Battery degradation, Motortrend article Ernst & Young data
- Thread starter life_w_vagabonds
- Start date
When the public sees 20 year old EVs with original paks, they will believe it about new EVs - but nobody keeps one that long except old guys like me because its the cheapest cash answer to keep transportation anyway we can.
Everybody else trades off their headache to move into a newer car to keep up with current fashion. And currently, the market has a lot of 45k EVs needing a pak worn out by fast charging. Those owners dont want to keep them longer to drive out their expense, same as an ICE vehicle.
And, yes, Im that guy getting a reman transmission because its my cheapest solution. Some other used truck would cost double. I know what Im getting into, i sold them and hybrid paks at an auto parts store. BTW, Im not anti solar or lithium, wear a solar since the 1990's and bought into two different brands of power tools. The tech works in small scale, we are at the early adopter phase in autos. That means high discretionary cash to buy into the tech.
With 40% of the money supply introduced in the last five years, a lot of us have dropped out of the game.
Everybody else trades off their headache to move into a newer car to keep up with current fashion. And currently, the market has a lot of 45k EVs needing a pak worn out by fast charging. Those owners dont want to keep them longer to drive out their expense, same as an ICE vehicle.
And, yes, Im that guy getting a reman transmission because its my cheapest solution. Some other used truck would cost double. I know what Im getting into, i sold them and hybrid paks at an auto parts store. BTW, Im not anti solar or lithium, wear a solar since the 1990's and bought into two different brands of power tools. The tech works in small scale, we are at the early adopter phase in autos. That means high discretionary cash to buy into the tech.
With 40% of the money supply introduced in the last five years, a lot of us have dropped out of the game.
Ex Animo
Member
Where are reading that there are a ton of EVs with bad batteries at 45K? Those would be under warranty (100K, 8 years for most manufactures) so they would be replaced if they went bad.
Metro classifieds show lots of hybrids with miles. Nobody is saying they are bad, which is the point. A hybrid hides it well because it has a small ICE engine to keep going, that is where the issues lie. Those paks have set the curve for not lasting as long, the industry does include them in the overall category. A hybrid pak isn't much different than an EV, new ones are improved but having to publish articles to tell us that paks "are expected" to last 100,000 miles doesn't mean they do. Its not helping if replacing the pak in EV's is "dealer only." It's bad enough headlights on some models are that way, and as a former auto parts guy, it's was a very hard sell to tell a customer that.
What the consumer is still waiting for are EV's that can go 850 miles in one day with a recharge or not. Considering the lack of stations, and cutting off recharging at 85% to increase the availability of that port, we aren't seeing them being used for longer trips. It's no help showing a ICE generator as the only answer for tow truck operators to recharge them on the road. They charge for the 4 hour time, too. And hot charging reduces the battery life, same as it does for lead acid. I can't tell you how many times I dealt with owners who thought lead acid could be recharged in an hour, then demanded a warranty replacement when it would take 12 to properly do it. Policy is, we refused, especially with repeat abusers. The public is unfortunately underinformed on tech and required processes. With that general treatment of batteries common in the consumer public, EV's are likely to suffer and it will affect the battery life.
What the consumer is still waiting for are EV's that can go 850 miles in one day with a recharge or not. Considering the lack of stations, and cutting off recharging at 85% to increase the availability of that port, we aren't seeing them being used for longer trips. It's no help showing a ICE generator as the only answer for tow truck operators to recharge them on the road. They charge for the 4 hour time, too. And hot charging reduces the battery life, same as it does for lead acid. I can't tell you how many times I dealt with owners who thought lead acid could be recharged in an hour, then demanded a warranty replacement when it would take 12 to properly do it. Policy is, we refused, especially with repeat abusers. The public is unfortunately underinformed on tech and required processes. With that general treatment of batteries common in the consumer public, EV's are likely to suffer and it will affect the battery life.
rruff
Explorer
They can go that far with a recharge, so pick that option.
Too many downsides to EVs with excessive range. If you need that, then pick something else.
life_w_vagabonds
Explorer
Yes. Underiformed.
Ex Animo
Member
Sorry I am having a hard time tracking what you are saying. If your local paper has lots of hybrids with around 45,000 miles and bad batteries then someone is running a scam, it's not that hybrids are bad. Hybrids have been mainstream for for almost 20 years now, they are not new nor is there a lack of real world experience with them.
Also worth mentioning that a hybrid without a functioning traction battery would be noticeable the minute you test drove it, there is no "hiding it" it wouldn't drive properly.
Very, very few PHEVs have DC fast charging (you mention fast charging as an issue). Very few BEV owners DC fast charge regularly, it costs too much plus it wouldn't kill the battery in just 45,000 miles. In fact more and more the research is showing that DC fast charging may not hurt the batteries as much as previously thought if it has battery cooling as most modern EVs do. One study here.
I get wanting a vehicle you can cheaply repair yourself, I want the same thing but what you are saying about hybrids, PHEVs and BEV's just isn't based in real world facts. There are exceptions of course (i.e. the Chevy bolt and it's early battery issues) but again, hybrids are not new technology, there are plenty of BEV's with well over 200K miles now and they all show that it's a proven technology.
From car and Driver
From JD Power
ThundahBeagle
Well-known member
I got a reman transmission as well. Have to ask: is it cheaper than a new car, do I want a new payment (and excise tax and higher insurance), and, how long will the rest of the vehicle last.
ThundahBeagle
Well-known member
I'm not so sure consumers are waiting for an EV with 850 mile range. 500, or even a solid 400 would be comfortable to most people
life_w_vagabonds
Explorer
They aren’t forgetting, once the charge rate starts to taper you leave. Charging on a long trip is a little bit of strategy if you need to make ground fast. The Cannonball run teams worked that out. If you are charging while you’re getting lunch or something let her eat. My 3 charges faster than BWW can deliver wings
Different manufacturers have different charge curves, based on their own degradation data. They are hedging against warranty claims while trying to stay competitive. My model 3 charges faster than it did when I bought it, it was an OTA update.
Got back a week ago from driving the Rivian to Port Townsend WA and back to Sacramento. Every charge stop we had something to do, eat or get supplies or check something out. We never sat around waiting for the charge and never charged to 100%. We left the house at 100% though, cause I was home doing stuff and charge speed doesn’t really matter at home. How long does it take a phone to charge? No one cares they’re sleep.
crazysccrmd
Observer
No one forgets that. One of the key advertising points for most EVs is exactly that statistic.
A substantial number of current EVs can do 850 miles in a day, "with a recharge" of course.
Perhaps you mean something more specific than what you wrote, but yes, many people are using EVs for longer trips.
Many EVs don't take "hours" to go from 80% to 100%, or even from 0% to 100%.
Just a few I googled quickly to get real numbers:
Model S : 32 minutes from 0% to 80%, 32 minutes to go from 80% to 100% = 1:04 from 0-100%.
Kia EV6 : 30 minutes from 0% to 80%, 25 minutes to go from 80% to 100% = 0:55 from 0-100%.
ID4 : 40 minutes from 0% to 80%, 25 minutes to go from 80% to 100%, 1:05 from 0-100%.
Of course, as one can easily see from these numbers, charging all the way to 100% is a stupid way to travel if the goal is saving time (which was the complaint).
BUT even if you want to or need to charge to 100% for some reason, it's far from standard to take "hours" to go from 80% to 100%.