Photomike
White Turtle Adventures & Photography
50lbs???? How long do you go out for??
Camper for the Cold
- Thread starter Alloy
- Start date
50lbs???? How long do you go out for??
Alloy
Well-known member
Up to 10 days. We use up to 7lbs a day. I'm not sure how much we can get out of our 100lb on board tank when the temp drops. Last trip the temp dropped to -10F (-23.5C) with 15-25mph winds. I didn't want to be thawing a regulator or heating a tank at 3:00am so I ran off both the 100lb and 50lb at the same time.
lucilius
Active member
I realize this likely does not answer your question but an espar airtronic is very fuel efficient and can be left on for long periods of time, I would not be surprised if, depending on the size of your camper, a single airtronic could keep your rig very dry and warm in subzero temperatures. I've used several for over a decade in extremely cold conditions and they are game-changers. I think setting this up would cost ~$1000-2000 USD (depending on the unit and whether you want/need a separate fuel tank) or so and a pretty straightforward DIY. Maybe this would be easier and cheaper than getting a new camper or, in a any event, an appropriately-sized airtronic is a relatively easy mod that will make your winter camping a lot more comfortable. There is also a Canadian fellow on here, Victorian, who is confident in and sells a Russian-made stove that is apparently similar. I've never seen one but will say that Russians do far more than sip vodka when it gets cold: they make some very good reliable stuff for the cold that isn't overly burdened by unnecessary bells and whistles. Good luck and stay warm.
Alloy
Well-known member
Espar is make some good stuff. I considerd it but then I'd be carrying diesl along with propane. Ended up installing a Propex 2800 that I use down to 32F. Below 32F if runs as secontary heat becsue doesn't heat the FW tanks.
Sparse Gray Hackle
Morgan Freeman Imposter
The one and only time we’ve had any issue is when traveling from warm/very wet to dry/cold. We noticed light frost in a closed closet that was not getting heat. The next night we left the closet door open, no frost... We’ve never had another problem like that.
Heat and ventilation is needed in any camper. Furnace on, vent slightly open.
workerdrone
Well-known member
MFR's that make cold weather claims should use that FLIR imagery - really shows the weak and strong points.
Photomike
White Turtle Adventures & Photography
That seems high but you are now heating a bigger space then what a truck camper would be. As an example for a tcer when I was using my truck camper over a winter which would include probably two dozen days of really cold I would not even drain a full 20lb tank - I did have two on board but had to switch manually. Now I did get smart after a couple years and picked up a 110v electric heater so those nights that I had plugins I could use that. It was quieter then the propane and once the unit was up to temp it easily maintained it.
If you are looking at a truck camper check out how many propane tanks you can carry.
As for freezing the regulator. In a truck camper the tanks are inside a enclosure. Even with the venting it does help with keeping them a little warmer. On my truck camper the compartment was sealed completely - it was an older unit before we worried about blowing ourselves up
I had camped in the -30c and never had an issue with freezing anything. I have seen where people have wrapped the tanks in heat blankets and that would also keep the compartment a little warmer. For me it was a waste of my power.I currently use an Espar in my van and so far I love it. My van is gas and so is the Espar so I only have to carry one fuel. Not sure I would use a gas one in a truck camper as that would be a pain to plumb / wire in.
Here is an article that I wrote on cold weather camping, click on the pdf when on the page
Here is one that I wrote on heating
The suggestion on opening vents to dry out is great!!!!! I would leave a vent slightly open at night and then every morning open vents and windows to dry out. I am also a fresh air nut so even at home I have windows open in -40c. To also help with frost build up a camper with heat ducts is better as you have less dead air space then just a furnace blowing out in one spot.
Porkchopexpress
Well-known member
I have read several articles on cold weather modifications for RVs with good tips. Mostly involves stopping airflow where you don't want it and adding insulation in areas like windows and vents.
Try googling cold weather modifications for rv camper or something like that.
Try googling cold weather modifications for rv camper or something like that.
Mundo4x4Casa
West slope, N. Ser. Nev.
We like our new Northstar Laredo SC hardside camper during the winter. It has the so called sub-zero insulation package (at extra cost) that has proved its effectiveness for us, at least down to +15 F a few days ago. For a mating pair of Californians, that-is-bone-chilling. Beyond the insulation we ordered fewer windows and those that we have are Euro Vision, dual pane windows with argon or some kind of gas between the panes. All the windows have a silvery thermal window shades that completely block out the light, and by extension some of the cold. There must be some insulation in the floor as I was moving around in comfort in my wool socks for a couple hours. Cold spots because of aluminum framing is not a woe since our frame is all wood. No detectable cold spots, or mysterious zephyrs yet. The secrets are, 1. venting. There is a sweet spot (definitely a feel) on our roof vent (directly above the Lagun table) to expend water vapor while we are playing 7 Crowns or Backgammon depending on the resistance of the actual temp outside trying to sink, which as outline above depends on the vapor content of the air itself. It depends on if the warmer air in the box can overcome the cold air aloft. Then again, we have not been below zero yet. 2. Closing off the cabover area with the curtain and closing the bathroom accordion door. With this effort we could raise the temp in what's left of the living box to heat, just with our two body temps, actually raising the temp a couple degrees when it was less than +20F degrees outside. We set the small built in propane heater on a one degree differential overnight and it would come on for about 90 seconds every hour or so, keeping the box a toasty 50F degrees. To keep the overall height of the camper down, we have no basement. The 41 gallon water tank and AGM batteries are in the living area, so nothing to worry about there unless we exit the box and leave it heatless for a few hours. We turn the hot water heater on and open the tank door a crack if it's going to be cold outside and let the insulated tank slowly die overnight. The cassette toilet separate flush tank is 100% 'Pink' (50F below RV antifreeze) during the winter months. If it's really cold, I will drain the tanks and winterize the lines with 'pink', using drinking/coffee water from gallon jugs stored in the living area. I tried going 'dry' a few times, blowing out the lines with compressed air, but you can never get all the water out of the bottom of the water pump at the filter unless you completely remove it.
This is a far cry from our now sold 1998 Lance Lite 165-s, 8.5 foot camper with approaching zero insulation. It would get cold in there even with the propane heater and separate heat buddy sucking up the prop. Once when we got down to +7F degrees the whole thing froze up so we could not dump the tanks and the water pump froze and bottom blew off. But, we learn. I eventually added a lot of insulation to the Lance, in cupboard walls, behind every cabinet; around the fridge box; in all the vents with mostly cut pieces of 2 inch closed cell foam; and glued right over the pass through and front window. I think it was blue or pink foam. It did raise the R-value of our heat retention but there were still those aforementioned cold spots.
jefe
This is a far cry from our now sold 1998 Lance Lite 165-s, 8.5 foot camper with approaching zero insulation. It would get cold in there even with the propane heater and separate heat buddy sucking up the prop. Once when we got down to +7F degrees the whole thing froze up so we could not dump the tanks and the water pump froze and bottom blew off. But, we learn. I eventually added a lot of insulation to the Lance, in cupboard walls, behind every cabinet; around the fridge box; in all the vents with mostly cut pieces of 2 inch closed cell foam; and glued right over the pass through and front window. I think it was blue or pink foam. It did raise the R-value of our heat retention but there were still those aforementioned cold spots.
jefe
I think most of the posters here are coming close but missing one important point. Your heating source. There is an excellent reason to go away from direct-fired propane heat. Propane is a "wet" gas and burning propane in your RV creates a lot of moisture.
For a real cold weather set up you need to look at heating the RV indirectly. Espar, webasto these are all good examples, the large high end RV's use hydronic heating where a diesel or propane fired boiler circulates either water or usually glycol around to radiators throughout the camper IE ( Aquahot ) . With this kind of system you could also do a heated floor if that would work better. Cuts way down on the moisture addition to the inside of the camper. NuCamp is trying a system from ALDE that is propane fired.
If you want a real "winter camping" unit you would probably need three things:
1. Envelope without or very low thermal bridging: IE composite construction
2. All water and critical systems inside the envelope and heated
3. Indirect heating source - may be wise to have a backup as well
The high end manufacturers all do this though the products are expensive. Off the top of my head, BlissMobil, GXV, Earthroamer, Earthcruiser, Overland Explorer, or Total Composites (Victorian here on ExPo) if you wanted to build your own.
Could possibly get there cheaper and easier with a properly insulated frame of some type. I've seen a number of Bus builds that framed the interior in wood and spray foamed everything. So lots of options. Modifying a production unit of any kind only gets you so far.
For reference - I camp in snow and cold fairly often with my 2014 Outdoors RV. Well insulated for a production model but only really good down to 0F after that it gets uncomfortable and the propane burn and power associated with the furnace fan make it untenable for long stays.
I will be doing exactly as I've described above for my next build for this reason.
For a real cold weather set up you need to look at heating the RV indirectly. Espar, webasto these are all good examples, the large high end RV's use hydronic heating where a diesel or propane fired boiler circulates either water or usually glycol around to radiators throughout the camper IE ( Aquahot ) . With this kind of system you could also do a heated floor if that would work better. Cuts way down on the moisture addition to the inside of the camper. NuCamp is trying a system from ALDE that is propane fired.
If you want a real "winter camping" unit you would probably need three things:
1. Envelope without or very low thermal bridging: IE composite construction
2. All water and critical systems inside the envelope and heated
3. Indirect heating source - may be wise to have a backup as well
The high end manufacturers all do this though the products are expensive. Off the top of my head, BlissMobil, GXV, Earthroamer, Earthcruiser, Overland Explorer, or Total Composites (Victorian here on ExPo) if you wanted to build your own.
Could possibly get there cheaper and easier with a properly insulated frame of some type. I've seen a number of Bus builds that framed the interior in wood and spray foamed everything. So lots of options. Modifying a production unit of any kind only gets you so far.
For reference - I camp in snow and cold fairly often with my 2014 Outdoors RV. Well insulated for a production model but only really good down to 0F after that it gets uncomfortable and the propane burn and power associated with the furnace fan make it untenable for long stays.
I will be doing exactly as I've described above for my next build for this reason.
LandCruiserPhil
Expedition Leader
Does anyone use heated air exchanger like Propex or Webasto types in big campers? When used in a small cabin almost no condensation whereas forced-air in the same cabin creates condensation.
Photomike
White Turtle Adventures & Photography
Forced air cannot create condensation. If it does then you have a BIG problem. Forced air is like a home furnace and the water vapor in the propane is vented with the exhaust.
Propex, Webasto, Espar are the same design as a forced air (draw cold air in, return hot air, vent exhaust) but built differently and use a different fuel.
Many benefits and drawbacks with each type, I have used both and still have not made up my mind but leaning to liking the Espar I am now running in my van more then the RV furnace.
pugslyyy
Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
We had a Bigfoot with the cold weather package (double pane windows, etc) and found that when it got cold we still had sweating on the walls where the studs were. As others have noted, the stock propane heater sucks a lot of propane and a lot of power at very cold temps. I would strongly consider a diesel (or petrol) heater retrofit in place of the propane - you can even run it through the same ducts.
lucilius
Active member
Good points though I don't think I would want the complexity and multiple failure points I've seen in every in-floor hydronic system, in any offroad or even on-road camper: too much movement and rapid (compared to a house) temperature fluctuations. I've seen these systems fail in multiple homes and while they're a fine luxury, I'm convinced that simpler is almost always better when it comes to vehicles. I have twin Espar airtronics and one Espar hydronic for domestic hot water and engine pre-heating. 11 years with plenty of time in very cold conditions. Zero problems. It is moreover extremely important to ensure you have easy access to every bit of the plumbing/heating system.
Victorian
Approved Vendor : Total Composites
Agreed on the heat source. I have been in this industry for way too long and have tested/used/installed and sold many different brands and models.
The nicest way is hydronic heat. Down side of that is the time it takes to heat up the camper from standstill to room temperature. That system is also complex, adds weight and cost.
Second down the list is the Planar Diesel furnace. Same principle as the Webastos and Espars. Cold interior air is blown past a heat exchanger back into the interior. Works very very well with minimal electrical and fuel consumption. They are also easy to install. Why I mention the Planar? Well yes, we are a dealer.... BUT we became a dealer AFTER we installed and used one for a while. The reliability and robust construction convinced me. I hear from way too many people complain about heaters from the competition that are not reliable at twice the price of a planar. We have sold hundreds of them through the last 2 years and not a single customer came back with issues! We certainly appreciate if you buy from us but I personally find it more important to help forum members with real life experience. Do yourself a favour and get one. They are truly amazing!
The nicest way is hydronic heat. Down side of that is the time it takes to heat up the camper from standstill to room temperature. That system is also complex, adds weight and cost.
Second down the list is the Planar Diesel furnace. Same principle as the Webastos and Espars. Cold interior air is blown past a heat exchanger back into the interior. Works very very well with minimal electrical and fuel consumption. They are also easy to install. Why I mention the Planar? Well yes, we are a dealer.... BUT we became a dealer AFTER we installed and used one for a while. The reliability and robust construction convinced me. I hear from way too many people complain about heaters from the competition that are not reliable at twice the price of a planar. We have sold hundreds of them through the last 2 years and not a single customer came back with issues! We certainly appreciate if you buy from us but I personally find it more important to help forum members with real life experience. Do yourself a favour and get one. They are truly amazing!