Buddha.
Finally in expo white.
Just make sure that trap door is downhill from the beer trapdoor.
Best full-size 4 season composite trailer?
- Thread starter HayStax
- Start date
Raspy
Active member
Still looking for specific info on "more Rugged" The 195 has a steel box frame with 1/4" wall thickness and extruded aluminum external edge frames. Walls are 2 5/8" thick composite structures, that provide the best insulation in the business. Suspension is Cruisemaster ATX independent with around a 9,000 lb GVW. The X22 has a 1 1/2" box section, .065 wall, fully welded aluminum skeleton with corner gusseting to relieve any stress concentrations. The main frame is a perimeter design with 2 X 6 X1/4" wall high grade steel with two 5,000 lb rated torsion axles that give independent suspension. The roof is an aluminum truss design with 6" of insulation that cannot puddle. Rugged? Yep. ROA put a hot tub with water and people in it, on the roof of an X22. The most rugged I've seen. It does have a T&G interior wood cedar ceiling, but that is not structural, just to make it more beautiful as a cabin. Hot dip galvanizing is the best corrosion system there is for steel, but it is done at over 1,700 degrees and anneals steel. I have no idea where, in the US, one could get a finished steel frame, hot dip galvanized, or the cost would be to do so, but I suppose it is possible. Some of the Chinese built "Australian" trailers, such as Black Series, use galvanized frames. Multi-coat painting with Rinoliner, or equal will last a lifetime too, can be touched up or the frame modified by welding if needed, and allows a higher grade of steel heat treating. Deliberately building your one-off trailer with a heavier weight does not necessarily make it's stronger or better than a factory designed unit built for efficient heating and rough use. Modern Australian style caravans are a far cry from Indiana stickies, with much more rugged and efficient designs. Swing arm suspensions reduce the loads on the body and interior fittings by having longer travel, better damping and adjustable ride heights, compared to the archaic leaf spring systems. When towing, lighter weight and strength are the most desireable designs. When camping, higher insulation is much better than low insulation, in both cold and hot climates. On rough roads, good suspension travel and good damping significantly reduce stress on the trailer. But heavier, just for the sake of being heavier, is never a better design. Smarter is. Composite walls are used by many over the road trucks and endure millions of miles and frequent loading and unloading of thousands of pounds of cargo over years of use. Composite floors, as in the X22 were designed for rapid transit trains in Germany, without wood, to endure thousands of people a day walking on them, and the entire floor is one piece with no seams. Rugged? Absolutely. Waterproof? Yes. Insulated? yes. Heavy? No. It would be nice to get more specific information on your design to discover how it is better.
Raspy
Active member
Imperial says their trailers are rated for 40 degrees below zero. I don't think that is realistic, but zero is perfectly fine in one. I've been there while camping in 4 degrees with no problems and towing in about the same. The Imperial X22 has an aluminum skeleton that can condense moisture, but the 195 and Roamer 1 have 2 5/8" thick insulated composite walls and no wood. With people breathing inside such a nearly air tight room, moisture is bound to accumulate and cracking a window is the best way to combat moisture buildup and get fresh air. Myself and many others do not want 102" wide trailers. I won't buy one. And especially not in an off-road caravan style trailer. An 84" exterior body width, plus a few inches for fenders, is the practical size. This makes them much easier to get into tight places, stay in the lane on highways and see around while towing. If someone wants wide, they should be looking at an Airstream or a Bigfoot, or an Indiana built toy hauler, or a fifth wheel. All of those have a different purpose than a caravan and none of them that I'm familiar with, have real insulation for actual low temps, except possible the Bigfoot. I've been on roads that those would trailers not even be able to get through and I've seen them have to give up Yosemite campsites because the owner could not get into them. One of my trips, with my Black Series, was towing through Seven Mile Rim at Moab. Another was Leavitt Lake at 9,000' in a hailstorm on a washed out rocky road. With a capable trailer, one can get to those places and they are never crowded.
Raspy
Active member
Me too. I owned an Oliver LE2 for a couple of years and put 20,000 miles on it. They are well built in many ways, especially the body, but the suspension is archaic and limited. The insulation is OK and the batteries are exposed to outside temperatures which is a bad thing for lithiums in cold weather. With the rounded streamlined shape, the roof is not great for solar and the front bath is very cramped. They are considering a new model, as the original design is becoming too limited and old fashioned, but I don't know when that might happen. They are a great company and stand behind their trailers. Owners have almost a cult like relationship with each other and the brand attracts many who have never had a trailer before. They are great for a couple traveling on the highway in decent weather. They can endure hailstorms without damage and are easy to tow. They are artists with fiberglass and turn out beautiful trailers. But yes, the price is almost twice what it was, for the same trailer, a few years ago.
Obsessed2findARuggedHybid
Well-known member
Why does Xplore chassis only carry a two year warranty that does not even cover paint chips if it's so awesome? Plenty of galvanizers in the the US
Alloy
Well-known member
The comparision you make tell me you don't have a thorough understanding and experience with Rhinoliner, galvanizing, welding and how Imperial trailers are built.
102" is for the height. Headroom especially the bath/shower is horrible.
Obsessed2findARuggedHybid
Well-known member
Hello Alloy were you referring to Raspy or myself on not understanding....?
Raspy does know a ton more then I but if done properly with the right size dip tanks galvanized chassis IMAO are the best route for a off road trailer.
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Treefarmer
Active member
You're right. Making blanket statements like "more rugged" is never a good idea. We won't know how rugged any of these trailers are until we use the heck out of them for ten years or more. I would also say that using phrases like "the best insulation in the business" is not wise either. You seem to think I'm insulting the Xplore designs when I'm not. I'm actually trying to take the features I like best from both the X22 and the X195 and put them into a trailer that has a walk around queen size bed in a north/south configuration. We also are not "deliberately building" a "one off trailer with a heavier weight". Our trailer has a 9,920lb GVWR because we're using the CruiseMaster ATX 9,920lb system. We're shooting for 2,800 to 3,000 lbs of CCC. We need exceptional cold and hot weather performance, and that can end up adding some weight. It's also not "one off" because it will be available for other people to order as well, just not at the volume IO does. The people who order after us may have different needs than we have in our two person, two dog, full time RV living life and end up with different options. What else will we have? 1,920 watts of solar on top, 1,080 AH of lithium batteries, Victron components, 50 amp service, a walk anywhere fiberglass roof with an RV Armor lifetime monolithic coating applied on top of it, high density foam on both the inside and the outside of every structural metal beam to reduce thermal bridging, 3.5+" walls/floor, 6+" roof, a full coverage aluminum skid plate that is also insulated, 12v tank heaters, vented heat to any area where there is plumbing located beneath the cabin floor, insulation around any plumbing lines running beneath the cabin floor, high gloss UV coated color impregnated exterior fiberglass that is 107 mil thick, Truma Combi Eco Plus heat and hot water system, a warranty that specifically states this trailer can be used for fulltime living (without voiding any aspects of the warranty), and other items unique to our needs. All of this for less than $100k. So let's make a deal. I won't disparage your Xplore rigs (although I never intended to) and you won't disparage my Millersburg, IN-built Kingdom Camping rig. You do you and we'll do us.?
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Raspy
Active member
Actually, I own an X22 and I have done a lot of upgrades to it and I do know how they are built. I know it very well. I am also a welder and fabricator. So yes, I do have some related experience. Further, I've dragged it over rocks and seen what that causes. As I have clearly stated, hot dip galvanizing is the best corrosion protection there is for steel. But it is not as simple as that.
I've also owned a Black Series HQ19 with a galvanized frame, and made may upgrades to that trailer as well. Anyone who gets stuck on galvy vs painted, and can't see the many other factors in trailer design, or the steel used in each of those, has a weak argument about this subject. In a perfect world, galvy is arguably better, but there is much more to the story that you may not see if you haven't worked on both. The Imperial trailers have a very good frames and the Black Series is OK, but thin with poor welding and loose tolerances. Olivers have aluminum frames with a galvanized truck assembly that mounts the suspension system to the frame. But the suspension is terrible.
I'm not here to argue that painted means better, I'm simply saying, from extensive experience, that there is more to the story. Not sure what you mean by 102" height, when you clearly said 102" width in an earlier post. 102" interior height would be ridiculous and very limiting on where it could go, as well as making it more top heavy. Apparently you've never been in an X22 as the interior headroom is the same throughout the entire trailer including the bath. It has a V nose and the ceiling does not taper down in the front. Olivers are the ones with not enough headroom in the bath, as they do taper down in front. Black Series has the bath in the rear and the same headroom as the rest of the living area, while the tapering is over the bed.
I have to laugh at those who want to focus on small imagined issues and argue about it, without seeing any of the downsides to the design they are so adamant about. Everyone should buy any trailer they choose and get the one they think is perfect. But remember, none of them are perfect, they all have compromises. So what compromises do you prefer to live with? Black Series, for instance, are terrible trailers, but they have galvy frames, so does that make them better? No. Meanwhile, I'm out traveling around in various trailers. Camping in the wilderness, putting on lots of highway miles, upgrading the systems for actual practicality and looking at all other trailers in this category to discover the plusses and minuses of each one in the real world. If you have the ability to be curious, and the time to use some of these trailers, you might discover some interesting information.
Raspy
Active member
Yes, galvanized is arguably the best for corrosion resistance. Clearly. But there are other factors that should not limit a buying decision to that one point. Aluminum is another choice. And properly coated steel, of a higher grade and thickness are also worth considering, such as the X22 frame. As an example, Black Series has a galvy frame, but the rest of the tailer is very poorly built. I would happily take an Imperial with a coated frame, over a Black Series with a galvy frame. The corrosion system on the frame is just one factor in the overall analysis of any trailer. And by the way, Black series, OBI, Conqueror and others, with Galvy frames are made in China where environmental rules for the process are non-existent or overlooked. I don't know for sure, but the process to do it in the US, on a full sized trailer frame, is likely cost prohibitive, especially for a custom design, one off. Imagine a tank, large enough to submerge an entire trailer frame, (hot dip), in a molten zinc pool sitting at nearly 1,800 degrees. Wow. Remember too, that this process anneals steel. Anchor chains for boats, for instance, have to be derated if they are hot dipped because afterward the steel is weaker. Black Series frames are already as thin as they can get away with, while Imperial frames are thicker and of a higher grade of steel, but have a less durable corrosion system. As usual, there are compromises with every decision. Frame corrosion is not the highest factor on my list, and since I am willing to alter the frames, I have to factor that in as well. Best to get a good trailer and get out there to enjoy it.
calicamper
Expedition Leader
To be the other side of the taking trailers into remote slightly challenging locations. Many of these places will likely see a ban on trailers beyond 4x6 ish in the near future. Why?
Because in some less challenging locations they already have due to number of people frequenting the area and the need to evacuate these areas during fire season. The more people dragging the whole house and kitchen sink into these places the faster we will see restrictions being setup and or enforced.
I don’t see the trend of dragging big boxy trailers into remote places being a good thing for future vehicle accessibility to these regions.
Treefarmer
Active member
One of the funniest comments I ever saw on an off road forum was when someone referred to Black Series as "the Jayco of the off road".
On a serious note. The Black Series used to advertise their HQ19 GVWR at 10,000lbs. That always seemed too good to be true based on the quality of the brand. As an example, the X22 comes in at a GVWR of 8,820lbs, and it's a toy hauler. Having owned both, to what would you attribute the difference?
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Obsessed2findARuggedHybid
Well-known member
You forgot to mention you are in business with ROA and IO. I appreciate your knowledge and points but I take them with a grain of salt in some cases. IO has horrible customer service for some of the common folk. I have seen better warranty s on Elkhart built rigs.
There is a reason they resigned thier trailers.
They pumped those bad boys out toting -40 degree ability and sold a lot of them
There is a reason they resigned thier trailers.
They pumped those bad boys out toting -40 degree ability and sold a lot of them
Obsessed2findARuggedHybid
Well-known member
Well said! Are you sure you don't want a upgraded Roamer for 200 k instead?
Treefarmer
Active member
You definitely shouldn't buy a trailer just because of one feature or another. Just to provide more information, hot dipped galvanization is available throughout the U.S. Yes, even in Indiana.?
The temperatures aren't as extreme as you suggest at 1,800 degrees. The process can generally be done, especially for a trailer frame application, at less than 900 degrees (and often much lower than that). There have been studies showing HDG does reduce the strength of steel and increases the hardness of the steel, so that needs to be taken into account when designing for any project. Of note, there are studies showing that HDG does not significantly alter steel properties. So do you own due diligence, and hope that the next time you drive over a bridge that they used HDG steel (preferably not from China).