Anti gun legislation

tdesanto

Expedition Leader
I think they fear both nearly equally. I think the prolific nature of gun ownership is the primary issue they worry about, and how easily guns find their way into the wrong hands. No doubt, there are those who will illogically fear the gun. But, when you actually take the time to engage most of these people in discussion you'll realize that they are very aware that the gun is an inert and inanimate mechanism. They can actually grasp that thought if the issue approached properly. I think what they generally fear is the proliferation of ownership. They have a reasonable idea of how many differing types of people can simply obtain guns. They know all of these people will have differing demeanors. But, of all these things, what they know and believe with certainty is that some people will responsibly own and manage their guns, and some won't. It's the latter group they fear nearly as much as the criminal, and knowing we humans are fallible, I'm not qualified to say that this isn't an unrealistic fear.
Some of the comments here could easily be described as hardliner pro-gun rhetoric. This rhetoric, along with uneducated comments regarding the functions of our Constitution are not the way to approach or impress upon those who are trying to understand why we choose to own and enjoy our guns. They need to know we are a better reasoned group that is willing to discuss the issue rather than than begin a tirade of tired mantras and soapbox our position without listening to their concerns. When someone is attempting to win me over to a school of thought, I don't want to hear a bunch of rhetoric. I want to hear why that individual feels the way they do, and I want to hear it in their own words.

Actually, I think there is fear of the gun too...that's why there is so much legislation to restrict what you can and cannot own. Now there's discussion on limiting magazine capacity. On many weapons, there are already laws that prevent guns from having the ability to easily exchange a spent magazine with a loaded one.

As for avoiding rhetoric and hearing someone's own words, ok. I recognize that guns are already out there. They are in the hands of the criminals that wish to do harm to others. I believe that the police cannot be in all places at all times to protect all of society. I believe it is my responsibility, as a citizen, to own and carry. I believe it is my responsibility to seek proper training, to stay proficient with my firearms, and to do my part to protect myself and my family.
 

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
I'm not proposing that every citizen should carry, have you seen some of the drivers on the road?

.
Well, there's the rub. So, who isn't worthy of carrying a gun and if all citizens are afforded that right, why wouldn't it be safe for those to carry?

By the way, I'm not so sure some of the sheep dogs protecting the sheep wouldn't be better off chasing sticks and napping on the porch.
 

C-Fish

Adventurer
Well, there's the rub. So, who isn't worthy of carrying a gun and if all citizens are afforded that right, why wouldn't it be safe for those to carry?

By the way, I'm not so sure some of the sheep dogs protecting the sheep wouldn't be better off chasing sticks and napping on the porch.

No rub, personal choice.

I'd rather be surrounded by dogs than sheep...:victory:
 

xtatik

Explorer
Slander (or libel) is making false statements intent to harm or discredit. You are actually able to say or write anything that is truthful.

Slander is criminal. Speaking out against someone truthfully and factually is protected. What becomes the challenge is evidence, which is why people that are actually being truthful can still land themselves in serious trouble.

Yeah, I'm aware. This is why I used it in my example. Free speech, whether it's spoken word or black letter has limitations. You're right to point this out though, because it's surprising how many people don't understand what constitutes slander and libel.
There are a ton of exceptions and some interesting cases have come under review. Some forms of speech which could be literally interpreted as slander, aren't legally actionable and fall under freedom of expression. An example my business law professor used and I can still remember is; Bill telling people that "Joe is a **************". Joe can't sue Bill for lying and telling people that he is a male donkey. There are others, but this one stuck in my head.
 
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LACamper

Adventurer
Birth right to own a firearm? Seriously? Has it gone that far?:drool:

Yep. About 200 years ago...

And btw, we're talking about the right to own a firearm, not the right to shoot someone. You have a right to free speech, not to lie about someone else. Same thing.
 

xtatik

Explorer
And btw, we're talking about the right to own a firearm

Actually, that's not what this thread is about. No one here is advocating against the fundamental right to own guns. The keyword here is "fundamental".
What we were discussing is whether or not the mentally ill and mentally or physically incapacitated should have the right to own a firearm. We're also discussing how our society could reasonably and legally discern between these groups of people.
 

C-Fish

Adventurer
Actually, that's not what this thread is about. No one here is advocating against the fundamental right to own guns. The keyword here is "fundamental".
What we were discussing is whether or not the mentally ill and mentally or physically incapacitated should have the right to own a firearm. We're also discussing how our society could reasonably and legally discern between these groups of people.

What you're discussing is 'limiting' a person based on...

A privilege can be limited based on physical/emotional ability to perform said privilege.

Are you going to limit this guys 'right' because he doesn't have arms?
I don't think he'd agree to that...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlMz2sCDCA4&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Michael shoots his .45 with his feet[/ame]

The mentally ill will still commit the act due to our inability to single out each individual. This is in part due to our values as a country.

'The only people who have seen the end to Human destruction are deceased'. You can quote me on this...
 

Mr. Leary

Glamping Excursionaire
It seems that they are afraid of the guns themselves and not specifically afraid of the criminals instead.

Yep. As Scott mentioned, ignorance breeds contempt. The problem is, whenever the topic of dicussion that pushes for additional training requirements, etc. the discussion is always drowned in the same tired rhetoric. One side is trying to discuss further training regimens, the other is preaching about second amendment rights and cold dead hands. The topic becomes unapproachable, and thats probably the biggest issue that ticks me off.

Like almost everything in human life, it is about control. Control is exerted in society through a thousand different methods. For many people that are anti-gun, weapons elicit fear and define a shift in physical power (control).

It is the same with many things. There are conservatives that hate Mexicans and Mexico. They are fearful of the lack of control at our borders. They have never visited Mexico yet they fear it/them, they speak out against the unknown. Guns for some liberals, Mexico for some conservatives. Both fears are born out of ignorance and as a result the fearful lack actual experience from which to form logical opinion and facilitate logical behavior.

In my opinion, ignorance is the greatest threat to America. People on both ends of the ticket are plagued by it. They only expose themselves to the rhetoric of the people that claim to address their fears. In the meantime, the globe has moved on- they have stolen the cheese.

Yep. However, there are some of us who feel the need to further regulate gun ownership despite the lack of ignorance. I'm scared of crazy people with guns. I'm scared of criminals with guns. I want to make it easier for the cops to do their jobs... and BTW, will continue to concealed carry and submit willingly to any additional training mandates. As Tony said, you can never spend too much time training.

Yep. About 200 years ago...

And btw, we're talking about the right to own a firearm, not the right to shoot someone. You have a right to free speech, not to lie about someone else. Same thing.

Blah, blah, blah. I've heard it all before.... Same.... Tired.... Rhetoric.
 

xtatik

Explorer
What you're discussing is 'limiting' a person based on...

A privilege can be limited based on physical/emotional ability to perform said privilege.

Are you going to limit this guys 'right' because he doesn't have arms?
I don't think he'd agree to that...
YouTube - Michael shoots his .45 with his feet

The mentally ill will still commit the act due to our inability to single out each individual. This is in part due to our values as a country.

'The only people who have seen the end to Human destruction are deceased'. You can quote me on this...

Interestiing video. A very adaptable guy. No, I certainly wasn't referring to guys like this when referencing physical limitations. Blindness or other vision problems might preclude some people though.
 

xtatik

Explorer
Like almost everything in human life, it is about control. Control is exerted in society through a thousand different methods. For many people that are anti-gun, weapons elicit fear and define a shift in physical power (control).

It is the same with many things. There are conservatives that hate Mexicans and Mexico. They are fearful of the lack of control at our borders. They have never visited Mexico yet they fear it/them, they speak out against the unknown. Guns for some liberals, Mexico for some conservatives. Both fears are born out of ignorance and as a result the fearful lack actual experience from which to form logical opinion and facilitate logical behavior.

In my opinion, ignorance is the greatest threat to America. People on both ends of the ticket are plagued by it. They only expose themselves to the rhetoric of the people that claim to address their fears. In the meantime, the globe has moved on- they have stolen the cheese.


Overall, it sounds like you're not afraid of guns, but afraid of knuckleheads. If I read you right, then it's hard to argue with you on that. I don't like knuckleheaded, irresponsible, lazy people either who aren't willing to get the proper training and put in the practice time. In fact, no matter how much I might go to the range I have never felt like I've had too much practice.

FTWx2
 

ColoradoBill

Adventurer
Every time this gun control issue comes up I like to reference this video. I keep putting off getting my CCW and I pray I don't regret not getting it as soon as possible.



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WznSA4EU1Gk&feature=related"]YouTube - 2nd Amendment Protection[/ame]
 

007

Explorer
The danger is not that a lunatic with a gun kills a few people.

The danger is that a lunatic with an army kills masses of unarmed people.

I'll take my chances with the former to insure against the latter.

6 million Jews taught me that.
 

C-Fish

Adventurer
the danger is not that a lunatic with a gun kills a few people.

The danger is that a lunatic with an army kills masses of unarmed people.

I'll take my chances with the former to insure against the latter.

6 million jews taught me that.

Word!!!
 

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