Bigger tires or more suspension travel?

ROVER-1

Observer
Well said Mike.

I just spent the last year with a stock RRC on the trails that you are very familiar with. With 225 BFG Commercial TA tires, the gear I carried along with sensible driving and the occasional use of tire chains became very important. I ran into difficulty only in very deep mud where even 35+ tires were bogged down. The majority of hang ups on the trails came from rocks or bottoming out in bigger tire ruts.

I have now upgraded to a 2 1/2 OME lift and a set of 235 mud terrain tires and am enjoying a much better trail experience. The addition of a larger, more aggressive tire that is still in the range of a vehicles capabilities is well worth the money spent.
 

bjm206

Adventurer
For a D2 with good articulation in stock form a modestly larger more aggressive tire will give you the biggest trail capability increase for the money. No free lunch though, braking and acceleration will suffer a bit and your driveline will be more stressed by the weight increase(rotational/unsprung) and effective gearing change.

Tires with taller sidewalls will usually gain some effective suspension articulation from increased sidewall flex.
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Rover 1- I remember we used to run just about any trail in the state with stock rigs, dragging ourselves out with winches when we got in too deep, but otherwise driving the majority of the time. A lot of those trails have changed to the point that I get lost. A little abuse, a little erosion, and the occasional earthquake-induced alteration can radically alter even the mildest of trails.

Once the 109 is done, I'll likely do nothing harder than Permanente or Purches, and just spend more time exploring the longer, milder trails up here. I think my days of hood-deep water and mud are mostly behind me.
 

fishEH

Explorer
Do you need to upgrade your suspension anyways? If so then I see no reason not to go some 3" springs and 12" shocks. Throw some 33's on there and enjoy perhaps the perfect balance.
 

Snagger

Explorer
I'm not hugely experienced - I have done one big trip around the Alps in a group and a few laning trips and off-rading and winching training courses, but I have a very clear opinion on this. Tyres.

The tread pattern and size of your tires will have more influence than any other aspect of the vehicle, and probably more effect than ALL other aspects of the vehicle combined. High engine performance, tall suspension, fancy dampers, bullet proof transmissions and lockers will be of no use at all if you have no grip. As commented by others, they lift the axles too, not just the chassis and body. They are also the easiest and cheapest upgrade.

Lockers will only help if the tyres have enough grip on one or more corners to pull against the resistance of the vehicle, and if you're dragging a heavy vehicle through deep mud or over large boulders or stumps, you're going nowhere. Lockers are expensive, a significant job to fit and can have nasty knock-on effects on the handling and on the longevity of other transmission parts. They also tend to be more of a problem for the expedition drive than an asset - they won't get you through a badly selected route; they'll just get you stuck in a harder position to recover the vehicle from.

Suspension is an easy one - expedition vehicles need heavy duty suspension for the increased weight, but extra height is your enemy. Competition vehicles need softer suspension and longer articulation is advantageous, but again, not as much as grip from good tyres - you can clear a section with three good patches of grip, but you won't clear one with four patches of no grip. Suspension lifts are an accessory for the poser, not for the offroader.

When choosing tyre patterns, know the terrain you will be driving. ATs are great for most surfaces for expeditions, and BFG ATs were the choice for all byt two of the Alpine group I was in and did the best on the roads, dirt tracks and loose shale. They're not too bad in most sand or in moderate snow, either. They do struggle in thick mud or on wet grass, for which MTs are better, but MTs are not pleasant on wet roads and struggle more on shale and wood (bridges, play site see-saws, etc) and dig you in in sand. Extreme tyres will be brilliant in deep mud and on rocks, but truly horrible on roads (wet or dry), shale or sand. For sand driving, you want something very mild to avoid digging in.

You also need to consider tyre dimensions. A lot of people go for the tallest, fattest tyres they can find. Like the suspension lifters, it's a path that leads to a less capable vehicle that just looks aggressive to the uninformed. There's a good reason that LR stuck to 7.50s on the Camel Trophy and the MoD still use them on their Defender fleet - their height gives a good balance between ground clearance and driving torque, clearance of the wheelarches, steering lock and resistance to being pulled off the rim, while their width enables them to cut through the crap on the surface of wet terrain and find grip underneath; wide tryes float above, giving worse grip in mud and are more prone to aquaplaning on wet roads. The only places wide tyres are beneficial are where you would also reduce pressures to increase the footprint, ie on sand and snow. WMIK and desrt patrol Defenders in Afghanistan are using bigger tyres than 7.50s, but that's because of the very heavy nature of those particular Defenders and the sandy conditions. Have a look at the tyres on WWI trucks and see how they coped with the mud in Flanders, the Somme and so on to see what I'm getting at.
 
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ebg18t

Adventurer
On my D2 I went from a 3" lift with narrow 32" AT tires to a 4.5" lift with more flex and wider 33" MT tires. If I was to do it again I would have kept the smaller lift and the narrower tires. Maybe used a MT instead of the AT.

The amount of flex and articulation I needed for most trails and exploration was satisfied by the stock or mildly lifted vehicle. The narrower tires kept the rotating weight down and preserved the road handling, not to mention the fuel milage.

Since my D2 was destroyed I m building up a 4Runner. I opted for a basic 3" lift with quality shocks and narrow MT tires. In the big picture this will deal 99% of my situations. I can't think of a situation where I felt I wishing had an extra inch of droop or flex.

My list is:
1-mild lift for clearance
2-quality narrow tires
3-locker or trutrac diff
4-have fun
 

I Leak Oil

Expedition Leader
Being mired in mud or snow is usually why I get stuck. Up to the axles or frame, front and rear lockers don't even help. No amount of articulation is going to help me there. As has been mentioned though, it really depends on the terrain. Sufficient tire size and sufficient articulation will get you a long way.
 

denisimo

New member
You right Mike, a tire can make a huge diference by it self in a good way and a bad way.
In the past i used tires that were good all around in most driving condtions and in worst condition i hoped for best .
Worst part is when you dont have a buddy to pull you out, thats when good old elbow grease comes in handy.
 

LR Max

Local Oaf
X2 on lockers. I saw this weekend a Stock Rubicon (less than 3000 miles on that truck) walk through many obstacles that non-locked JKs and TJs got their rear ends handed to them. Seriously, he locked both axles and just eased through everything like it wasn't a problem.

If you want more capability, add a locker. I've got a rear locker which has allowed me to get through all kinds of nonsense (was hoping to add a front locker this winter but that is questionable right now) so that'll give you what you are looking for.

Here in the southeast, auto lockers have proven to be the tool for the job. They just work.
 
I wouldn't put an auto locker on a LR with TC. I had a 2005 Rubicon and when the roads were icy there were times that all the lockers did was let 4 tires spin. TC on the other hand has let me drive over icy roads that would have left me stuck in the Jeep. In fact I drove through this same snow storm pulling out 5 different trucks including a tow truck. We saw probably 50-75 cars that had been abandoned while we drove around. Here's a link to a cool video of it. This was last winter in Colorado Springs

http://youtu.be/IdIpgOuCyd4

juhave8u.jpg

My wife tried to get a video of me pulling him out but it turned out horribly blurry. He was on his way to recover a truck about 500yds farther than he made it. We pulled that one out too. I'm a big believer in TC and Super Swamper tires ;)
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
... and I'm not a fan of auto lockers on vehicles that will see ice, snow, or off-camber slick surfaces. A selectable locker is vastly superior because it can be turned off.

Years ago, back when I lived in the southeast and ran places like Tellico, I ran manual lockers. I also ran BFG ATs, which were next to worthless in the clay-based mud. Jeeps with less articulation, no lockers, but better tires (more aggressive tread design) were having a much easier time of it. What's worse, the auto lockers would affect steering in the front and the rear axle would try to catch the front by taking the downhill route on sidehills. Those lockers and tires were replaced by ARBs and Swampers as soon as finances permitted, and performance took a quantum leap forward.

What works is completely dependent on the vehicle in question and the terrain.

Back when I used to run a 4 wheel drive club up here, we used to get questions about how to modify a vehicle all of the time. Our answers usually went like this:
  1. A well-maintained vehicle.
  2. Properly rated, frame-mounted recovery points and at least a good tow strap. This was a requirement.
  3. Aggressive mud tires (Swampers are favored) with the appropriate amount of lift. Bigger is not always better, because a broken truck is worse than a stuck truck.
  4. A properly-rated/mounted winch and the appropriate accessories.
  5. Lockers, preferrably manual (ARB, e-Locker, Ox...).

Lockers were always at the bottom of the list, partially based on expense, but also based on their utility compared to the other items on the list.

I like the extraction part of 4 wheeling. It's a problem-solving exercise, whch is (to me) more fun than just driving over everything. This is fortunate, because most trips up here worth mentioning usually involve multiple extractions. I've spent 8 hours going 4 miles before, and it was a blast.
 

Snagger

Explorer
Once again, I agree with Mike. Tryres are the principal off-road ability factor. Suspension and lockers are pointless if there is no grip to be had, and they're far more expensive and difficult to fit than a set of tyres. If you still need extra help once you have optimised the tyres, then selectable lockers would be my next recommendation - with any three tyres in contact, you should make headway, and with just two contacts and lockers, you should still progress, but tall and soft suspension will only help over rocks.
 

bri

Adventurer
Its all preference. Good tires are the best to do first. Nothing else required, really. Then I'd do locker, armor and last lift.

On a rover lockers and axles are about equal with lift. Bumps, shafts, radius arms, trailing arms, shock mounts, shocks, springs, retainers, re-drilled swivel balls. You can easily get into a 3k lift.

After getting some BFGs on the rig the next thing I WOULD DO would be lockers and axles.

But lift looks so cool. Forget about it, go stealth. Lockers are so much more fun.
 

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