nick disjunkt
Adventurer
how do you plan to access the heater and electric components when they need maintenance or repair? Are you going to build removable hatches?
BIG TRUCK - little budget
- Thread starter apexcamper
- Start date
apexcamper
Carefully scripted chaos
Ya...tricky bit...there is room enough for me to access most of the heaters components from the wall space and under the bed. If I ever have to remove it, that will be a difficult process.
If you look at my previous post about the heater, taking off the cover from the inside is pretty easy behind that wall...which allows me to remove the two exterior panels. From there I have pretty good access to everything.
It would be awkward and kind of a pain in the butt, but very doable should the need arise.
As for the electrics, they are very easily accessed from a hinged panel allowing access through the wall, or from under the bed. It will be way more clear once I have it all together. I also have a wife that stretches to reach 5'2"...she can get into pretty small spaces, and has helped hand in hand with the design and build.
Itinerrant
Observer
LukeH
Adventurer
Aahh how satisfying it must be to get on with the camper! Many congrats! I am of course completely jealous.
Right you invited us in so here goes:
From personal experience: I owned a professionally built 4x4 motorhome for 10 years that used wood screws in its cabinetry (it was his first and last 4x4, all the others were roadgoing) . I kept a screwdriver in the cutlery drawer permanently because at the end of each day’s driving you had to go around the furniture tightening everything up again.
It was a pain.
I strongly (very) recommend that you dismantle each wood screwed joint and stuff some Sika 252 or equivalent between the contacting surfaces (wood – wood AND wood – metal) and down the screw holes. You can sometimes find it in Ebay for much much less than in the shops.
Your L brackets will eventually fatigue and crack at the bend, they’re made of the cheapest steel and aren’t designed to cope with the movement that the extreme hygrometry and vibrations of a camper will bring. No matter, because you have joined wood-wood with the Sika so you won’t even notice when they break.
Also stick your panels onto the structure with same, otherwise they will squeak and gradually self destruct. You only really need to use the screws to position them. A screw is a point load which will eventually damage something.
Get the best protected screws you can; the humidity inside the box can get really high and rust the screws. A dash of zinc primer onto each bracket after you’ve glued and screwed it in place would go a long way to avoiding that.
Now it’s a shame to lose that foot of space forward of the bed, looking at the pictures couldn’t you have lowered the breaker box below bed level and put the bed against the wall?
Never mind, it’s done and as the bed isn’t along an exterior (= cold) wall the comfort level will be improved. That foot of lost space over half the height of the box will give you tons and tons of clothes cupboard space. Bond in shelves before skinning it and then lots of doors in the panel.
Mattresses on closed surfaces go mouldy underneath; no matter how hot or cool the person sleeping is, they sweat and it all seems to collect between the foam and the wood. You could cut lots and lots of holes to open it to the air in the storage below, or buy a set of those curved slats from Ikea, making it feel just like the bed at home. You would still have to cut some ventilation holes, but not as many because the foam isn’t in direct contact.
Are you going to put your fresh water un the raised floor under the dinette? That would situate it perfectly above the rear axle, the ideal place for what is the heaviest single item (when full). It doesn’t cost that much to get a tank made to measure, you’d be surprised. A friend of mine took a load of stainless sheeting to a nearby technical school and they were really pleased to have a real world project to work on. The welds are a bit ugly but who cares, it was pressure tested and leak free. With the heater conduits nearby you also have very efficient freeze protection.
Hope I haven’t offended, I’ve tried to be positive and like to fool myself that I’m helping.
I’m sure I’ll think of more, and I’m really looking forward to your next update.
Cheers
L
Right you invited us in so here goes:
From personal experience: I owned a professionally built 4x4 motorhome for 10 years that used wood screws in its cabinetry (it was his first and last 4x4, all the others were roadgoing) . I kept a screwdriver in the cutlery drawer permanently because at the end of each day’s driving you had to go around the furniture tightening everything up again.
It was a pain.
I strongly (very) recommend that you dismantle each wood screwed joint and stuff some Sika 252 or equivalent between the contacting surfaces (wood – wood AND wood – metal) and down the screw holes. You can sometimes find it in Ebay for much much less than in the shops.
Your L brackets will eventually fatigue and crack at the bend, they’re made of the cheapest steel and aren’t designed to cope with the movement that the extreme hygrometry and vibrations of a camper will bring. No matter, because you have joined wood-wood with the Sika so you won’t even notice when they break.
Also stick your panels onto the structure with same, otherwise they will squeak and gradually self destruct. You only really need to use the screws to position them. A screw is a point load which will eventually damage something.
Get the best protected screws you can; the humidity inside the box can get really high and rust the screws. A dash of zinc primer onto each bracket after you’ve glued and screwed it in place would go a long way to avoiding that.
Now it’s a shame to lose that foot of space forward of the bed, looking at the pictures couldn’t you have lowered the breaker box below bed level and put the bed against the wall?
Never mind, it’s done and as the bed isn’t along an exterior (= cold) wall the comfort level will be improved. That foot of lost space over half the height of the box will give you tons and tons of clothes cupboard space. Bond in shelves before skinning it and then lots of doors in the panel.
Mattresses on closed surfaces go mouldy underneath; no matter how hot or cool the person sleeping is, they sweat and it all seems to collect between the foam and the wood. You could cut lots and lots of holes to open it to the air in the storage below, or buy a set of those curved slats from Ikea, making it feel just like the bed at home. You would still have to cut some ventilation holes, but not as many because the foam isn’t in direct contact.
Are you going to put your fresh water un the raised floor under the dinette? That would situate it perfectly above the rear axle, the ideal place for what is the heaviest single item (when full). It doesn’t cost that much to get a tank made to measure, you’d be surprised. A friend of mine took a load of stainless sheeting to a nearby technical school and they were really pleased to have a real world project to work on. The welds are a bit ugly but who cares, it was pressure tested and leak free. With the heater conduits nearby you also have very efficient freeze protection.
Hope I haven’t offended, I’ve tried to be positive and like to fool myself that I’m helping.
I’m sure I’ll think of more, and I’m really looking forward to your next update.
Cheers
L
apexcamper
Carefully scripted chaos
Absolutely, bring it. Only two reasons to post here, give help and ideas to other, or get help and knowledge. Clearly I am here for the latter.
OK...that is irritating. I was so close to gluing every joint and merely using screws while it set, but last minute changed my mind so I could make the occasional "design change" (read mistake) and easily take it apart without wasting the wood. I am not going to go with the "pricey at half price" Sika simply because this shelter is the "practice" box. I WILL be undoing joints tonight and adding wood glue simply because I don't want things falling apart, but I (maybe wrongly) feel that the wood glue will hold a wood to wood bond as strong as the siki, and like you said, if my metal brackets fail, it wont be a real big deal, since it will, at that point, be basically one piece of wood
VERY excellent point. I had assumed that my very solid box would shield my construction, but after you said that bit about point load, I completely agree. A simple washboard dirt road could shread a sheet of plywood hung on skinny steel screws
I used outdoor deck screws, the yellowish ones (I think zinc plated)
I looked at that, would have been WAY too easy, but I would have had to disassemble the bed in the event I needed to service the heater (removing heater covers would have been almost impossible) and return air to the heater would have required it's own ducts. as it stands now, I have just enough space for my little wife to crawl back there and take everything apart and the return air will come over the top of the wall in a 3cm gap between the paneling and the ceiling. Since the hot air will blow out under the dinette and return across the ceiling, it makes for a great circulation system
OMG, I love you man! that NEVER crossed my mind. Down the middle I need the space for heater and Jerry can access, but on the sides, TOTALLY going to use that space.
Good to know. Would it be better to place a thin plastic sheet on the wood under the mattress?...like gluing a painters drop cloth to it. Or is the issue more that the foam itself holds the moisture, and needs to be aired out?
In the last picture you can see my battery box and 220v to 24v converter. The fresh water tank will be opposite that in the same place, with a smaller gray water tank next to it, just forward of the rear axles. I saw Shachagra made his own water tanks out of wood and epoxy. I really love that and on the big box I will be trying that out, but for this one, a simple 150l water tank opposite the batteries with a 75l gray water strapped next to it. We don't have a shower, and the toilet has it's own water supply, so really drinking and cooking are the demands. At 20l a day, this gets us 7 to 8 days out. This is our practice box, so we are not expecting to be that far from civilization, but there is room for a second tank should we want it. we also have a 10l just for drinking water in the cab.
I would only be offended if you drove by my house and didn't stop in for a beer. I am not a craftsman or engineer...I have an indoor desk job, so I am REALLY in uncharted territory. I need all the help I can get.
Thanks for all the input, keep it coming
Cade
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LukeH
Adventurer
quick reply from my phone.
Wood glue is not good because it dries hard and will crack. Any DIY Shop will sell a polyurethane adhesive in a nozzle tube. I strongly reccommend you use a product that dries flexible. Most wood glue is also water soluble so in winter qhen you're trying to keep warm the humidity will undo the glue.
The middle section where you can't put shelves can be hanging space. Wery well aired because of the intake at ceiling level.
Wood glue is not good because it dries hard and will crack. Any DIY Shop will sell a polyurethane adhesive in a nozzle tube. I strongly reccommend you use a product that dries flexible. Most wood glue is also water soluble so in winter qhen you're trying to keep warm the humidity will undo the glue.
The middle section where you can't put shelves can be hanging space. Wery well aired because of the intake at ceiling level.
Dirtytires
Explorer
That is one AWESOME truck you have there. Are you scrapping the parts you are removing? Gun Mounts, Fire Ext, boxes. ect.
sarconcepts
Adventurer
I agree with LukeH about using glue completely
A glue I used throughout the Bullet XV & was really happy with, is 'PL' polyurethane contractors adhesive
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/paint/...polyurethane-construction-adhesive-54375.html
I tested various glues while making the ceiling recess, gluing a 1/4" x3/4" to the curving edge of 1/4" plywood, thus giving me only a continuous 1/4" glued butt connection, after drying, I couldn't rip them apart, no matter what. The other two glues I tried didn't fare so well. 'PL' stays somewhat flexible, & I glued & screwed everything together (the screws holding pieces exactly in place until the glue dried)
it's cheap, readily available, & easy to work with
I glued EVERYTHING that didn't ever have to come apart
clean it up right away though, I haven't found anything to remove it once it dries.
In areas where you have room, I put a fillet into the corners for even more strength
this of course also prevents rattles, which can be annoying on long dirt roads
Steve
P.S. wood glue it WAY too brittle for this
A glue I used throughout the Bullet XV & was really happy with, is 'PL' polyurethane contractors adhesive
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/paint/...polyurethane-construction-adhesive-54375.html
I tested various glues while making the ceiling recess, gluing a 1/4" x3/4" to the curving edge of 1/4" plywood, thus giving me only a continuous 1/4" glued butt connection, after drying, I couldn't rip them apart, no matter what. The other two glues I tried didn't fare so well. 'PL' stays somewhat flexible, & I glued & screwed everything together (the screws holding pieces exactly in place until the glue dried)
it's cheap, readily available, & easy to work with
I glued EVERYTHING that didn't ever have to come apart
clean it up right away though, I haven't found anything to remove it once it dries.
In areas where you have room, I put a fillet into the corners for even more strength
this of course also prevents rattles, which can be annoying on long dirt roads
Steve
P.S. wood glue it WAY too brittle for this
apexcamper
Carefully scripted chaos
I like the flexible. Not speaking German while in Germany makes shopping more difficult, but polyurethane should be a pretty universal word...I'm headed to the hardware store after work and I'll let you know what I get.
You guys are in my head, and it's crazy. I was just reading Shachagra's forum about fillets, seemed easy enough, so yes, I think I will give that a try...at this stage I can easily screw it up and replace something.
I did remove a lot of the undercarriage boxes, guns racks and the such, yards of 24v and 220v wiring, lights, power strips, a 220v breaker box, even a MONSTER transformer. I also have the full troop carrier canvas tarp and poles to cover the back just sitting at the end of my driveway. Aside from the color, the inside of both the cab and box are pretty de-mil'd now. I kept the 24v breaker box because it had built in batter charger, battery monitor and 24v-12v converter, and kept the 40,000btu mil-spec webasto heater. The two Army cabinets that came in the box will be mounted to the floor, hidden behind thin wood paneling. They have locking, rubber lined drawers great for cutlery and supplies. Other than that she is green, but not much else in the way of Army.
Unless I find takers, it will probably end up going to recycle.
---Slightly Off Topic---
I really appreciate everyone making sure I am not screwing things up. Clearly I am still going to make a few mistakes, and having a practice box to make them in is very handy. DO NOT STOP with the corrections!
I will try to stay detailed as to what materials and techniques I am using, you guys keep throwing out better suggestions. My wife is very happy that we are not doing this blindly now, and when she is happy everything just goes smoother.
Thanx
Cade
EDIT: Are you talking about something like gorilla glue?
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Hiya
Our camper is screwed plywood, with piano hinges giving a spread of load for doors at least. Screws do indeed need attention, but maybe with ply each joint is under less torsion so isn't that big a deal. I could well imagine using timber as you have might allow a lot of movement at joints, perhaps making it quite squeaky at least!?
I would bite the bullet and go with Sika. That is what its for, and I don't remember people saying it doesn't do what they expected. As with a lot of Sika products it does have an expiry date, so don't buy stuff cheaply with minimal or no life left. I think it comes with at least 12 months when new?
Reading the whole thread I would stick with the box you have now if I were you. Assuming you have mounted it correctly it is designed for the job in a hard use scenario. Many people build, or have built for them, super expensive boxes that they know full well they can't stand up in because vehicle travelling height will at some point be a problem. There isn't that far to walk about inside after all!
Regarding mattresses, ours was on Ikea slats on an uninsulated ply floor in the overcab bed, so cold air underneath and warm moist air on top, lots of condensation and mould if you don't keep on top of it. Then I put down two sealed layers (overlapped joins) of inch thick insulation, less of a problem but still some. Then I bought "Froli" bed springs (made in Germany I think?), even more ventilation and a lot more comfort but still some moisture and mould. So although yours is inside and not an overcab, next time I would consider at least some blown ventilation if not gentle heating perhaps?
Good luck
Jason
Our camper is screwed plywood, with piano hinges giving a spread of load for doors at least. Screws do indeed need attention, but maybe with ply each joint is under less torsion so isn't that big a deal. I could well imagine using timber as you have might allow a lot of movement at joints, perhaps making it quite squeaky at least!?
I would bite the bullet and go with Sika. That is what its for, and I don't remember people saying it doesn't do what they expected. As with a lot of Sika products it does have an expiry date, so don't buy stuff cheaply with minimal or no life left. I think it comes with at least 12 months when new?
Reading the whole thread I would stick with the box you have now if I were you. Assuming you have mounted it correctly it is designed for the job in a hard use scenario. Many people build, or have built for them, super expensive boxes that they know full well they can't stand up in because vehicle travelling height will at some point be a problem. There isn't that far to walk about inside after all!
Regarding mattresses, ours was on Ikea slats on an uninsulated ply floor in the overcab bed, so cold air underneath and warm moist air on top, lots of condensation and mould if you don't keep on top of it. Then I put down two sealed layers (overlapped joins) of inch thick insulation, less of a problem but still some. Then I bought "Froli" bed springs (made in Germany I think?), even more ventilation and a lot more comfort but still some moisture and mould. So although yours is inside and not an overcab, next time I would consider at least some blown ventilation if not gentle heating perhaps?
Good luck
Jason
LowTech
Dirt Track Traveler
Framing
And I use a different way of putting it together. I'm a nut & bolt kind of builder.
I tend to make / have made metal frames ( often angle ) that I can then sandwich wood in between the angle and a piece of flat strap w/ nuts & bolts, making a wall or surface. The nuts/bolts take no tools that I don't already have in the rig, stay as tight (or tighter) as any on the rig.
I can remove/repair/change panels as needed. Sometimes the panels are boards w/ glue joints, sometimes ply based on what we're doing.
I've found that I get almost no warping of wood when it's "clamped" this way.
It does take loads of dif size / grades of bolts, washers, nuts, cap nuts, stainless cap nuts, brass cap nuts, etc . Loads of drilling, and pre-drilling. Painting . . . on and on.
:sombrero:
And I use a different way of putting it together. I'm a nut & bolt kind of builder.
I tend to make / have made metal frames ( often angle ) that I can then sandwich wood in between the angle and a piece of flat strap w/ nuts & bolts, making a wall or surface. The nuts/bolts take no tools that I don't already have in the rig, stay as tight (or tighter) as any on the rig.
I can remove/repair/change panels as needed. Sometimes the panels are boards w/ glue joints, sometimes ply based on what we're doing.
I've found that I get almost no warping of wood when it's "clamped" this way.
It does take loads of dif size / grades of bolts, washers, nuts, cap nuts, stainless cap nuts, brass cap nuts, etc . Loads of drilling, and pre-drilling. Painting . . . on and on.
:sombrero: