Best suburban base to start with?

[CrazyDrei]

Bonus Question: For non-towing applications is the 2500 with the 6.0 better then the 1500?

non towing off road application: not really.

yes, better brakes, transmission, more power!

$200 cam and $100 tune gets your 5.3 more power and torque than a stock 6.0 and that's less than the premium you will pay for that 6.0

transmission depends on how hard you drive and same $100 tune above changes shift points and pressures to make it more reliable

Brakes, absolutely not! 1500 run vacuum brakes that are soft spongy but always work. Take your hydroboost which runs off your power steering pump, with a trailer, that upshifts on hard braking raising the speed of power steering pump and providing tremendous stopping power, way more than vacuum booster can ever imagine to deliver and insert it in an off road application. 4x4 low, 700rpm descent, engine controlling the speed and dipping down to as low as 400rpm, sometimes even lower enough to stall the truck out, and now tap on those all mighty and powerful hydroboost brakes, stress the power steering pump, stall the truck out, loose your brakes and steering and all that is when you need the brakes and steering most. Sounds like a fun scenario to be in, and this is why I will never run GM hydroboost on my 1500 off-road specific truck.

 

[moxford]

IMO, 6.0 is kind of useless unless you're towing, same with the heavier transmission. The real "win" of the 2500 is the upgraded driveline/axles/IFS components. If you're going to be banging hard on it, snapping axles and breaking tie-rods ... might be a consideration. If not crawling and just doing light/moderate fire-roads the added beef may not be needed. If you're going heavy off-road, go with the 2500 because ARB doesn't make a locker for the 1500's front-diff, only the 2500s.

Now, since you said you want 4.10s, I presume you're going for "big meat", so that right there likely points to a 2500 for the durability and the brakes.
If you're truly just going 32s-34s, 4.10 may be too much, especially if you're looking at vehicles with the 6spd transmission. Something to keep in mind, anyways, as you shop.

2500 MPG isn't as good as 1500, due to all the added weight of the engine, transmission, frame, and driveline components.

My 2012 1500 5.3+6L80e 4x4+towing (LTZ) got 18 MPG with giant Thule up top for my last out of state hunting trip (18 hrs each way), 12.1 last week for Arizona National Livestock show pulling a 2-horse trailer there and back (Bay Area, CA to Phoenix, AZ over the Grapevine.) Stock 32's on 20" rims (275/55R20) with 3.42 in the back. I used to get 14MPG, bone-stock, in my Avalanche Z71 due to full-time V8 and 4L60e gearing. New tech and 6-speed transmissions are nice sometimes. =)

1500 usually rides nicer.

Comes down to: be honest with yourself about what you're really doing with it, and if you really need to give up the MPG and ride-comfort for durability.

Cheers,
-mox

 

[rayra]

All the GMs have a trans line loop thru the radiator tank, but that’s originally as a warmer not a cooler. But it does both as long as the heat or towing load isn’t heavy.
The Tow/Haul package adds a relatively small external trans cooler and in a poor location, loop goes from radiator to external cooler back to trans. And it is not enough for high heat or load applications in the 1500 / 4L60.
i and others here have gone with a much larger aftermarket cooler to greatly reduce trans temps.
Details in the links in my sig. it’s an easy upgrade, ~$200.

 

[nitro_rat]

non towing off road application: not really.



$200 cam and $100 tune gets your 5.3 more power and torque than a stock 6.0 and that's less than the premium you will pay for that 6.0

transmission depends on how hard you drive and same $100 tune above changes shift points and pressures to make it more reliable

Brakes, absolutely not! 1500 run vacuum brakes that are soft spongy but always work. Take your hydroboost which runs off your power steering pump, with a trailer, that upshifts on hard braking raising the speed of power steering pump and providing tremendous stopping power, way more than vacuum booster can ever imagine to deliver and insert it in an off road application. 4x4 low, 700rpm descent, engine controlling the speed and dipping down to as low as 400rpm, sometimes even lower enough to stall the truck out, and now tap on those all mighty and powerful hydroboost brakes, stress the power steering pump, stall the truck out, loose your brakes and steering and all that is when you need the brakes and steering most. Sounds like a fun scenario to be in, and this is why I will never run GM hydroboost on my 1500 off-road specific truck.

I've personally put over a half million miles (probably more) on GM trucks with hydroboost and I've never had any problems with them other than regular wear and tear. Trying to make a turn while on the brakes and having weak assist is the first sign of trouble and if you fix it then you'll never have a serious problem!

'04 and up 1500 Subs and Tahoes have hydroboost from the factory.

Granted if you're trying to turn 37's lock to lock at low speeds in rough terrain that could lead to problems. Maybe you need a larger reservoir, larger cooler, and a ram assist...

 

[CrazyDrei]

Granted if you're trying to turn 37's lock to lock at low speeds in rough terrain that could lead to problems. Maybe you need a larger reservoir, larger cooler, and a ram assist...

nitro_rat,

Yes on the highway hydroboost is amazing but off road with 100# or bigger tires at low RPMs you do need a larger reservoir, a bigger cooler and a ram assist, and at that point it becomes too expensive to add all that unless you are racing competitively.

 

[vintageracer]

stall the truck out, and now tap on those all mighty and powerful hydroboost brakes, stress the power steering pump, stall the truck out, loose your brakes and steering and all that is when you need the brakes and steering most. Sounds like a fun scenario to be in, and this is why I will never run GM hydroboost on my 1500 off-road specific truck.

NOT TRUE!

The hydro-boost system has an accumulator that stores pressure to operate several pumps of the brake pedal with assist after the engine or PS system has lost pressure. Stall the truck or other situations you outline above with vacuum assist power brakes and your vacuum brake assist is DEAD immediately along with the power steering.

I'll take Hydro-Boost every day of the week over the schidty vacuum assist power brakes on 1/2 ton GM trucks that are well known for being spongy and not stopping worth a damn!

 

[CampStewart]

nitro_rat,

Yes on the highway hydroboost is amazing but off road with 100# or bigger tires at low RPMs you do need a larger reservoir, a bigger cooler and a ram assist, and at that point it becomes too expensive to add all that unless you are racing competitively.

Ram assist on a IFS Suburban, now that would be something. Larger reservoir and cooler could be done for a couple of hundred dollars you need to be a little more resourceful. Guys have been retrofitting hydroboost to vehicles that came with vacuum boosters for decades for better brakes with large tires and low vacuum situations. Ram assist is a totally different discussion and I don't see why it has anything to do with this one. Some of the things you say are just silly, from removing skidplates to save weight, to doing trails that jeeps fear to tread with a suburban, and on and on. I halfway think you are just trolling for attention and to create controversy.

 

[CrazyDrei]

Ram assist on a IFS Suburban, now that would be something. Larger reservoir and cooler could be done for a couple of hundred dollars you need to be a little more resourceful. Guys have been retrofitting hydroboost to vehicles that came with vacuum boosters for decades for better brakes with large tires and low vacuum situations. Ram assist is a totally different discussion and I don't see why it has anything to do with this one. Some of the things you say are just silly, from removing skidplates to save weight, to doing trails that jeeps fear to tread with a suburban, and on and on. I halfway think you are just trolling for attention and to create controversy.

CampStewart,

You are funny. I have spent the last three years and over 50,000 hard off road miles blasting with my kids around the Southwest deserts. Everything I have done to my truck is to maximize speed, safety and comfort. I have run trails with built and highly modified Rubicons that can out crawl me any day, but take several days to get to that 150 ft long stretch of rocks. I have run with purpose built overland Tacomas and 4Runners who had to call it quits and take a break because their vehicles are nothing more than stock trucks weighted down to the max with catalog bought bolt ons. Living in Vegas I used to pre-run the Mint 400 with my kids and outrun many team trucks with 2 toddlers comfortably sleeping in the back seat. Driven to Alaska and back 2 times, and my whole family can get in it and drive anywhere and be comfortable for 2-3 weeks just the way the Suburban sits in my driveway. Monthly ran 2-4 days trips around Death valley in one day. Have done entire 138 mile Mojave trail out and back in one day.

My truck is built to comfortably seat 6 people, run 500+ miles on a tank on the road or 400+ miles off road, have same breakover angle as a factory 2017 2 door Rubicon, steeper approach angle and 6 degrees less of a departure angle as a 2017 2 door Rubicon. I have done trips, took pictures and made videos of my adventures. I have done what most people here just dream, build for and troll about.

So yes, go ahead add 500lbs of skid plates to take away your ground clearance, decrease payload and increase vehicle weight, since we all know that a 3/4 ton Suburban is way more capable that a Jeep that's 1/2 it's weight. I run trails that most of my Jeep owning friends fear because when I break, roll or destroy my $4,000 truck I buy another one next day, and they still have 4-6 years of payments left, $50,000 mistake is much harder to swallow if you are really out there on the trails than if you are sitting behind the computer dreaming and trolling.

My hydroboost experience off road is why I stand where I stand. With vacuum brakes when you loose power you still have 2-3 pumps of brakes working, with hydroboost you are SOL. I have lost power off road with both hydroboost and vacuum, and I'll take vacuum over total catostrophic failure everyday.

We all have our opinions and mine are all backed by real world experiences and documented yours are just armchair philosopher trolls. You sound like a Jeep or a Toyota guy that's been brainwashed by aftermarket manufacturers schemes to buy more parts that serve no purpose but sound really good.

PS: everyone that I personally know that bought a 2500 Suburban/Yukon XL to run the same trails as I do only came out once and sold the truck shortly there after.

 

[CrazyDrei]

NOT TRUE!

The hydro-boost system has an accumulator that stores pressure to operate several pumps of the brake pedal with assist after the engine or PS system has lost pressure. Stall the truck or other situations you outline above with vacuum assist power brakes and your vacuum brake assist is DEAD immediately along with the power steering.

I'll take Hydro-Boost every day of the week over the schidty vacuum assist power brakes on 1/2 ton GM trucks that are well known for being spongy and not stopping worth a damn!

vintageracer,

What you are describing is the complete opposite of my experience. Every vacuum brake I've stalled out gave me 2-3 pumps of stopping power after turning the motor off and hydroboost completely and instantly shuts off.

This is both in 00-06 2500 Silverados as well as my 2011 2500 Suburban.

And yes 1500 brakes are spongy but that improves with GMT900 rotors and calipers and changing fluid every 6 months.

Can you shoot a video of your Yukon XL brakes working after killing power, interested to see how that actually works.

 

[lilkia]

Unless you have spindly little bird legs the brakes work just fine with the engine off. All the hydroboost does is make it easier to push the pedal.
Thats as nonsensical as your "a cam and a tune and the 5.3 makes just as much power as the 8.1" delusional as always.

 

[luthj]

The vacuum booster stores enough vacuum for a couple brake applications, just like the hydroboost accumulator. With good quality pads and rotors (right friction rating) the vacuum brakes work just fine (If you are running mega big tires thats a different matter).

2500 GMT800s suburbans are pretty rare, and command much higher prices. They ride harsher without lots of extra weight, especially with the leaf springs in the rear. I would guess less than half of 2500s had the 4.10 gears. With the 6.0l and factory tire sizes there was little reason for 4.10 gears anyways.

Finding low mile GMT800s is a real challenge at this point. The higher mileage ones are usually pretty worn out interior and mechanically. Vehicles in that class of SUV are not unique or rare, so instead of maintaining them, folks drive them till they get nasty, then junk them.

As far as capability "off road". There really isn't any improvements for the 2500s over the 1500s except payload capacity. Articulation is better on the 1500s, especially with modest loads. The coil suspension in the rear rides better and is easier to modify by swapping springs. The suspension and axles are tougher, but there isn't much that breaks! Tie rods and steering parts maybe, but both 2500 and 1500 share that issue.

2500s have a heavier rear axle (semi or full float depending on year/options). More unsprung weight to kill your ride, and not necessary unless you are hauling mega weight, or have really big tires. The 2500 front unit bearings are much heavier, and will tolerate large tires better. 1500s with large offset or tall tires will wear out unit bearings/hubs pretty quickly.

2500s got the 9.25" front diff assembly. This will accept a locker or limit slip diff of various kinds. Its beefy. Given how few damaged 8.25" front diffs I have seen, I don't see any problem with the 8.25. If you are rock crawling a lot? Might be worth it then.

As mentioned the 2500s got the heavier trans. Given the cost of a rebuild its not a deal breaker though.

 

[CampStewart]

CampStewart,

You are funny. I have spent the last three years and over 50,000 hard off road miles blasting with my kids around the Southwest deserts. Everything I have done to my truck is to maximize speed, safety and comfort. I have run trails with built and highly modified Rubicons that can out crawl me any day, but take several days to get to that 150 ft long stretch of rocks. I have run with purpose built overland Tacomas and 4Runners who had to call it quits and take a break because their vehicles are nothing more than stock trucks weighted down to the max with catalog bought bolt ons. Living in Vegas I used to pre-run the Mint 400 with my kids and outrun many team trucks with 2 toddlers comfortably sleeping in the back seat. Driven to Alaska and back 2 times, and my whole family can get in it and drive anywhere and be comfortable for 2-3 weeks just the way the Suburban sits in my driveway. Monthly ran 2-4 days trips around Death valley in one day. Have done entire 138 mile Mojave trail out and back in one day.

My truck is built to comfortably seat 6 people, run 500+ miles on a tank on the road or 400+ miles off road, have same breakover angle as a factory 2017 2 door Rubicon, steeper approach angle and 6 degrees less of a departure angle as a 2017 2 door Rubicon. I have done trips, took pictures and made videos of my adventures. I have done what most people here just dream, build for and troll about.

So yes, go ahead add 500lbs of skid plates to take away your ground clearance, decrease payload and increase vehicle weight, since we all know that a 3/4 ton Suburban is way more capable that a Jeep that's 1/2 it's weight. I run trails that most of my Jeep owning friends fear because when I break, roll or destroy my $4,000 truck I buy another one next day, and they still have 4-6 years of payments left, $50,000 mistake is much harder to swallow if you are really out there on the trails than if you are sitting behind the computer dreaming and trolling.

My hydroboost experience off road is why I stand where I stand. With vacuum brakes when you loose power you still have 2-3 pumps of brakes working, with hydroboost you are SOL. I have lost power off road with both hydroboost and vacuum, and I'll take vacuum over total catostrophic failure everyday.

We all have our opinions and mine are all backed by real world experiences and documented yours are just armchair philosopher trolls. You sound like a Jeep or a Toyota guy that's been brainwashed by aftermarket manufacturers schemes to buy more parts that serve no purpose but sound really good.

PS: everyone that I personally know that bought a 2500 Suburban/Yukon XL to run the same trails as I do only came out once and sold the truck shortly there after.

I apologize I never imagined it was possible that anyone could be as amazing as you are.

 

[jonathon]

Heavy Suburban, high miles, 33’s, G80, and a 10 bolt rear = blown 10 bolt rear. The 10b will hold up to 33’s in an open configuration but barely.

The 800s have coil springs right? So not really easy to swap a 14b semi floater in? The 9.5 14bsf will take a locker and 35’s with ease.

 

[nitro_rat]

Newer coil spring Denalis have a 6 lug 9.5 SF that will swap in. Maybe only GMT 900's but I'm pretty sure they swap directly. My '11 Denali has one. They're all 3.42 I think, they have the 6.2 motor.

 

[vintageracer]

vintageracer,

What you are describing is the complete opposite of my experience. Every vacuum brake I've stalled out gave me 2-3 pumps of stopping power after turning the motor off and hydroboost completely and instantly shuts off.

Look up and learn about an "Accumulator" and its function in a hydro-boost system.