Are US Rover lovers mad like Toyota lovers?

[Pskhaat]

I'm curious if Land/Range Rover lovers are upset at the current product offerings of the company in the US market? I am, yes, an old Toyota fan and dismayed at the products that are coming out of Toyota today.

The dumming-down of our rigs to the US market has been happening for a while now, but quite honestly there are few if any legal manufacturers whocater to my vehicle needs. I'm mad at Toyota for their recent designs, their recent engine choices, their transmission options, leather, nav screens, bling, suspension choice, etc. Are Rover lovers in the same/similar boat?

 

[BKCowGod]

I've not been a fan of Land Rover since the Disco Series 2... And it has nothing to do with Ford. Quite frankly, I have a lot of respect for the Premier Auto Group. I just wish someone would build something to compete with the Wrangler.

I also want someone to build a pickup truck with the suspension and wheelbase of the Land Rover Discovery 1, the cab and bed of the Nissan King Cab, and a smallish (3.0-4.0 or so) turbodiesel mated to a 5 speed... Is that too much to ask?

 

[gcec]

Blame the Government and domestic manufacturers. They have spent decades creating barriers to the foreign manufacturers; restrictive trade policies, alleged "safety" requirements, and colluding to block import vehicles.

Importation of 2 door 4x4s was made illegal during the '80s to protect AMC/Jeep. Then came 5 mph bumpers, air bags, etc.

Does anyone actually believe that a Defender or Toyota FJ is less safe than a Wrangler or Ford Exploder? I mean really, they're good enough for Europe, Africa, Asia, South America, and Oz - but not North America? Or maybe North Americans are just too molly-coddled.

I mean really if the issue is safety then why allow un-modified 15 or 25 year old vehicles. Why can't "failings" be remediated.

Or another example; I tried to import Smart cars into Canada in '98 - no dice, as they didn't meet "standards". Strange how once Chrysler merged into Daimler-Chrysler the vehicles suddenly start to show up on the roads. Anyone know what they changed on the vehicles? A couple of safety warning labels and Owner's Manuals.

Rant over - but this whole subject really p's me off

 

[60seriesguy]

It's not just the government and the auto makers, it our fellow Americans. We've become a nation of couch potatoes, long-range commuters, soft suburbanites. You think the people on this forum represent the mainstream? We're like museum-level ananchronisms, people who want to be self-reliant, survive in the wilderness, explore the unknown without creature comforts...

Auto-makers don't just make the market, they also respond to it. They're not just offering leather and navigation and twenty cupholders, they're also responding to the demand for such features. Look at the legions of poseur vehicles like the H3. People want to *look* tough, but they don't want the ride quality and lack of ammenities that come with most tough trucks.

I love seeing threads on all of the Land Cruiser boards of people complaining that Toyota doesn't sell the HZJ79 troop carrier in the US...like people would buy it? Sure, you'd get a handful of diehard Cruiserheads or people truly craving a Third World-spec vehicle forking up upwards of $40K for one, but MOST Americans (and that's what the automakers, Toyota and Land Rover included, are after), the ones that buy a new car every three years, wouldn't even come close to a metal coffin with a diesel engine, the ride of a Conestoga wagon, with vynil seats and nary a cupholder in sight. Toyota doesn't want people buying a car and keeping it for ten years while doing all maintenance and repairs themselves, they want the legions of couch potatoes that buy a new car every 3-4 years and have it serviced and repaired at the dealership. That's the sad truth.

 

[cruiser guy]

I also want someone to build a pickup truck with the suspension and wheelbase of the Land Rover Discovery 1, the cab and bed of the Nissan King Cab, and a smallish (3.0-4.0 or so) turbodiesel mated to a 5 speed... Is that too much to ask?

I know where a LandRover that meets the above description might be for sale with U.S. plates. PM me and I'll forward you the contact info. It's NOT mine and I have NO interest in it but I have seen it.

As for not buying a vehicle every 3-4 years, I'd like to go on record with the manufacturers that UNLESS they offer what I want I'll be driving my '82 Toyota LandCruiser diesel 20 years from now!!

 

[BKCowGod]

Man would I love to be in a position to take you up on that offer!

My next vehicle purchase is a coin flip away from a 1990 Audi Coupe quattro or 1990 BMW 325iX for a daily driver :/

 

[Scott Brady]

It's not just the government and the auto makers, it our fellow Americans. We've become a nation of couch potatoes, long-range commuters, soft suburbanites. You think the people on this forum represent the mainstream? We're like museum-level ananchronisms, people who want to be self-reliant, survive in the wilderness, explore the unknown without creature comforts...
.

Beautifully said!

I am going to make this the forum qoute...

The consumers dictate the products sold. Many say they want function, but would not be willing to give up their leather seats and latte sized cupholders.

 

[gcec]

The consumers dictate the products sold. Many say they want function, but would not be willing to give up their leather seats and latte sized cupholders.

Yeah, I love the free market argument, but that dog don't hunt. The products are out there in other markets, and people buy them. Land Rover builds Defenders and IS eager to sell them in North America. They went through a LOT of bother to create the NAS spec vehicles. Then they tried the CKD, but that went nowhere - sadly. And it isn't the consumer that prevents it happening.

For example, Chrysler and Ford have little chance of selling large numbers of full size pickups in the UK but there are some over here - because it isn't ILLEGAL to import them!! Just change the headlights, add a rear fog light, and pass the standard safety test (MOT). They don't even have to be right hand drive.

So what's the problem in North America?

It comes down to one thing - PROTECTIONISM!!

 

[60seriesguy]

Yeah, I love the free market argument, but that dog don't hunt. The products are out there in other markets, and people buy them. Land Rover builds Defenders and IS eager to sell them in North America. They went through a LOT of bother to create the NAS spec vehicles. Then they tried the CKD, but that went nowhere - sadly. And it isn't the consumer that prevents it happening.

For example, Chrysler and Ford have little chance of selling large numbers of full size pickups in the UK but there are some over here - because it isn't ILLEGAL to import them!! Just change the headlights, add a rear fog light, and pass the standard safety test (MOT). They don't even have to be right hand drive.

So what's the problem in North America?

It comes down to one thing - PROTECTIONISM!!

The products are there in other markets because the market EXISTS. Land Rover *pulled* the Defender from the US because the number of expected sales didn't justify the massive expense of meeting 98+ safety requirements. The CKD was just an exercise in publicity, that was never going to work. If Land Rover estimated huge numbers of potential buyers, they would have done it.

I don't dispute your argument for protectionism, because it does play a HUGE role in the watering down of offers, but I still believe strongly that there just isn't enough of a market to justyify the expense of launching a new model (and more importantly, because of cost), *supporting it* after the launch. The Defender was already here, and if LR hadn't had a minuscule, niche market share, they could have sucked it up and updated the safety features just like everyone else.

 

[Scott Brady]

If it is protectionism, why don't the protected satisfy the demand? Ford owns Land Rover. Chrysler and it's parent company D-Benz could bring in a stripped G-Waggon. If Toyota felt it was viable, they would just build a plant in the US to satisfy the NA market. Ford would bring in diesel, 5-speed manual, cloth seat D3's.

I am with Henry on this one. Too many Americans only want adventure on the TV or in their movies. Other than that, cush leather, XM, ac in the seats, big V8 and DUBBS baby...

At least those are my thoughts on the matter :beer:

 

[Pskhaat]

Analogy: how many Linux users are there? They certainly aren't mainstream--often considered to be the ``long-haired freaky people,'' but most every major like software business (like IBM) supports it and produced for it.

Yes, the manufacturers have every given right to put to the market what they want and cater to the big softies and make vehicles that don't match my ideals. But then again, that's what the Big 3 did in the 70s: ``all customers want big, unreliable, unstyled stinky interior goats'' and Toyota, Honda and others shocked that inaction.

It's just that the mfg's choose to ignore my segment, and I am today not convinced it has anything to do with profitability, rather just the whims and desires of the US executives thinking they have a grasp. Toyota--because they already sell 'em--could import a mass of int'l spec'd 70 or 100 series at little or no additional cost to them (especially the LC100) and sell 'em close to the cost of the existing leather bling. I have done fairly extensive CFR investigation for NHSTA rules and they just simply would not be at all complicated for a company like Toyota to make them compliant.

Again, take the international LC105 which would easily qualify for every like safety test as the LC100, but has a preferrable engine(s), axles, frame, and tranny. Someone please tell me why this couldn't be the ``poverty pack'' option when one went to buy an LC? It doesn't even require retooling or shipping changes, they're all coming over from the same plant in Japan, just throw the LC100 airbags in, and drive a couple dozen LC105s on the boat.

Yes, they have the right to sell to the masses, and I have the right to ignore that market and keep hoping for something better. What makes me mad is that there doesn't appear to be anything better.

Ford has the world of options open to them for Rovers and even produce desirable models worldwide, are people really saying Ford doesn't have the resources to bring them nationally? I just find that hard to believe.

 

[60seriesguy]

If it is protectionism, why don't the protected satisfy the demand? Ford owns Land Rover. Chrysler and it's parent company D-Benz could bring in a stripped G-Waggon. If Toyota felt it was viable, they would just build a plant in the US to satisfy the NA market. Ford would bring in diesel, 5-speed manual, cloth seat D3's.

I am with Henry on this one. Too many Americans only want adventure on the TV or in their movies. Other than that, cush leather, XM, ac in the seats, big V8 and DUBBS baby...

At least those are my thoughts on the matter :beer:

He, he, you should have seen the Toyota salesguy's face when I asked for steel wheels on my wife's 4Runner...he just couldn't believe I didn't want the 17" alloys that came stock on it. I was there again yesterday looking at an FJ Cruiser and when the guy tried to gauge my interest, I answered (truthfully): "If you guys offered a diesel option I would buy one today."...

He looked at my like I was nuts....

 

[Pskhaat]

I called Toyota USA customer service one time and asked almost verbatim ``why does your Land Cruiser model not come in a manual transmission.'' I got an I don't know response and took my # for someone to call me back. Well, I indeed got a return call about a week later...the response was (again almost verbatim):

``Sir, we have looking into your customer case #<blah> and it appears as though almost 100% of our customers bought Land Cruisers with automatic transmissions,'' he proclaimed.

``Really, let me guess, you show exactly 100% of them since 1988?'' I asked.

``Why, yes, something like that.''

Point of the matter is Toyota only had auto trannies from 1988+. Obviously there data was self-perpetuating, there was no statistical measure to see how many would have auto vs. manual. It may have been John Maynard Keynes (?) who stated the presence of a product creates a market for it.

 

[cruiser guy]

I called Toyota USA customer service one time and asked almost verbatim ``why does your Land Cruiser model not come in a manual transmission.'' I got an I don't know response and took my # for someone to call me back. Well, I indeed got a return call about a week later...the response was (again almost verbatim):

``Sir, we have looking into your customer case #<blah> and it appears as though almost 100% of our customers bought Land Cruisers with automatic transmissions,'' he proclaimed.

``Really, let me guess, you show exactly 100% of them since 1988?'' I asked.

``Why, yes, something like that.''

Point of the matter is Toyota only had auto trannies from 1988+. Obviously there data was self-perpetuating, there was no statistical measure to see how many would have auto vs. manual. It may have been John Maynard Keynes (?) who stated the presence of a product creates a market for it.

Well perhaps the large influx of Japanese domestic market LandCruisers coming into Canada will cause some head scratching in the boardrooms of Toyota Canada! There will soon be more JDM 'Cruisers in Canada than there are FJ80's or whatever! If THAT doesn't cause Toyota Canada to say "Gee, I didn't know folks actually WANT a diesel and some even WANT a manual tranny then I don't know what will.
Folks are putting up with right hand drive, harder parts acqusition, long wait for the truck from the time of ordering, hassles from the safety Nazi's etc. etc. all to drive one of these trucks. That's got to make someone in their ivory towers think!

 

[gcec]

I don't dispute your argument for protectionism, because it does play a HUGE role in the watering down of offers, but I still believe strongly that there just isn't enough of a market to justyify the expense of launching a new model

You missed my entire point. Why does there have to be a US model? Why can't Land Rover just make the Defender, as it is sold everywhere else in the world, available to US dealers. Because the LAW doesn't allow it.

And you're right when you say "there just isn't enough of a market to justify the expense of launching a new model". Especially when import quotas mean they can only sell a certain number of units per year. No point bringing in a low margin utility vehicle when it means that they can sell one less high margin vehicle. I think the US market influence is a key reason that the Discovery III has been dumbed down so much. Land Rover looked and said; we're allowed x number of vehicles into the US, we need to maximise our profits on those vehicles, so we need to appeal to the broadest section of the public - aim for the soccer mom. Hey presto - Discovery III.

However, remove the quotas and the prohibitive "safety requirements" and you'll be able to buy any vehicle you choose. It has NOTHING to do with consumer demand - because it is not a free market economy. It has been structured to protect the North American auto industry and deny consumers their right to make their own decisions.

Did I mention that this whole topic REALLY upsets me