BJ74 TD Build Thread - Stoffregen Motorsports

Clintnz

Observer
Very nice work! Good little nugget of info on the Terrain Tamer handbrake mod too - might have to get or copy some of those links.

Are you going to make the rear wheel arches bigger? Looks like you'd be packing the bumpstops down a lot to keep the rubber off the sheetmetal in the last pics?

Cheers
Clint
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
So you're suggesting that because the suspension is unloaded that there might be wheel hop? The triangulation of the control arms (both vertically and horizontally) was designed to control the axle through it's cycle of travel so there shouldn't be anything weird going on when the tire is dropped out.

Also, the shock is pressurized so up until the point of full extension, there is some pressure applied to the ground.

As I mentioned before, I don't think it can be traced back to a single issue, but rather to a combined list of factors...

We generally know that most link suspensions start to have undesirable characteristics when operating outside of a certain window. This is why we can't typically lift everything to the moon and not suffer side effects. Personally, I think this window is MUCH smaller than most people do. I start to pick up on a lot of undesirable characteristics pretty quickly when altering a factory suspensions. Suspension geometry typically becomes more problematic on droop in my experience because of the higher anti-squat numbers, and positive roll slopes, you typically see. As you push that window further and further you can run into situations where the tire starts to behave 'badly'. As AS increases tire loading can become much more 'harsh' which can induce the 'wheel hop' you mentioned. Basically the tire is having a hard time moving the vehicle in the desired direction.

Shock pressure has an effect on spring rate for sure ( roughly -60lbs on a 5/8 shaft and -120lbs on a 7/8 shaft at 200psi ). A captured coil should basically have a negative input for spring rate however. The un-sprung weight (and shock charge ) are 'pushing' down ( bad wording )....but once the coil is past it's free length...it is actually pulling up. That would be a decrease of weight on that corner. I think we can agree what drop out spring systems, basically no pre-load at all, didn't work very well. So what else can the captured coil be providing....

I think one positive bonus to a captured coil system could be increasing the anti-roll effect, especially if there is no anti-roll bar present on the suspension.
If the suspension needs sway control, it is probably best done with a sway-bar system so you don't have a negative effect when both tires are moving down ( soft bottom )

Personally, I would much rather see a coil/shock length that was matched to provide some preload on the coil at full extension on the shock. I think preload is good because it is forcing the tire down towards the extension limit of the shock rather than waiting for gravity to do it. I haven't seen that much bonus over the years in having that extra inch or two of soft droop that a captured coil would provide over a pre-load coil system. I would much rather find a way to turn that extra shock space around to provide more bump travel in the suspension from side height. I see a larger overall bonus to more up-travel/bump/jounce than down-travel/droop/rebound

Just to be clear. I am just trying to pass on my viewpoint, not trying to tell you what to do. I love your work. I am just curious why people do that they do.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
i would like comment on this: if you haven't tried to compress a fox or king shock loaded with 200PSI of nitrogen by hand, then you really cannot fathom how much pressure these shocks create. if anything, these race quality shocks are worthy of contributing to spring rates.

Yes, it changes things, but can and should be accounted for. With a 5/8" shaft it likely isn't a huge deal, but once you step up to the 7/8" stuff it gets about 2x as bad (or good?)
I don't know how many people are running big boy shocks on oem style bolt in mounts. They are out there for some applications however.
 
As I mentioned before, I don't think it can be traced back to a single issue, but rather to a combined list of factors...

Just to be clear. I am just trying to pass on my viewpoint, not trying to tell you what to do. I love your work. I am just curious why people do that they do.

I agree with you 100%. All of those factors are what make building a suspension stressful. If you get it wrong, you've created a monster. In this particular instance, I don't think any problems exist to any degree to which I am concerned. The minimal ride height and the flat control arm angles help ensure that this suspension cycle does not bring out that monster.

When I start a build thread, I am actually looking for a good debate. All positive comments are nice (nice job, good stuff, keep it coming, etc) but the comments that help make me do better work are the ones like you've given. Thank you.
 
Very nice work! Good little nugget of info on the Terrain Tamer handbrake mod too - might have to get or copy some of those links.

Are you going to make the rear wheel arches bigger? Looks like you'd be packing the bumpstops down a lot to keep the rubber off the sheetmetal in the last pics?

Cheers
Clint

Future plans include opening up the rear fender opening, but for now, it will remain un-cut. Until then, tire contact is a concern. It's difficult to build something with future plans in mind and still satisfy the as-buiilt requirements.

Those little dogbones for the brakes are cool, aren't they? I want to make some for my Dodge.
 

big a

Adventurer
Man, this is the way it should be, a humble honest debate for growth! To bad the rest of our society doesn't think this way! Great job Mr Stoffregen!!!!

-Andy
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I agree with you 100%. All of those factors are what make building a suspension stressful. If you get it wrong, you've created a monster. In this particular instance, I don't think any problems exist to any degree to which I am concerned. The minimal ride height and the flat control arm angles help ensure that this suspension cycle does not bring out that monster.

When I start a build thread, I am actually looking for a good debate. All positive comments are nice (nice job, good stuff, keep it coming, etc) but the comments that help make me do better work are the ones like you've given. Thank you.

Yup. I agree. Good stuff.
 
Put the first miles on the truck yesterday and the only issue that came up was a dragging parking brake shoe on the passenger rear. I guess I'm not surprised that there was only one issue. I-dotting and t-crossing has always been my thing, but it's nice, none the less, to get in a truck that you haven't driven for a year and not have a million things pop up that need attention.

Part of the latest stint was mounting the shifter for the "Black Box" reduction box. I made a cool little shroud for it that mounts to the floor. I also got the front bumper yesterday so that needs modding and mounting.

Expect pics soon.
 

marshal

Burrito Enthusiast
i gotta say, if there was one person in this world that i would want to hire to swap 1 ton solid axles and a LS3 v8 into my 4Runner, it would be you.
 

toymaster

Explorer
Personally, I would much rather see a coil/shock length that was matched to provide some preload on the coil at full extension on the shock. I think preload is good because it is forcing the tire down towards the extension limit of the shock rather than waiting for gravity to do it. I haven't seen that much bonus over the years in having that extra inch or two of soft droop that a captured coil would provide over a pre-load coil system. I would much rather find a way to turn that extra shock space around to provide more bump travel in the suspension from side height. I see a larger overall bonus to more up-travel/bump/jounce than down-travel/droop/rebound

Just to be clear. I am just trying to pass on my viewpoint, not trying to tell you what to do. I love your work. I am just curious why people do that they do.

Metcalf,

If I have followed your comments correctly I may can answer part of your questions. Having less up-travel is part of trying to get a lower center of gravity, a trade-off as it were. Of course, we are talking in general terms once you apply these concepts to a particular body (or budget) these trade-off and decisions become more apparent. A builder or client may not want to have the top shock mount in the interior of the vehicle. Also, in general, up-travel is more valuable in high-speed trials and down-travel is more valuable in low-speed trails. So, the purpose of the rig comes into play.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Metcalf,

If I have followed your comments correctly I may can answer part of your questions. Having less up-travel is part of trying to get a lower center of gravity, a trade-off as it were. Of course, we are talking in general terms once you apply these concepts to a particular body (or budget) these trade-off and decisions become more apparent. A builder or client may not want to have the top shock mount in the interior of the vehicle. Also, in general, up-travel is more valuable in high-speed trials and down-travel is more valuable in low-speed trails. So, the purpose of the rig comes into play.

I don't think it is that simple.

As the sport has advanced there has been a big push to have more up-travel while trying to keep overall height down. My flat fender is a good example of how that can be done. It is still 'stock' suspension height basically, if not slightly lower than stock, but I was still able to find room for a 35" tire AND 4.5" of uptravel ( vertical, not articulation ) at each corner. It did take a ton of work, but the end result was very much worth it.

The other part of the topic that is glossed over a lot is 'quality of travel' vs 'quantity of travel'. What a vehicle can do with a properly built suspension and even a 10" shock is pretty amazing. Personally I don't see much use for a non-race vehicle to have more than a 10-12" shock. A well tuned vehicle with that much shock set about 50/50 in the travel range can do anything well without getting crazy in any one direction.

The other interesting thing that happens with wheel travel as far as up/down. As the vehicle becomes more biased to having less and less uptravel, the springs generally have to be lighter and lighter to maintain any chance of having some preload on the suspension at full droop. As the bias changes to having more uptravel than down travel ( which is rare ) the spring rate can increase slightly. Personally. I think the spring rate should be the lightest that can do the job that provides the ride height you want. Sadly in the aftermarket with off the shelf coils and leaf springs that is rare. Most manufacturers sacrifice spring rate in an effort to decrease body roll which leads to other issues. You can capture the spring but that can present some issues and limitations in the suspension.

I think the real answer is that most people want larger tires, but want a magic solution to fitting them on the vehicle without having side effects or added costs. Being able to fit larger tires should be taken into account across the entire build, not just lift height vs tire size. If you are having to lower the bumpstops at all from the factory settings you should be looking hard at why....and what you can do to eliminate that.
 
I don't think it is that simple.

...but I was still able to find room for a 35" tire AND 4.5" of uptravel ( vertical, not articulation ) at each corner.

Personally I don't see much use for a non-race vehicle to have more than a 10-12" shock.

I think the spring rate should be the lightest that can do the job that provides the ride height you want.

The minimum amount of bump, or up-travel, that I shoot for is 4". I can usually get that (on Toyotas) with a few simple tricks. Obviously tire size plays a huge roll in that equation, and not just in fender clearance. The 25% rule of vertical separation on the axle end link brackets comes into play. Most of my front 3 links have some form of motor mount or oil pan mod to make this possible.

On a trail rig, I shoot for 12" front and 10" rear minimum. It's pretty easy in most cases to fit 12's in the front and 10's in the rear. With the shock mount vs CL of axle tube geometry, the amount of wheel articulation is usually a good percent higher.

Total agreement on spring rates. Build 'em like a Nascar...soft springs, stiff sway bars.
 

Simons

Adventurer
So essentially only 2" of lift, can't get much lower than that. I suppose.
 
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