Best practice for running petrol Honda EU2000i at altitudes of 9,000 - 12,000

[Joe917]

We have used the propane cooktop at altitude, and the microwave. An induction cooktop is going to pull 150amps or more out of the battery bank (even on a low setting, it pulses on and off) so you will need a battery bank that can handle that or run the genny. Butane does not give enough pressure in the cold. Not an issue in cold places as the don't sell it. The problem comes when you fill somwhere hot and get Butane then drive somwhere cold and need propane!
BTW the Webasto ran fine, no excessive smoke or flame outs. Thermotop C

 

[john.travel]

Our Smev cooktop ran fine at 1400', pots get a little sooty though. Our twin 55l fixed tanks have been a pita to fill. you need to get filled from a tanker truck. Unfortunately the portable tank filling trucks are far more common. If you only have the cooktop left I would eliminate the propane completely. That is our next step.

I have the cooktop and an old Atwood 6 gallon water heater on LP still, plus my portable grill I guess if I used it. I wanted to eliminate the fixed 67 liter LP tank in favor of a couple bottles, but didn't have the space to fit the bottles (same space as the fixed tank) because they have to stand vertically. Figured it would be less brain damage to fill bottles, or buy local bottles and toss them at the boarder, worst case. I'm still not happy with my fixed tank. I can make it work, as you did, but why if I can figure way to improve it.

I'm looking at a combi (water heater/ habitation area heater) and WOW - big money! The hydronic units make lots of sense, but $$$$$$. And I looked at the Wallas X100 cooktop with the air heater top, which looks great on paper, but might spit and sputter at altitude.

I manage to research myself into a state of confusion. I wish money didn't matter ha ha To go diesel on the water heater, habitation area heat and cooktop, it's like $6,000 or so. I may not get all that done for this trip. One thing is that my water heater has the connections to run engine coolant through it and I do have an Espar D5 hydronic under the hood also. Question is, does it make sense to run coolant lines 15 back to my water heater????

Lots to consider.

 

[john.travel]

does your espar have setup for high altitude? I been shopping furnaces and was hearing of stock espar's crapping out after a few days in like Aspen, rich diesel will foul out alot quicker than rich LP and this is mostly why LP stuff does better at altitude than most others.. its cleaner burning, but as far as energy density it sucks compared to diesel/gas

I haven't bought the Espar yet. Man, that's brain damaging research ha ha. I like the Espar D4 Airtronic. The fouling is even worse in South America, I'm told, because the diesel is the older "low" not USLD stuff. Anyway, Espar's brand now M2 D4R unit that's on their web site, with integrated altitude gizmos, can't be had yet that I can find. That leaves pairing the existing inventory with two options. 1) install the HAK - high altitude kit, which is ok, but still isn't wonderful if over about 10,000 or 2) use their older method, which is to use their high altitude pump, which replaces the existing pump with one that puts out less fuel at altitude. This pump evidently is fine at sea level, but you loose some power. I'm fine with the power de-rate on a D4, cuz it's 4 Kw to start with. Evidently, the Pump option is better at altitudes above 10,000 and in general. This is as far as I've gotten. I'm leaning towards the Espar because of perceived quality and serviceability.

 

[Joe917]

Run the coolant lines, its free hot water. If you have an Espar under the hood why aren't you using it for heat? Forget air heaters and add a couple of radiators. Diesel cookers have a mixed review at best.

 

[john.travel]

Run the coolant lines, its free hot water. If you have an Espar under the hood why aren't you using it for heat? Forget air heaters and add a couple of radiators. Diesel cookers have a mixed review at best.

I have been really nervous about running coolant lines back into the habitation area, but I don't have the cargo capacity to pump glycol around the rig, leaving engine coolant the best option. When folks who have the real experience such as yourself comment, it seems using the engine coolant is a well accepted practice. Using a free byproduct from the engine to accomplish so much makes sense. I could bypass the engine, then run a coolant line from the existing D5 through the water heater then through a 1,700 wall exchanger (7 watt DC), before returning to the D5. The in-dash exchanger would be in the circuit, but I doubt it's DC power efficient enough to use a whole lot, but some. It has a nice REST feature also to harvest heat 30 minutes from shut down. Nearly eliminating the need to burn LP for the water heater is huge!!

If I did this, I could get an Espar D2 Airtronic and run that when it's colder. Combined, I'd have 3,700 watts in the D5 + D2, less derating for altitude of say 25%, so 2,775 watts usable, worst case, which is where I'd be at with a new D4. Then I'd have the dash fan exchanger if necessary.

Mercedez modified the Espar D5 by using a MB ECU controller and MB water pump. I got to figure if the water pump will handle this.

Does this sound reasonable?

 

[dreadlocks]

2) use their older method, which is to use their high altitude pump, which replaces the existing pump with one that puts out less fuel at altitude. This pump evidently is fine at sea level, but you loose some power. I'm fine with the power de-rate on a D4, cuz it's 4 Kw to start with. Evidently, the Pump option is better at altitudes above 10,000 and in general. This is as far as I've gotten. I'm leaning towards the Espar because of perceived quality and serviceability.

you can also run both fuel pumps parallel with a switch to select which one you want to use, gives you a bit of redundancy because if either pump fails you can survive off the other hopefully.

PS: I second tying it into engine coolant system.. you get the reverse benefit of now having a block heater so when you start up on a cold morning you'll get engine heat pretty much instantly instead of having to wait til you hit the road and buildup heat slowly, works great since you cant really idle diesels to pre-warm cabin, then when your on the road and at operating temp you can turn westbao blower on and use its exhanger to help heat cabin in back.. but keep an eye on temps, might need to reduce airflow on main radiator if its subzero and you got a few internal heat exchangers running at full blast.

 

[john.travel]

you can also run both fuel pumps parallel with a switch to select which one you want to use, gives you a bit of redundancy because if either pump fails you can survive off the other hopefully.

PS: I second tying it into engine coolant system.. you get the reverse benefit of now having a block heater so when you start up on a cold morning you'll get engine heat pretty much instantly instead of having to wait til you hit the road and buildup heat slowly, works great since you cant really idle diesels to pre-warm cabin, then when your on the road and at operating temp you can turn westbao blower on and use its exhanger to help heat cabin in back.. but keep an eye on temps, might need to reduce airflow on main radiator if its subzero and you got a few internal heat exchangers running at full blast.

Thanks. I checked out your InTech Discover thread; nice!

Two pumps in parallel is a good option, especially since the "baseline" pump comes with the initial kit. I saw the HA pump available in the US for $173 I think, maybe at esparparts.com. My 2006 Dodge Sprinter is an 05 T1N Sprinter 3500. Mercedez set up the Espar D5 to run only when the engine runs, which is how mine is. Mercedez substituted their own ECU unit and pump for Espars', so nobody knows how these things work, which makes repairing them a reserach project for the owners. Fixing it will give me good knowledge to take with me on the road though. There is a well defined mod that allows the D5 to be run with the engine off allowing for engine pre-heating and use for cabin heating. I basically have to wire in a "7 day timer" control bla bla

When you say "reduce airflow on the main radiator", you mean put a cover over the front grille? Makes sense if I'm pulling the heat out of the coolant with an exchanger running in the habitation area. The remaining mystery for me is whether the coolant pump Mercedez substituted for Espar's pump is strong enough to use the D5 parked, with a bypass on the engine, and circulating to the water heater and exchanger about 15 back into the habitation area. It's a nontrivial probability that the pump is shot already, which I'll discover soon when I work on it. I could upsize it, I guess. It's screwed to the firewall generally in front of the driver - easy to change out. I'm not sure, but assume for now, that when the engine is running, there is no pressure question since the engine's water pump pushes the coolant. I need to do my homework on the D5 mod and I haven't looked at the detail yet.

 

[Joe917]

Sounds like you need to re-plumb the D5 so that you can cut the engine block out of the circuit (valves)and run the heated coolant through the hot water heat ex-changer and an additional radiator in the living space when parked (engine off). I don't see any reason to cover the radiator at any time. If the engine is cold the radiator t-stat will be closed and no coolant will be flowing through it.
The 7 day timer for Webasto is super expensive and not much use for living in a vehicle. It is more for preheating vehicles in the morning on a daily basis. A thermostatic control is much better and cheaper. The Heatmiser slimline 12v is compatible with Webaso thermotop C. Esparcher, who knows?
Having more coolant in the system will not overstress the pump. In fact having too little coolant in the system will cause the Esparcher to short cycle. They will have a minimum coolant volume, you may have to install a large radiator in the living area to make up the required volume.

 

[luthj]

There was an eBay seller with aftermarket diesel dosing pumps that were about 20% lower rate than stock. 40$ if I remember.

Using your engine to heat water is very nice. Highly recommended.

 

[john.travel]

Sounds like you need to re-plumb the D5 so that you can cut the engine block out of the circuit (valves)and run the heated coolant through the hot water heat ex-changer and an additional radiator in the living space when parked (engine off). I don't see any reason to cover the radiator at any time. If the engine is cold the radiator t-stat will be closed and no coolant will be flowing through it.
The 7 day timer for Webasto is super expensive and not much use for living in a vehicle. It is more for preheating vehicles in the morning on a daily basis. A thermostatic control is much better and cheaper. The Heatmiser slimline 12v is compatible with Webaso thermotop C. Esparcher, who knows?
Having more coolant in the system will not overstress the pump. In fact having too little coolant in the system will cause the Esparcher to short cycle. They will have a minimum coolant volume, you may have to install a large radiator in the living area to make up the required volume.

Thanks so much! The 7 day timer is used, for reasons I don't yet know, by those modifying these early Winnebago/Sprinter motorhomes. The mod allows the espar to work with the engine off. The owner's I've contacted use them as a pre-heater and run the dash heat exchanger for heat while parked, but nobody yet has installed lines to the water heater and/or installed an exchanger in the habitation area, that I know of. I know it's been done; just need to keep digging. My Sprinter's espar D5 has NO controller of any kind inside; just an on off selection. If the espar codes, I can't know that much less clear the code. My only option is to take it to a MB dealer: it's asinine! MB corrected this in subsequent years, by including an espar controller of some kind on the dash.

I have to believe that I can use a better controller with a T stat mounted further back into the habitation area, as you suggest. But MB replaced the espar ECU with their own MB ECU unit, so it's a PITA to understand what will and won't work with this D5. I got to keep digging.

 

[luthj]

The sprinters D5 can be run using a basic switch. You will need a relay to trigger the circulation pump. Adding a take-off line for a water heater is not hard, (I have done it).

Bypassing the engine is the challenge, and requires significant plumbing changes. Personally I think just hooking up the water heater is a good compromise.

I would still suggest the D4 based on the size of your rig.

A thermostat for the factory D5 does't make much sense, as the D5 will basically run on high all the time due to the engine loosing so much heat to the air. In addition with the engine off the recirculate damper is open, so you are pulling cold air from the outside and heating it. Okay for a backup, but not so much as a primary heat source.

 

[john.travel]

The sprinters D5 can be run using a basic switch. You will need a relay to trigger the circulation pump. Adding a take-off line for a water heater is not hard, (I have done it).

Bypassing the engine is the challenge, and requires significant plumbing changes. Personally I think just hooking up the water heater is a good compromise.

I would still suggest the D4 based on the size of your rig.

A thermostat for the factory D5 does't make much sense, as the D5 will basically run on high all the time due to the engine loosing so much heat to the air. In addition with the engine off the recirculate damper is open, so you are pulling cold air from the outside and heating it. Okay for a backup, but not so much as a primary heat source.

Greetings MWD! I hope your family had a great Holiday. You found me again fumbling and bumbling along ha ha. I've been thinking and reviewing my notes from your posts and great advice, so I see where your coming from. You mentioned to me before that the D5 might be a decent backup system (using dash exchanger) but draws too many amps (e.g., dash exchanger, coolant pump, fuel pump, espar + a radiator in the back if I did that) to be a primary system. Plus the damper issue. I agree with this.

I'll go with the D4 as primary and only hook up the water heater and not bypass the engine. The engine bypass doesn't make sense anyway if it's run only while driving. I emailed a couple venders, who advertise D4s with 75mm hoods. After our last exchange, I gathered that the 90mm hood makes the most sense based on air flow.

I have a question. I'll PM you.

 

[luthj]

With regards to the generator, I think jetting it for the intermediate altitude would be a good idea. Running a bit rich at altitude won't cause damage, but make sure to change the oil on schedule.

 

[dreadlocks]

I disagree, you'd only want to change jets if your only operating at that altitude, if you go back to sea-level your lean and that can burn up the motor.. not really what you'd want in any kinda expedition/touring setup.. or you gotta re-jet it and re-tune the carb and thats a hassle and messy and prone to user error.. on the inverse you just run rich and without any emissions hardware the only thing that you could foul out with excess fuel is the spark plug.

If you were running it at a static location, ie a cabin up in the mountains, or a jobsite genny for a high altitude region, yeah jet it if you want best fuel economy and smoothest operation.. but you should label the generator for its minimum altitude just incase.

ps: I'm almost certain I've seen Honda 2000i's @ Everest basecamp (17k ft) on TV, and if you google a bit you can find photos of em up there pretty easy.