Apparently legitimate new Defender information
- Thread starter Jonathan Hanson
- Start date
BajaTaco said:
I wish I could say that I was excited about the news of the Defender coming back to the USA. The sad news is that the current level of quality coming out of Land Rover/Ford is horrible. Fit and finish, body detail and rust problems have plauged the Land Rover line up in Europe. The thinking that they will base alot of the production ideas on the LR3 is evan more frightening. The LR3 is the lowest rated SUV in the market. How do they think they are going to compete with the marks that are currently for sale. I hate to say it, but many of the current jeeps and some of the prospective jeep models that are going to be produced will kick the ******** out of the LR models.
With the current line up of motors they are anticipating, give up on the idea of finding spares in 3rd world countries. Or a few years down the road when they realize they aren't selling the amount that makes them profitable.
I have loved Land Rovers ever since I saw my first one while living in Argentina. Since then, I always have had one(most of the time more) in some form or another. It killed me that when my sister asked me about buying the LR3 that I had to recommend not getting it. She bought one anyway, so I will have to see first hand how it does. I hope for their sake it does OK.Since the dealership is 2 hours away it should make for some interesting towing.
I hope they prove me wrong.
Blair
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Jonathan Hanson
Supporting Sponsor
Blair, this is a persistent situation, and one that doesn't often get addressed honestly by either "side."
It's true that Land Rover's QC is in the garbage. No one can reasonably deny that. I often hear the argument, "Oh, they're only unreliable if you just drive them on the road. The harder you use them, the more reliable they are." C'mon. And yes, I know there are Disco owners out there with 200,000 miles on their trucks and not one visit to the dealer. But we all know that's statistically a fraction.
The New York Times recently published a graph of vehicle makes according to long-term reliability. Land Rover was so far off to the left that a friend quippped, "It's like a class picture and Land Rover is the kid with really bad B.O."
Many of the problems experienced by LR owners seem to be ancillaries such as power window, lock, and mirror systems and sophisticated ABS and traction control systems. The simpler Defenders seem to do better than the Discovery/Range Rover models. But there's also no doubt that all Land Rovers suffer more than their share of early major component failures such as transmissions, and degrade generally faster than they should. When I read about East Coast Rovers doing a frame-up "restoration" on a ten-year-old Defender 90, I can only shake my head.
However, and it's a huge however, Land Rovers instill an enormous amount of customer loyalty, and this can't all be attributed to image. The fact is that when Land Rovers work they work better than just about anything else on the road - as you obviously know. They are inevitably in the forefront of developing new technology. Range Rovers had all-coil suspension in 1970 - it took Toyota over 20 years to climb on that bus. There is no manufacturer better at combining comfortable accommodation with true off-road ability. That might be why so many owners are willing to put up with the problems.
But I don't understand why LR under Ford has not been able to improve - except that they keep adding more and more complex systems. It's as if they're trying to get out of the hole they're in by digging another hole next to it and filling in the first hole with dirt from the next one they're digging themselves into . . .
It could be done. Jaguar did it, accomplishing one of the most spectacular turnarounds in reliability in automotive history. But I don't know what it will take to spur it.
I've often said, if only Land Rover could subcontract Toyota to build their vehicles, they'd own the market.
It's true that Land Rover's QC is in the garbage. No one can reasonably deny that. I often hear the argument, "Oh, they're only unreliable if you just drive them on the road. The harder you use them, the more reliable they are." C'mon. And yes, I know there are Disco owners out there with 200,000 miles on their trucks and not one visit to the dealer. But we all know that's statistically a fraction.
The New York Times recently published a graph of vehicle makes according to long-term reliability. Land Rover was so far off to the left that a friend quippped, "It's like a class picture and Land Rover is the kid with really bad B.O."
Many of the problems experienced by LR owners seem to be ancillaries such as power window, lock, and mirror systems and sophisticated ABS and traction control systems. The simpler Defenders seem to do better than the Discovery/Range Rover models. But there's also no doubt that all Land Rovers suffer more than their share of early major component failures such as transmissions, and degrade generally faster than they should. When I read about East Coast Rovers doing a frame-up "restoration" on a ten-year-old Defender 90, I can only shake my head.
However, and it's a huge however, Land Rovers instill an enormous amount of customer loyalty, and this can't all be attributed to image. The fact is that when Land Rovers work they work better than just about anything else on the road - as you obviously know. They are inevitably in the forefront of developing new technology. Range Rovers had all-coil suspension in 1970 - it took Toyota over 20 years to climb on that bus. There is no manufacturer better at combining comfortable accommodation with true off-road ability. That might be why so many owners are willing to put up with the problems.
But I don't understand why LR under Ford has not been able to improve - except that they keep adding more and more complex systems. It's as if they're trying to get out of the hole they're in by digging another hole next to it and filling in the first hole with dirt from the next one they're digging themselves into . . .
It could be done. Jaguar did it, accomplishing one of the most spectacular turnarounds in reliability in automotive history. But I don't know what it will take to spur it.
I've often said, if only Land Rover could subcontract Toyota to build their vehicles, they'd own the market.
gjackson
FRGS
I have also heard this rumor direct from someone who went to the line in Solihull and said that it had restarted and was putting out Defenders with stronger bulkheads and doors (the 2 things needed for DOT registration). Also said it was the full line: 90s, 110s and 130s. And they were getting diesels, in this case the duratorq from the ford transit van (to go with the 6 speed ford transit transmission).
Hope it is true. Further hope that they release a rubicon competitor with lockers.
cheers
Hope it is true. Further hope that they release a rubicon competitor with lockers.
cheers
devinsixtyseven
Explorer
I hope it will work well with chrome spinny dubs.gjackson said:
Any pricing information yet? I remain skeptical that this will be an affordable alternative to anything currently available, regardless how well it performs. I have never seen a late-model Gelandewagon offroad, whether this is because the ticket price overrules capability, or because I imagine the average buyer at that price abhors dirt
.I hope they are priced like any other Ford...tho I'd rather have an "original", like the one from TGMBC
.-Sean
pwc
Explorer
I hear they will come with a warp core and photon torpedos.
So is there any corroberating evidence here, from another source? The other links said nothin about Defender in the US in 2007. All I've ever seen is the change to the line they are making (that everyone who wants the world to never change growns about) in 2010 and the possible reintroductiont then.
So is there any corroberating evidence here, from another source? The other links said nothin about Defender in the US in 2007. All I've ever seen is the change to the line they are making (that everyone who wants the world to never change growns about) in 2010 and the possible reintroductiont then.
Dmarchand
Adventurer
The little reality voice in my head won't stop...
No way are they going to bring them back and if they do, they will be over $40K.
I know it's a hot topic and all. But look at where the brand is today in the states. Luxo image machines based on some symblance of nostalgia. The only qualified reason to bring the defender here is simply to rekindle that nostalgia. They would never be able to sell them in quantities that would justify the expenses. Look at the numbers from 10+ years ago. They would face the same problems they did then, today in our market.
Plus, the existing brand image or perceived brand image to offroaders, those most likely to buy, would not fly. Most perceive the LR brand as high cost and poor quality. Like it or not, brand lovers of Toys and Jeeps are not going to jump ship if they come ashore. Really, only those of us with vested interest in LR's today would buy a new defender model here. Even then, many of the older model rover owners are going to wait for second hand, devalued "new" defenders.
I just don't see it.
No way are they going to bring them back and if they do, they will be over $40K.
I know it's a hot topic and all. But look at where the brand is today in the states. Luxo image machines based on some symblance of nostalgia. The only qualified reason to bring the defender here is simply to rekindle that nostalgia. They would never be able to sell them in quantities that would justify the expenses. Look at the numbers from 10+ years ago. They would face the same problems they did then, today in our market.
Plus, the existing brand image or perceived brand image to offroaders, those most likely to buy, would not fly. Most perceive the LR brand as high cost and poor quality. Like it or not, brand lovers of Toys and Jeeps are not going to jump ship if they come ashore. Really, only those of us with vested interest in LR's today would buy a new defender model here. Even then, many of the older model rover owners are going to wait for second hand, devalued "new" defenders.
I just don't see it.
gjackson
FRGS
I didn't post up when I first heard about it because there have been so many rumors that have gone before. My source is somewhat reliable, but don't bank on it until you see them at the dealerships!
The Land Rover rumor will is almost as reliable as the cars themselves!! :snorkel:
cheers
The Land Rover rumor will is almost as reliable as the cars themselves!! :snorkel:
cheers
jingram
Adventurer
I'm not so sure I agree. If it was priced competitively with the JK then I think it would sell to the masses. The minute that they start pricing it upwards of the Jeep, it will not. The reality is that an entry level defender should be priced like an entry level JK, right around 20k, with them topping out near 30k.
Will LR America move this upmarket, almost certainly, and then wonder why the product failed in the marketplace.
Will Ford push this downmarket to compete with the Jeep? I wouldn't count on it anytime soon with the financial hardships they are dealing with. Ironic considering how DC can't produce enough JKs yet the rest of their product line is sitting on the lot.
Hell, if Ford even rebranded the vehicle and used slightly different sheet metal to move it downmarket, I think they would have a huge hit on their hands. The Ford competitor to the Jeep. Expedition guys would jump on it and so would your average offroader Ford lover who has no real platform to work from these days.
All conjecture in the end. I am not holding my breath on this one.
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DBS311
Adventurer
If Ford can't even bring back the Bronco to compete with the Jeep, FJ Cruiser, Xterra, etc. market then I don't see them bringing the Defender back at the 20K-30K pricepoint. Bronco lovers have been begging Ford for years to no avail.
My guess is they will take the G500 route. Talk about how it was a military vehicle, legendary off road, etc. and then sell it for 60+K. Then again, if it does come with a warp core and photon torps, it might be worth the higher price. Add in a food replicator and you wouldn't even have to pack food or water for extended travel.
My guess is they will take the G500 route. Talk about how it was a military vehicle, legendary off road, etc. and then sell it for 60+K. Then again, if it does come with a warp core and photon torps, it might be worth the higher price. Add in a food replicator and you wouldn't even have to pack food or water for extended travel.
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Dmarchand
Adventurer
jingram said:
I hear you, and that is really my point. Like it or not, the defender is considered a premium product due to the brand image. And while those of us who wheel evaluate the rig on capability, etc, Joe consumer is looking at the brand value. LR's brand value is in luxury (or some resemblance of). If the d-90 retailed for $34K and the 110 for $42K back in '93, we are talking 60K easy for a new 110 stateside.