Bill Burke article on Bad Eggs

[Pskhaat]

All rhetoric aside, I have to factually agree with BB here as this week in Moab I've seen more damage than at any time before. He's correct about the cryptobiotic soil, if you havn't seen the signs or read the posters everywhere in most languages I can't imagine how one just doesn't know this.

It's not education that helps here, everyone KNOWS what's cool and not, it's just that so few people CARE! I have no answers for this case other than increased fees for access (4wd, hiking, biking, whatever) and equally increased enforcement in all regards. That's a lofty goal, but seriously, what else can you do with a vast and growing populace that simply does not care about our environment? It's a metaphoric snapshot into society and goverments.

 

[calamaridog]

All rhetoric aside, I have to factually agree with BB here as this week in Moab I've seen more damage than at any time before. He's correct about the cryptobiotic soil, if you havn't seen the signs or read the posters everywhere in most languages I can't imagine how one just doesn't know this.

It's not education that helps here, everyone KNOWS what's cool and not, it's just that so few people CARE! I have no answers for this case other than increased fees for access (4wd, hiking, biking, whatever) and equally increased enforcement in all regards. That's a lofty goal, but seriously, what else can you do with a vast and growing populace that simply does not care about our environment? It's a metaphoric snapshot into society and goverments.

Increased enforcement? I've seldom ever seen "enforcement" of any kind and I've spent a bunch of time on the trail.

Education? Sorry, I disagree here, many still don't know right from wrong. I agree that many who DO know right from wrong still choose to do wrong.

Increased fees? Why? They will just steal the money for some political pork barrel project. The money never makes it to the intended place.

Growing number of users? That's right. More users and less trails = more resource damage to existing trail systems. Good formula for the ban and close crowd.

Hey, in a perfect world, people who drove off the trail (without a damn good reason) would just spontaneously combust :sunny:

As far as B Burke is concerned, he did the right thing and went about it, perhaps, in the wrong way.

 

[Ursidae69]

Increased enforcement is the answer that will get the most bang for the buck, not only in Moab, but all over the west. Right now enforcement is very rare to non-existent. To get more enforcement, the land agencies need more funding. Increased funding should come earmarked explicitly for enforcement so it is not used for other pork projects.

 

[Pskhaat]

I should also mention that the majority of damage appears from my recent wanderings in Moab to be from ATVs. I've seen the rock buggies and though there are probably a higher than normal % of bad folks who drive buggy, the ATV crowd seems to be the WORST.

Almost every trail (hiking & biking trails mind you, NOT simply 4WD trails) have been torn up by small track tires (ATV).

Why is this?

 

[Pskhaat]

Increased enforcement? I've seldom ever seen "enforcement" of any kind and I've spent a bunch of time on the trail.

Nor have I. That's why I believe a better presense will help.

Education? Sorry, I disagree here

I'm not (nor did I) condoning increased eductation, I think there's enough.

Increased fees? Why? They will just steal the money

There needs to be some type direct contribution mechanism. I don't have the answer but I can't imagine ther aren't like-minded lawyers out there who have set up means of direct funding.

 

[Scott Brady]

IMO, there needs to be a "sticker" program that limits travel to street legal vehicles on public lands. Trailered buggy's only belong in OHV Parks and on Private Property...

The biggest issue with damage today is the fact that modern ATV's and Rock Buggy's are not challenged by the regular trail. They must blaze new routes to challenge the driver and machine.

I really hope with rock buggy phase ends soon, or it will be the end of OHV travel in the West as we know it.

Mother nature should not be their playground.

 

[Pskhaat]

I would have never in the past agreed with you there, but I do believe I am about to change my mind about licensing in the way you described.

 

[Scott Brady]

10 years ago, I would have never imagined it being necessary, but off-highway recreation has migrated from a hobby/means of exploration to a sport. If you look at any other OHV sport, like sand rails, etc. Their activities are usually confined to an area easily renewed (like sand) or where the impact can be managed.

Another issue has been the weakening of the local clubs. Virtual clubs now boast huge memberships (AZVJC has over 5,000 members) and no policies for impact, education or policing. I was called out as a young man for going off trail by members of the club I belong to. They did it in a way that was gracious, and it changed the way I looked at things. These new virtual clubs are a testosterone fest, with everyone trying to outdo each other.

I talk about tread lightly EVERY TIME I travel with a group. I want my position known before we even shift into 4WD.

I have talked about "environmental sustainability" before, and these new high power, high clearance buggy's and ATV's create an unsustainable cycle.

33" tires - locking diffs = 5 rates trail 10 years ago
35" tires - locking diffs = required new trails, like Axle Alley
37" tires - locking diffs - long travel = Die Trying, new Hammer Trails, etc.
38" tires - no body - adjustable suspension = NO TRAILS, just drive where you like

What is next? 50" tires with computer controlled suspension leveling, nitrous, self leveling cabs, etc.?

The cycle cannot be supported by our poorly monitored public lands.

...Sorry for the soup box...

 

[Alaska Mike]

The problem.

The problem with limiting trail use to only street legal vehicles is that they continue to narrow the definition of street legal, effectively limiting what is and isn't a trail. Trail closure through equipment regulation. The environmental lobbies have been doing this for years. Would you prefer nothing higher than stock (suspension/tires) on trails?

I've never seen the need for tires larger than 33" on a smaller vehicle (i.e. Jeep or Toyota truck), preferring to use tactics and recovery tools to achieve the desired result. It keeps breakage down, makes for an interesting challenge, and in many cases limits impact. However, there are situations where a little more is required. Not everyone is into the same terrain or way of wheeling.

Rock (or im my part of the world, tundra) buggies are an intersting offshoot. There are places where they are in their element and provide the least damaging mode of transport. However, the often end up in the wrong hands or are poorly engineered (form over function) and end up doing nothing but damage. The magazines glorify highly built rigs as the only mode of real wheeling. Real adventure wheeling has become a footnote, with narratives mainly concentrating on breakage and what I call "status wheeling". A new, impressionable wheeler would come away with the idea that large tires and high horsepower are the quick route to mastery. Highly built rigs have their place in our sport. However, when they become the rule rather than exception, we need to look at what's driving the change.

A buddy of mine who has competed in the Outback Challenge and other events recently purchased a stock early CJ-5 to run on trails now. His competition rig became boring on normal trails, and he quickly realized that wheeling on a more basic level provides that thrill of problem solving and tactical driving- even on a "mild" trail. I applaud this approach and hope it catches on.

It's a tough balance. Obviously EJS has gotten out of hand, and the organizers no longer can control the masses their event attracts. I'd say it no longer is a positive reflection of our sport. Either they fix it in a meaningful way, or do away with the event altogether. Any time you get that many people together, you are obviously going to have the undesirables that ruin it for everyone. The organizer's inability to police the event put wheeling in that area at risk. However, the "ban them all" approach will only bite us all in the end.

 

[calamaridog]

The problem with limiting trail use to only street legal vehicles is that they continue to narrow the definition of street legal, effectively limiting what is and isn't a trail. Trail closure through equipment regulation. The environmental lobbies have been doing this for years. Would you prefer nothing higher than stock (suspension/tires) on trails?

Yes and no. I think of rigs like guns; some are ok for all ranges while others are too large or powerful for some ranges. I should be able to use all of my guns somewhere but not necessarily at the same places.

I've never seen the need for tires larger than 33" on a smaller vehicle (i.e. Jeep or Toyota truck), preferring to use tactics and recovery tools to achieve the desired result. It keeps breakage down, makes for an interesting challenge, and in many cases limits impact. However, there are situations where a little more is required. Not everyone is into the same terrain or way of wheeling.

I've never owned a tire larger than 33". My junk seems to go the same places as other junk.

Rock (or im my part of the world, tundra) buggies are an intersting offshoot. There are places where they are in their element and provide the least damaging mode of transport. However, the often end up in the wrong hands or are poorly engineered (form over function) and end up doing nothing but damage. The magazines glorify highly built rigs as the only mode of real wheeling. Real adventure wheeling has become a footnote, with narratives mainly concentrating on breakage and what I call "status wheeling". A new, impressionable wheeler would come away with the idea that large tires and high horsepower are the quick route to mastery. Highly built rigs have their place in our sport. However, when they become the rule rather than exception, we need to look at what's driving the change.

Small penis syndrome must drive the craze. Or advertising dollars?

A buddy of mine who has competed in the Outback Challenge and other events recently purchased a stock early CJ-5 to run on trails now. His competition rig became boring on normal trails, and he quickly realized that wheeling on a more basic level provides that thrill of problem solving and tactical driving- even on a "mild" trail. I applaud this approach and hope it catches on.

I agree. The best wheeling I've ever done was in the stock 1957 Willy's that my Grandfather bought new.

It's a tough balance. Obviously EJS has gotten out of hand, and the organizers no longer can control the masses their event attracts. I'd say it no longer is a positive reflection of our sport. Either they fix it in a meaningful way, or do away with the event altogether. Any time you get that many people together, you are obviously going to have the undesirables that ruin it for everyone. The organizer's inability to police the event put wheeling in that area at risk. However, the "ban them all" approach will only bite us all in the end.

I see no problem with smaller events but you are right, some of the larger events are out of control. And yes, undesirables seem to appear at all events. Let them know why they are undesirable and they tend to learn or leave.

 

[Ursidae69]

Scott,

The rock buggy phase won't be ending anytime soon I don't think. However, they are not the main problem. The ATVs are the main problem and that certainly won't be ending. The ATVs get more and more capable every year.

On Saturday, I drove forest road 143 from Lake Roosevelt to Beeline Highway. This is a great road that crosses over the mountains just north of 4 peaks. It's all 2wd, but still pretty. Many of the areas are burned up there and one thing I noticed was more than 20 new ATV tracks through the burned areas. It's easy to drive your quad off-road through the areas now because it's a moonscape in places. The erosion is already really high due to the burn, now these new ATV tracks will only make it worse. In a year, these illegal ATV tracks will be big enough for a jeep and then a year later my Tacoma could drive on them. It's a bad cycle. I passed over a hundred quads on this single morning on one FS road, saw another 20-30 motorcycles, and 30 or so folks shooting guns leaving trash behind, etc... How many law enforcement officers did I see? NONE of course. The answer to all the problems lies in enforcement. Enforcement, enforcement, enforcement!!!!!!!!!!! This requires funding and that makes it's political... Once it gets political, forget about it.

 

[Alaska Mike]

Yes and no. I think of rigs like guns; some are ok for all ranges while others are too large or powerful for some ranges. I should be able to use all of my guns somewhere but not necessarily at the same places.

Who decides what is and isn't too powerful/big? That's my issue here. Will someday my 33"-shod rig be considered excessive, since it exceeds the original configuration? I'm no fan of 95% of the buggies out there, since they serve no real functional purpose (other than to feed their owners egos). However, the issue isn't really with the tool, it's with the tool behind the wheel. Properly used, buggies can be extremely low impact. The problem occurs when the owner doesn't feel properly challenged and deviates from an approved route. Unfortunately, you can't legislate common sense or personal responsibility.

 

[Scott Brady]

Who decides what is and isn't too powerful/big? That's my issue here. Will someday my 33"-shod rig be considered excessive, since it exceeds the original configuration? I'm no fan of 95% of the buggies out there, since they serve no real functional purpose (other than to feed their owners egos). However, the issue isn't really with the tool, it's with the tool behind the wheel. Properly used, buggies can be extremely low impact. The problem occurs when the owner doesn't feel properly challenged and deviates from an approved route. Unfortunately, you can't legislate common sense or personal responsibility.

I hear what you are saying Mike...

My opinion is that if a vehicle is street legal, it can be on public land. That means you need a drivers license too. This should also apply to quads and motorcycles. Unlicensed buggy's, quads and motorcycles should only be in OHV areas or on private land.

Don't change any of the current laws for what makes a vehicle street legal. The jacked-up full size trucks are mall queens anyways....

I wish it wasn't this way, but it is, and closures only punish the ones doing the right thing.

 

[goodtimes]

Buggy's aren't going away, and buggies aren't the problem. Most people know I like to run harder trails with my jeep (33" tires and all). Give me a good 4.0 or a 4.5, and I'm happy. I rarely see buggies on these trails as they are too easy for them....so they go somewhere else. There are trails suitable for them. Of course we rarely see these trails because what makes them suitable for the buggies makes them unsuitable for us....we simply don't go there. IMO, there needs to be trails for them. If there is a place for them to go do thier thing, they will go there. Imagine what it would be like if we closed down Glamis. We would have sand rails all over the desert looking for their kicks....give them a place to go, and they will go there. You will always have that small group of individuals who stray from the mainstream croud and do stupid things....and we need to enforce our laws to protect the enviroment from them. They are the problem. the 1%. The ones who ruin it for the rest of us. Without education for the people who don't know better (particularly the 16 - 24 year olds who have way too much testosterone in their bodies), and enforcement for those who simply don't care, then it won't get any better.

Scott, you bring up a great point about the lack of clubs, which equates to lack of leadership and role models for younger 'wheelers. It seems that every run I go on is with a different group of people...all loosly associated through a few websites. In fact, I can't recall the last time I went 'wheeling with someone that I did not initially meet via the internet.

Back to buggies.....For every buggy I see off the trail, I see at least 10 stock or near stock vehicles off the trail trying to get around a obstical that they either don't like, or cant get through. The problem is not the buggys, it is the ************** driving vehicles off the trail. FWIW, it is currently illegal to operate a uninsured, unlicensed vehicle on any public road. It is illegal to drive any vehicle off of a designated road or trail. Creating a sticker program will accomplish nothing. What needs to happen is enforcement of existing laws. If and when the enforcement of those laws proves inefficient, then, and only then, should more laws be considered. Much like gun laws....new laws make no sense if you can't even enforce the ones you already have. If we take the mentality that new laws will solve the problem, then we will legislate our passtime out of existance.

And lastly, just to clarify a point: The problem I have with BB's article is the manner in which it is presented, and the stereotypes he is enforcing. His message is correct at the core....there is a problem and we need to deal with it.

 

[Ursidae69]

What needs to happen is enforcement of existing laws. If and when the enforcement of those laws proves inefficient, then, and only then, should more laws be considered. Much like gun laws....new laws make no sense if you can't even enforce the ones you already have. If we take the mentality that new laws will solve the problem, then we will legislate our passtime out of existance.

Exactly. So, we need to get big groups like the BRC to organize letter writing campaigns regarding more funding for enforcement. Sadly, more funding is not available across the board due to Katrina, the war, debt, politics, etc. The bottom line is that extremist envionmental groups can sue to close any area where the laws are not enforced and they have a good point is doing so.