teotwaki
Excelsior!
Thank you very much!
ARB Locker Problem
- Thread starter teotwaki
- Start date
Thank you very much!
teotwaki
Excelsior!
Agreed. At least it still operates as an open diff and the 4Runner has the ATRAC "soft-locker".
If I had to remove the whole 3rd member then I'd really be whining! :elkgrin:
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
That is a very good imagination exercise but the reality is 99% of ARB locker issues relate back to installation issues in my experience. A clean installation will result in many years of trouble free operation. This includes pressure testing installs before installation, care during seal housing installation and care and proper installation of the bulkhead fitting kits. Then you have the routing and mounting of the compressor, wiring and air supply lines. Common sense is key, I've seen them installed next to exhausts, next to moving suspension parts, out the bottom of the diff, in the diff cover, again... install is key.
I recently read a reply in which someone stated installing an ARB is no more difficult than installing a regular R&P and while I don't think the difficulty 'level' is any different I do thing the complicity of the job is. It takes special tools and at least some prior experience to verify line routing is going to clear. Some applications are obviously easier/harder than others but as a general rule I think they need more care than a standard r&p setup.
I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
Yup, if you don't get that seal housing installed right you will have issues with it in short order. It's nothing especially daunting but you can't just "slap" it together either.
teotwaki
Excelsior!
So far what I do know is:
I cannot yet conclude that the locker seals are bad or that the shop did a bad job. They have installed a lot of ARBs before and came highly recommended. My gears were already lightly worn in and the shop put new rubber in the diff itself. I know that they do perform pressure testing as that is how they discovered the bad seals the first time around.
I hope that where the copper tube is soldered in that there are no cracks.
I am wondering if the air collar can move even a tiny bit since the indexing tab is smaller than the gap it is inserted into.
What I plan to do is get the new O-ring in there and then see if I still have any problems. One of my guesses is that the old O-ring in the bulkhead fitting was sealing just enough to hold pressure but that any movement of the copper line let air leak by and into the housing.
- sometimes the locker engages and sometimes it doesn't
- when it doesn't engage the compressed air vents out through the axle's breather
- that somehow axle position or stress might be a factor
- that the rubber O-ring in the bulkhead fitting is shot
- I personally and carefully ran the air line and you can see how careful I was in this thread http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36900&highlight=ARB
- there was no air leaking where the blue line went into the bulkhead fitting. Only somewhere internal to the axle housing
- that since I still have an operating differential I don't need to pull the 3rd out just yet
I cannot yet conclude that the locker seals are bad or that the shop did a bad job. They have installed a lot of ARBs before and came highly recommended. My gears were already lightly worn in and the shop put new rubber in the diff itself. I know that they do perform pressure testing as that is how they discovered the bad seals the first time around.
I hope that where the copper tube is soldered in that there are no cracks.
I am wondering if the air collar can move even a tiny bit since the indexing tab is smaller than the gap it is inserted into.
What I plan to do is get the new O-ring in there and then see if I still have any problems. One of my guesses is that the old O-ring in the bulkhead fitting was sealing just enough to hold pressure but that any movement of the copper line let air leak by and into the housing.
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
I too hope that is the case, the bulkhead o-ring is cheap and easy to fix, seal housings rings are not :smilies27
Some other tech thoughts you might find helpful here:
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/tech_ARB_troubleshoot.html
teotwaki
Excelsior!
Thanks! I do remember the topic and that article. I have not had any diff oil pushed up to the solenoid valve in the 5 months that the locker has been installed.
If I do have to pull the 3rd I still have my complete original 3rd and a spare diff housing gasket so It will be reataively quick to get the ARB/3rd assembly back out.
teotwaki
Excelsior!
The shop that did the work did not have the O-rings there but said they will get me one. I just got off the phone with a tech at ARB and they confirmed that the air collar can shift back and forth. That at least confirms my hunch that the copper tube can shift a little under load, possibly causing the air to leak around the copper tube inside the inner part of the bad O-ring. The tech will also send me a O-ring for free in the mail. Thank you ARB!
If this does not solve things then I have to see about other issues such as the preload, that the adjuster nut is flat and not damaged with any rough surface, etc.
I'll post up again as I go along. Thanks to all for the questions and advice.
If this does not solve things then I have to see about other issues such as the preload, that the adjuster nut is flat and not damaged with any rough surface, etc.
I'll post up again as I go along. Thanks to all for the questions and advice.
teotwaki
Excelsior!
Updates:
After a number of emails and conversations with the good folks at ARB there were two problems with my locker.
Incorrect air line routing and bearings that were a little too thick. Only OEM bearings or those with the exact same measurements will work. Most common bearing kits do not have the right bearings even though they may be good quality such as Timkens. The extra bearing thickness pushes out the air collar a bit which misaligns the air ports and may also allow oil to creep in past the seals.
Here is before and after shots of the copper air line routing
BEFORE
AFTER, routed as per ARB manual
If the air line does not have any "give" to it then the air collar is unable to move back and forth around the positioning tab.
Kudos to T&J's in Orange, California for taking the locker back and reworking it at no cost to me.
After a number of emails and conversations with the good folks at ARB there were two problems with my locker.
Incorrect air line routing and bearings that were a little too thick. Only OEM bearings or those with the exact same measurements will work. Most common bearing kits do not have the right bearings even though they may be good quality such as Timkens. The extra bearing thickness pushes out the air collar a bit which misaligns the air ports and may also allow oil to creep in past the seals.
Here is before and after shots of the copper air line routing
BEFORE
AFTER, routed as per ARB manual
If the air line does not have any "give" to it then the air collar is unable to move back and forth around the positioning tab.
Kudos to T&J's in Orange, California for taking the locker back and reworking it at no cost to me.
Last edited:
teotwaki
Excelsior!
I sure hope so!!! Good excuse to plan a trip anyhow.... :elkgrin:
teotwaki
Excelsior!
I can only speak to my personal experience with the rear Toyota differential. Call ARB-USA and try to talk to Matt and see if there are any issues with the bearing selection for the front differential (clamshell style)
Koyo and SKF are the two manufacturers to get true OE sized bearings through (go to your dealer for them). Timken's are close and perfectly fine for setting up an open carrier, but with the seal housing tolerance being tight, the correct bearing is essential. Most US setup kits include the Timkens to cut cost.
Third-member setups can leak under load due to a variety of issues. Most common are banged up adjuster nuts, incorrect bearings and improper line routing. All of these affect the seal housing relationship with the journal surface while there is load and flex being added to the diff carrier. Everyone is quick to blame seals. If the seals hold air when the vehicle is stationary, your issue is elsewhere.
Third-member setups can leak under load due to a variety of issues. Most common are banged up adjuster nuts, incorrect bearings and improper line routing. All of these affect the seal housing relationship with the journal surface while there is load and flex being added to the diff carrier. Everyone is quick to blame seals. If the seals hold air when the vehicle is stationary, your issue is elsewhere.