $780 vs $530 of the Waeco. I also think the CD-30 has the most inteligent design for using it inside the trunk.
Indeed, I think it is even bigger then what I am looking for, the smaller model is 35 liters. Although this is a long journey, I don't plan to cook on a day to day basis, the fridge will be most for liquids and snacks. This is why I was also considering a cooler instead of a fridge, its smaller, cheaper and some are noiseless.
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I would love to do the south of the border part of the trip. If I win the million dollar give-a-way, I'm in. LOL.
My opinion on suspension: I have built up a handful of JK's to date for people. The one thing I have found, is the extra weight can really effect the handling of these rigs. When considering an in depth build like this, the first thing I do is weigh everything in, and figure how I will distribute weight properly for ON/ OFF road travel. One of the best handling kits out there is the AEV kits. The 3.5" kit will allow for up to 35's to fit without issue and the ride is very nice. ...esp. since this kit was designed with weight from gear/ bumpers/ etc.
Roof Rack: The GOBI is hand's down one of the better designs. My opinion is slightly swayed though. I can tell you it will hold a ton of weight. Although 300 pounds is the recommended static (while driving) weight, you can put roughly 800lbs on that rack though when parked, so a Simpson III ARB tent works great on it. Than having other gear up front over the freedom panel area can still work with the cargo (sunroof insert). The dual isolator kits are also recommended for extended off road travel and heavier loads. Combine that with AEV corner guards and yourself a very secure/ stout setup. The Rotopax mount easy enough to that rack as well as a hi-lift/ axe/shovel/ cargo buckles for securing gear. All those mounts have locking knobs too.
Inside gear: If you haven’t checked out Scott's white JK yet, take a look. He has an AEV setup on that truck. The inside has a nice load floor installed for hauling gear/ ARB fridge/ and doubles as a sleeping platform if needed. Try to keep your gear anchored to the floor/ read: lower Center of gravity. But lighter items can be secured to the roll bar inside as well. A CO2 (POWERTANK) is my secondary air source and is mounted to the roll bar out of the way.
Under the Hood: Viair makes a nice compressor that you can mount under the hood. Continuous duty is the way to go. S POD/ Source is a nice way to keep all of your wiring at bay. The interior switch panel runs into your engine bay through a pre-terminated wiring harness to a well thought out relay bank. This makes wiring those lights/ acc's a breeze. A dual battery setup would also be my preference for a longer trip. Isolate your primary battery for starting the vehicle and all other acc's off your secondary battery.
Bumpers: I personally run an ARB bumper up front with a WARN winch. I only run an 8000, but also run an ARB snatch block to help with pulling power. Really a 9000lb winch is the ideal setup for this truck. The ARB will also fit that. However, I do prefer full coverage as the ARB offers, but the Expedition One front and rear bumpers are great quality!!! The rear bumper is compatible with the GOBI rack's rear mounting (AEV rear is not and requires a drill application bracket), but looks like you have plans for a nice H2O tank back there. If you do go that route, I would relocate the low hanging muffler with an MBRP off road/ before axle/ mount. In addition, it is best to relocate your evap. canister to above the rear axle. That will keep it away from the new muffler location and out of harm's way. You'll also want to build a skid for your water tank. A custom tank isn’t all that easy to find, but I ran across a company/ Ainley who builds dog trailers can make any size tank, skids, etc.
Recovery gear: ARB's recovery gear is nice!! Also add in a winch extension line to your kit. If you are going to do any desert travling alone, it would be a good idea to get a PullPal. you can always do the burry teh spare tire truck worst case, but the pullpal is a grear tool when used properly. If you hav enothing to hook your winch line too, this is the way to go.
Lighting: PIAA and LightForce are my two favorite manufacts for quality and realiability. PIAA over LightForce, but L.F. allows you to bring along filters you can throw on to adapt to the changing weather conditions. If you want to take lighting to the next level, LED lighting is top notch!! I use Rigid Industries LED' bars on a couple of builds. These lights are bright! a 40" bar can fit up in the GOBI rack (when equiped with a LED option for the lightbar). I have done a couple and they sit back just far enough to keep from getting smacked my branches on those tight trails. That 40" bar is like turning on the sun at night!! Add 2 6" lights for the rear and or sides and you have a well lit/ clear white light surrounding your work area/ camp site. But you'll also want some ambers/ fogs up front for snow/dust/fog. They do make Amber bars also and have been used on teh UTV's and Sand Rails. They partnered up on a couple of border patrol rigs also and installed amber barson them. The bars are very low draw also!
I'm sure I could write an article on testing most of these products, but I suppose I should actually do some work today. LOL.
feel free to contact me if you want to chat more about.
BTW- If you come to CO or UT, I can recomend some scenic trails for you and your son and if time allows, show you some of them as well.
My opinion on suspension: I have built up a handful of JK's to date for people. The one thing I have found, is the extra weight can really effect the handling of these rigs. When considering an in depth build like this, the first thing I do is weigh everything in, and figure how I will distribute weight properly for ON/ OFF road travel. One of the best handling kits out there is the AEV kits. The 3.5" kit will allow for up to 35's to fit without issue and the ride is very nice. ...esp. since this kit was designed with weight from gear/ bumpers/ etc.
Roof Rack: The GOBI is hand's down one of the better designs. My opinion is slightly swayed though.
I can tell you it will hold a ton of weight. Although 300 pounds is the recommended static (while driving) weight, you can put roughly 800lbs on that rack though when parked, so a Simpson III ARB tent works great on it. Than having other gear up front over the freedom panel area can still work with the cargo (sunroof insert). The dual isolator kits are also recommended for extended off road travel and heavier loads. Combine that with AEV corner guards and yourself a very secure/ stout setup. The Rotopax mount easy enough to that rack as well as a hi-lift/ axe/shovel/ cargo buckles for securing gear. All those mounts have locking knobs too. Inside gear: If you haven’t checked out Scott's white JK yet, take a look. He has an AEV setup on that truck. The inside has a nice load floor installed for hauling gear/ ARB fridge/ and doubles as a sleeping platform if needed. Try to keep your gear anchored to the floor/ read: lower Center of gravity. But lighter items can be secured to the roll bar inside as well. A CO2 (POWERTANK) is my secondary air source and is mounted to the roll bar out of the way.
Under the Hood: Viair makes a nice compressor that you can mount under the hood. Continuous duty is the way to go. S POD/ Source is a nice way to keep all of your wiring at bay. The interior switch panel runs into your engine bay through a pre-terminated wiring harness to a well thought out relay bank. This makes wiring those lights/ acc's a breeze. A dual battery setup would also be my preference for a longer trip. Isolate your primary battery for starting the vehicle and all other acc's off your secondary battery.
Bumpers: I personally run an ARB bumper up front with a WARN winch. I only run an 8000, but also run an ARB snatch block to help with pulling power. Really a 9000lb winch is the ideal setup for this truck. The ARB will also fit that. However, I do prefer full coverage as the ARB offers, but the Expedition One front and rear bumpers are great quality!!! The rear bumper is compatible with the GOBI rack's rear mounting (AEV rear is not and requires a drill application bracket), but looks like you have plans for a nice H2O tank back there. If you do go that route, I would relocate the low hanging muffler with an MBRP off road/ before axle/ mount. In addition, it is best to relocate your evap. canister to above the rear axle. That will keep it away from the new muffler location and out of harm's way. You'll also want to build a skid for your water tank. A custom tank isn’t all that easy to find, but I ran across a company/ Ainley who builds dog trailers can make any size tank, skids, etc.
Recovery gear: ARB's recovery gear is nice!! Also add in a winch extension line to your kit. If you are going to do any desert travling alone, it would be a good idea to get a PullPal. you can always do the burry teh spare tire truck worst case, but the pullpal is a grear tool when used properly. If you hav enothing to hook your winch line too, this is the way to go.
Lighting: PIAA and LightForce are my two favorite manufacts for quality and realiability. PIAA over LightForce, but L.F. allows you to bring along filters you can throw on to adapt to the changing weather conditions. If you want to take lighting to the next level, LED lighting is top notch!! I use Rigid Industries LED' bars on a couple of builds. These lights are bright! a 40" bar can fit up in the GOBI rack (when equiped with a LED option for the lightbar). I have done a couple and they sit back just far enough to keep from getting smacked my branches on those tight trails. That 40" bar is like turning on the sun at night!! Add 2 6" lights for the rear and or sides and you have a well lit/ clear white light surrounding your work area/ camp site. But you'll also want some ambers/ fogs up front for snow/dust/fog. They do make Amber bars also and have been used on teh UTV's and Sand Rails. They partnered up on a couple of border patrol rigs also and installed amber barson them. The bars are very low draw also!
I'm sure I could write an article on testing most of these products, but I suppose I should actually do some work today. LOL.
feel free to contact me if you want to chat more about.
BTW- If you come to CO or UT, I can recomend some scenic trails for you and your son and if time allows, show you some of them as well.
The Swiss
Expedition Leader
:sombrero: Well, you don't have the mudflaps attached to the vehicle
You lay them in front of the wheels as you would with sand tracks. In Switzerland we use rubber floor mats to get us un-stuck in snow. Put them in front of the drive wheels, they would often provide the additional traction needed to gain some momentum. For not having to stop to retrieve the mats until back on leveled or firm ground, we would attach them to a rope and drag them behind the vehicle once we got going. The advantage is that they are not as bulky and heavy as sand tracks and cheap cheap chaep. On the downside, as mats are not rigid, they cant be used to build a ramp to overcome an obstacle. And, mats are not as cool as real sand tracks; nothing screams "expo" more than some sand tracks attached to your vehicle. :elkgrin: