Autoblog drives diesel Wranger, Grand Cherokee

thetonka

Observer
I really don't get the anti-diesel emissions control bent of this thread in particular, and this site in general. What is wrong with cleaning up exhaust? I mean really?

In my opinion .... there is nothing wrong with cleaning up diesel emissions. I grew up in LA and am very thankful of what AQMD did to that region.

HOWEVER, CARB and EPA have lost their way. They are no longer about cleaning up emissions, they are about compliance. And it does not matter if the performance of the compliance results in valid, expected, or justifiable results.

I got a clue into this back in the 80s when my dad bought my brother a 1965 Willys Pickup(I had a '52). The truck had to be smogged. The Chevy 350 V8 in it had a 650 CFM holley carb on it. Unfortunately that specific carb was NOT on the right list. So my dad found one that was on the list. He put a 1000 CFM double accelerator pump racing carb on it. It literally spewed raw gas out the exhaust and would haze an entire intersection during accelerations. Now it was fun, but no way it was cleaner than the little carb. Truck passed with the giant carb on it, because it was on the list.

I have plenty of stories about this kind of thing. And as CARB goes so does the EPA. I'm still a bit pissed that I could not put a diesel in my wife's Grand Cherokee. Would have been able to build a Grand Cherokee that got 30 MPG and could run renewable locally produced Bio Diesel, but there are no diesel engines that could legally be installed in a Grand Cherokee for use in California.


When the EPA and CARB start taking an interest in the performance of their regulations I'll support them, until then I keep reminding myself that the entire diesel emissions strategy currently on the books in California was written by a man who LIED about his credentials, CARB knew about the lies, and the result was a report that contains MASSIVE exaggerations.


I don't think anyone has a problem with cleaning up diesel emissions. If you think the EPA and CARB put cleaning up emissions over their compliance agenda you are blind to reality.
 

chrismc

Adventurer
I really don't get the anti-diesel emissions control bent of this thread in particular, and this site in general. What is wrong with cleaning up exhaust? I mean really?
Agreed (you're not the only one). My only beef with the new diesel technology is that it makes the engines incompatible with high-percentage biodiesel.

I don't think anyone has a problem with cleaning up diesel emissions. If you think the EPA and CARB put cleaning up emissions over their compliance agenda you are blind to reality.

The EPA/CARB do not have unlimited resources, so they have to create standards that do the greatest good while still being manageable. As soon as they start looking at things on a case-by-case basis as you suggest, the resources they require to do their job will skyrocket. Perhaps you should write your congressmen and ask them to bump up the funding for EPA and CARB so that they can do independent emissions testing and studies for every configuration that someone thinks will run clean and meet their emissions goals.

Its no different than what I deal with at work. I manage a computer network of a couple thousand PC's. There is no way possible to test every piece-of-crap software package that users think they have to have installed on their computers, so we have a published list of approved software that has been thoroughly tested and we know works well without causing damage.
 
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htek

Observer
I really don't get the anti-diesel emissions control bent of this thread in particular, and this site in general. What is wrong with cleaning up exhaust? I mean really?

I have no problem with clean emissions - just the way it's being brought about and the draconian regulations.

I'm not sure about Oregon, but here in California I am sick and tired of being told what to do and how to handle anything even related to an internal combustion engine regardless of how efficient it is or isn't. CARB Compliant "spill proof" gas cans anyone? I am just waiting for CARB to mandate a emissions standards for my flatulence.

Sorry, getting this thread derailed.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
The inability to run bio-diesel is about the last straw. The inability to use international grade fuel is also just not acceptable. The requirement to use an after-treatment fluid is WAY out of line.

Most people would agree that Euro V or Euro III-IV emissions would have been more than enough.

I would like to see a comparison of emissions based on emissions per mile. With diesel vehicles getting FAR better mileage I think the problem is not as big as they are telling us. So if everyone in the USA instantly switched to diesel, that would be something like a 30% loss in fuel sales right? I think there is more going on than just emissions. Oh yeah....and diesel vehicles generally last a lot longer, so we would buy fewer vehicles for year? MMMMmmmm
 

Bill Beers

Explorer
...
Sorry, getting this thread derailed.

You're right. I should have put that comment somewhere else.

That being said, I do like the specs on both the jeeps that haven reported above. The Wrangler is of particular interest!
 

htek

Observer
Perhaps you should write your congressmen and ask them to bump up the funding for EPA and CARB so that they can do independent emissions testing and studies for every configuration that someone thinks will run clean and meet their emissions goals.

First, the last thing the CARB and EPA need is more of my money (just my opinion).

Second, if my vehicle passes the emissions test, why does it matter WHAT intake, exhaust, or header I have? They don't need to do independent testing on every aftermarket product, they just need to enforce the emissions standard. Seriously, can anyone help me understand the logic here - If the smog guy can't find a CARB number in my intake or header, I fail the visual; regardless of how clean my vehicle runs. How does that make ANY sense?
 

thetonka

Observer
The EPA/CARB do not have unlimited resources, so they have to create standards that do the greatest good while still being manageable. As soon as they start looking at things on a case-by-case basis as you suggest, the resources they require to do their job will skyrocket. Perhaps you should write your congressmen and ask them to bump up the funding for EPA and CARB so that they can do independent emissions testing and studies for every configuration that someone thinks will run clean and meet their emissions goals.

CARB does do case by case evaluation. Each instance costs the manufacturer a lot of money. And each instance is based on model and year only. So if you have a 1/2 ton pickup truck with a 6L V8 you have to pay for the CARB approval. If you have a 1/2 ton SUV with a 6L V8 that is a different model and year and you have to pay for a different CARB approval, regardless if the engine and transmission are EXACTLY the same.

I have had talks with people in the industry. I got to talk to an engineer at a company that makes Natural Gas and Propane retrofit kits in Southern California. They sell pretty much ALL of their products in South America. He told me it would cost them $50,000 per model/year combination to get CARB certification.

When the head of CARB was asked why it cost so much and took a long time the answer was "We have to ensure it won't violate the vehicle manufacturers warranty".:Wow1:


Think about it this way. If the emissions testing was based on real world performance everything would be simpler and more effective. Instead of making test facilities go through lots of training and buy updates to the books(which contradict the real world) establish a real world performance test. If you vehicle is supposed to produce between less than X emissions and it does you pass, no equipment requirements. Go a bit further, if you vehicle produces less than 1/2 X emissions you get to pay less in registration or get to drive in the carpool lane alone.

Performance based testing, less complicated more effective than compliance inspections and testing. With the incentive to produce less you would also see a big boom in the aftermarket industry to make kits and parts to produce less. AND it would make it legal for people to swap in better engines and transmissions to get better mileage, performance, and lower emissions.

I would love to have a mid sized SUV with a diesel and a 6-speed manual like the Jeeps this thread is about. I've looked, there are no diesel engines that are legal to put in mid sized SUVs in California, even though it would result in better mileage and with Bio Diesel lower emissions.


I had to smog my 2001 F350 this year. The sticker on the engine says it needs a Catalytic Converter. It did not have one. I spent a lot of time and money trying to get answers to what it needed(CARB was USELESS). I finally got one, put it on and went to the check station. Turns out even though the sticker on the engine(mandated by the state of California) says the truck needs a Cat, the CARB official emission book says the truck DOES NOT. How is that making ANYTHING better?

The EPA/CARB do not have unlimited resources, so they have to create standards that do the greatest good while still being manageable. As soon as they start looking at things on a case-by-case basis as you suggest, the resources they require to do their job will skyrocket. Perhaps you should write your congressmen and ask them to bump up the funding for EPA and CARB so that they can do independent emissions testing and studies for every configuration that someone thinks will run clean and meet their emissions goals.

Its no different than what I deal with at work. I manage a computer network of a couple thousand PC's. There is no way possible to test every piece-of-crap software package that users think they have to have installed on their computers, so we have a published list of approved software that has been thoroughly tested and we know works well without causing damage.

Think of it this way. A new policy. Let them install anything they want. If they do this and the computer acts up you wipe the drive and install the standardized image for their system you have. If they let only you install SW you will support that configuration.

Performance based policy. Instead of getting deep into every single thing every one does, make them pay for their decisions and start them over from scratch if their performance(SW choices) create failures.

This is what I did when I administered a high volume UNIX and Windows production environment.
 
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SSF556

SE Expedition Society
The inability to run bio-diesel is about the last straw. The inability to use international grade fuel is also just not acceptable. The requirement to use an after-treatment fluid is WAY out of line.

Most people would agree that Euro V or Euro III-IV emissions would have been more than enough.

I would like to see a comparison of emissions based on emissions per mile. With diesel vehicles getting FAR better mileage I think the problem is not as big as they are telling us. So if everyone in the USA instantly switched to diesel, that would be something like a 30% loss in fuel sales right? I think there is more going on than just emissions. Oh yeah....and diesel vehicles generally last a lot longer, so we would buy fewer vehicles for year? MMMMmmmm


Eventually the world will be running on ULSD...it is a must if they want to buy European or American built Class 8 trucks. Europe is on the way and so is Australia. Eventually you will not be able to buy older diesel trucks, just a fact of life. There are just not enough used trucks in the marketplace to make up for demand. You will need to convert to ULSD or not have trucks.

The major diesel engine builders can't not support different engines for different parts of the world. It is not a viable business plan.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Its going to be interesting to see how long it will take to transition the world to USLD? 5-10-20 years for a total fleet replacement.

For the most part I don't have a problem with ULSD. Most of the older engines are compatible enough with it.

I do think not being able to use bio-diesel is shooting yourself in the foot.
 

thetonka

Observer
Its going to be interesting to see how long it will take to transition the world to USLD? 5-10-20 years for a total fleet replacement.

For the most part I don't have a problem with ULSD. Most of the older engines are compatible enough with it.

I do think not being able to use bio-diesel is shooting yourself in the foot.

My 7.3L powerstroke HATES it. I run additive in every tank, and keep looking for a good reliable source of BioD.
 

thetonka

Observer
Eventually the world will be running on ULSD...it is a must if they want to buy European or American built Class 8 trucks. Europe is on the way and so is Australia. Eventually you will not be able to buy older diesel trucks, just a fact of life. There are just not enough used trucks in the marketplace to make up for demand. You will need to convert to ULSD or not have trucks.

My F350 has 260K on it and I plan on selling it ....... never! :smiley_drive:
 
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orangeTJ

Explorer
I think the euro diesel Rubicon uses the 3.73 final drive. That's because the diesel doesn't rev as high as the gas engine. With a 4.10 final drive, you'd have a diesel with 55 mph top speed. The diesel produces enough torque to pull the 3.73 at low rpm.

Yep.

Same reason the Duramax/Allison trucks only can be had with 3.73, whereas gassers with the 6.0L have 4:10s.

My dually D/A hauls &*^@ with the camper and while towing with 3.73s.
 

uzj100

Adventurer
Come on Jeep. Get out of your on way. This is the only vehicle I would even consider of all the new offroad choices. Otherwise, I will stick with 100 series with 177k miles. You can do it.
 

Dan Grec

Expedition Leader
My god, what a joke.

Current North American Wrangler:
15/19 mpg

CRD Wrangler:
28/36 mpg

A complete joke.

-Dan

P.S. Maybe $6/gal will be a good thing after all ?
 

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