Camper Thermal Engineering for Extreme Cold & High-Altitude: Arctic Antarctica Tibet

biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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1. The South Pole, Extreme Cold, High Altitude, and Altitude Sickness

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This thread will probably focus a great deal on vehicles specifically designed for use in Antarctica, because Antarctica is combines extreme cold with high altitude unlike any other place on earth. Everyone knows that Antarctica is cold. It's less commonly known that Antarctica is also a predominantly high-altitude "ice-plateau". Antarctica actually has the highest average elevation of any continent -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole .

The South Pole's altitude is 2,835 m above sea-level, or 9,300 feet, and the East Antarctic Ice Sheet reaches a maximum altitude of 4,091 meters, or 13,421 feet, at "Dome A". But the altitude is actually more than that, from the point of view of lowered air pressure. Low temperatures in Antarctica mean that atmospheric pressure falls off more rapidly with altitude, and so average air-pressure at Dome A actually corresponds to a “pressure-altitude” of 4,530 m, or 14,860 feet, for more temperate climates. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_A , and see post #27 in the "High Altitude Heating" thread, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page3 , for further discussion of the implications for a gen-set.

Similarly, if you read some South-Pole blogs, they relate how the South-Pole station's pressure-alititude is actually 10,000 - 11,000 feet -- see http://https://southpoledoc.wordpress.com/tag/amundsen-scott-south-pole-station/page/3/ .

In fact, the South Pole's true "pressure altitude" is so high, that altitude sickness presents a real medical problem for the recently arrived scientists who work there -- see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114308/ . About 50 % of recent arrivals to the South Pole show signs of altitude sickness in the first few days; 20 % have persistent symptoms more than 3 days after arrival, and 2 % develop life-threatening symptoms. Prince Harry also suffered altitude sickness on his way to the South Pole, and he was not alone -- see http://www.today.com/news/prince-ha...-exhaustion-during-south-pole-trek-2D79402025 , http://www.itv.com/news/2014-03-18/watch-prince-harrys-health-scare-during-south-pole-challenge/ , http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...captured-camera-124-mile-trek-South-Pole.html , and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ole-called-week-injury-toll-safety-fears.html :

So over in the "High-Altitude Heating" thread, I began wondering how ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicles in Antarctica not only cope with extreme cold, but also cope with extreme cold combined with low pressure at high-altitude. ICE vehicles with little campers attached range far and wide across Antarctica's ice plateau, for instance, Hagglunds' BV206 -- see http://www.bv206.co.uk . Such vehicles used to explore the plateau, or ferry supplies to the South Pole station, must be equipped to handle both high altitude and extreme cold, and handle both well.

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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2. The South-Pole Highway

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In particular, I began wondering how most of the supplies used to build the latest version of the South Pole station were transported there. Turns out that all of it was airlifted in, at great expense.

But since then, beginning in 2003 and finishing in 2006, the National Science Foundation constructed a "South Pole Highway" out of compressed snow, covering the roughly 1000 miles between McMurdo Station and the Pole. This "ice highway" was constructed primarily to reduce the costs of provisioning the (now expanded) South Pole Station, as well as to free up aircraft for Science missions in remote parts of the continent.

The South Pole Highway is traversed by Case and Caterpillar tractors towing combinations of sleds and/or fuel bladders, as pictured below. The South Pole station uses plenty of fuel, so one of the central objectives in building the highway was to reduce the cost of ferrying fuel there -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole_Traverse , http://antarcticsun.usap.gov/features/contenthandler.cfm?id=2650 , http://polar.crrel.usace.army.mil/projects/project-fuel_resupply.html , http://www.silvertonstandard.com/article.php?id=30 , http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...02/08/AR2011020800418.html?wpisrc=nl_headline , http://antarcticsun.usap.gov/features/contentHandler.cfm?id=1361 ,http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=105718 , http://antarcticsun.usap.gov/pastIssues/2005-2006/2006_01_01.pdf , http://web.archive.org/web/20070311030201/http://outside.away.com/news/headlines/20030130_1.html , http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3300#.U_UyUnmSf6k , http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf041213.htm , http://duvernois.blogspot.com/2011/12/south-pole-traverse.html , http://richardbarker.com/category/personal/antarctica/page/2/ , http://archive.fortune.com/galleries/2009/fortune/0911/gallery.south_pole_job.fortune/3.html , http://icecube.wisc.edu/news/view/98 , and http://neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov/science/slides.php?sciid=44 :

Here are some good videos about the South Pole Traverse:

And also see http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/livingsouthpole/video_pop09.jsp .

In the first video above, a tracked vehicle in front tows cargo boxes on sleds as well as habitation modules on skis. These vehicles need to have cabin/camper heating systems as well as internal combustion engines that can cope well with both extreme cold and high-altitude, keeping their occupants cosy and warm for 30 - 40 days, the time it takes to travel the ice highway. Although the South Pole appears completely flat and presumably low-altitude, it's actually 9,300 feet above sea level (or again, more like 10,000 or 11,000 feet, in terms of "pressure-altitude"), and very cold, even during the Austral summer. So the heating systems on these vehicles seem worth investigating further.

What I previously posted about McMurdo station vehicles (e.g. the Terrabus) should then be read as "pre-amble" to what I hope will eventually evolve into a discussion about:

(a) ice-highway vehicles, and their high-altitude/extreme-cold heating solutions,

and

(b) the heating solutions of Antarctic exploration vehicles more generally.

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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3. Some More Images of the South Pole Station

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Here are some more images of the South-Pole station, to provide a visual sense of the ultimate intended destination of the "South Pole Highway".

Again, for further information, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amundsen-Scott_South_Pole_Station , http://www.southpolestation.com/newpole/newpole.html ,http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/livingsouthpole/station_new.jsp , http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/livingsouthpole/pdf_files/Centennial_Poster_Front_1sm.pdf , http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/livingsouthpole/pdf_files/Centennial_Poster_Back_1sm.pdf , http://www.usap.gov/videoclipsandmaps/spwebcam.cfm , http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/livingsouthpole/photos_newstat.jsp , http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/obop/spo/livecamera.html , http://www.southpolestation.com , http://ferrarochoi.com , http://ferrarochoi.com/portfolio_page/amundsen/ , http://ferrarochoi.com/portfolio/ , http://ferrarochoi.com/publications/master-plan-for-the-south-pole-redevelopment-project/ , http://ferrarochoi.com/portfolio_page/ferraz-station/ , http://ferrarochoi.com/portfolio_page/india-research-station/ , http://www.tropolism.com/2008/01/south_pole_gets_new_building.php , and http://beyondthebackyard.com/2013/12/10/the-new-south-pole-station/ .

Here are some more "Front-yard" views:

biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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Here are some "Back-yard" views of the South Pole station. The first images are aerial shots that show the entire main complex, front and back yard:

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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The following are ground and site plans, cut-away illustrations, schematics, and the original concept illustrations for the South Pole station:

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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4. The South Pole Telescope

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The South Pole Telescope and the "Ice Cube" Neutrino Observatory are located some distance away from the main complex of the South Pole Station. The aerial shot below gives a good idea of the distance:

For some interesting web-links for the South Pole telescope, see http://www.exploratorium.edu/tv/index.php?program=820&project=9 , http://pole.uchicago.edu/public/ , http://pole.uchicago.edu/spt/ , http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ang-inflation-telescope-south-pole-astronomy/ , http://www.nature.com/news/telescope-captures-view-of-gravitational-waves-1.14876 , http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/26/scientists-gravitational-waves-science , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole_Telescope .

Here are some images of the South Pole Telescope:

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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The green lights in the sky are of course the Aurora Australis -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora , http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28927311 , http://vimeo.com/104739541, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icugqEEOgkg , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggkKRg35aLM , and http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aurora+australis+south+pole :

aurora-australis-over-antarctica-captured-by-nasa-image-satellite.jpg

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5. "Ice Cube", the South Pole Neutrino Observatory

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Here are some images of "Ice Cube", the South Pole neutrino observatory -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IceCube_Neutrino_Observatory , https://icecube.wisc.edu/about/explained
http://icecube.wisc.edu/gallery , http://icecube.wisc.edu , https://www.facebook.com/icecube.neutrino , and http://news.discovery.com/space/galaxies/alien-neutrinos-detected-in-south-pole-ice-131122.htm :

biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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First Batch of Email Correspondence with David Weimer, about the South Pole Traverse

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As noted above, I've been in touch with David Weimer, a participant on the South Pole Traverse, or "SPOT". David kindly agreed to answer a lengthy list of questions about SPOT, many of them questions about high-altitude/extreme-cold vehicles and heating. David is waiting to hear back from some of the traverse mechanics with more specific information about particular products. When I hear back from David again, I will then post additional information in the "slot" that I have reserved just below.

Here is our email correspondence so far:

Hi Biotect,

Sure you can use the pictures, as long as the copyright info is still attached. I know its lame of me to copyright them but I've had people try to sell my photos without permission.

So, the traverse uses Webasto and Espar AirTronic heaters to warm the cabs of our tractors (only used in morning). We also have Espar's Hydronic heaters to prewarm the engines glycol before startup.

Side note: During the day, the temperature inside the cab can skyrocket due to solar gain. Even though it may be -30f outside, it can be well over 90 degrees inside the cab and we often drive in our underwear with the door open. No, we don't have air conditioners.

We are a large operational traverse hauling about 150,000 gallons of AN8 (kerosene based jet fuel) across Antarctica. We have two 50kw Cummings generators, one for redundancy, which only runs in the evening and at night. The power it produces is used for melting snow for water, heating our sleeping quarters (simple space heaters), and keeping our tractors warm. Each tractor is equipped with oil pan, block, glycol, transmission, and battery heaters.

The high altitude has little effect on our equipment although the tractors are less efficient and work harder to get oxygen. So do I. The cold temperatures are more of an issue- metal and plastic breaks easily in extreme cold weather. If it is 30 below outside and you get fuel on your skin- instant frostbite! Yikes!

Hope I answered your question,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Many thanks for getting back to me so quickly! And many thanks for permission to leave your photographs posted as is, with your copyright clearly stamped. I can well imagine why some unscrupulous people might try to sell them: they are terrific images. Really stunning.

Just a few more questions, if you have a bit of time to answer them?

These are rather specific questions, and if you are not one of the mechanics on the South Pole traverse (?), you might not know the answers. But thought I should ask the questions anyway, just in case you know some of the answers.... I still haven't read all of your blog pages about Antarctica, so if any of the questions below were already answered on your blog, my apologies in advance.

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1. Would you know the specific models of the Webasto and Espar AirTronic cab heaters, and Espar Hydronic heaters, used in vehicles on the South Pole traverse?

2. Are the heaters all fitted with special high-altitude kits? In the following pdf, which documents different Espar/Eberspracher high-altitude fixes, additional parts are required for all heaters with the sole exception of the Hydronic MII 10 and 12 -- see http://www.esparparts.com/techsupport/pdfs/High Altitude Kits/High altitude options 11-2012.pdf .

3. Are the 50 KW Cummins generators turbocharged? Any other special provisions? Do the Cummins generators have heaters attached as well?

4. Cummins diesel generators for Recreational Vehicles top out at 12 KW -- see http://power.cummins.com/onanpowerW...52&parentId=533&linkName=RV Diesel Generators . So presumably your Cummins 50 KW generators were originally designed for "Marine" or "Commercial Mobile" use? See http://power.cummins.com/onanpowerWeb/navigation.do?pageId=510&parentId=0&linkName=Applications ,http://power.cummins.com/onanpowerW...d=655&parentId=533&linkName=Marine Generators , http://power.cummins.com/onanpowerW...d=520&parentId=510&linkName=Commercial Mobile , and http://power.cummins.com/onanpowerW...d=659&parentId=533&linkName=Diesel Generators .

But the Commercial Mobile products seem to top out at 20 KW, so perhaps your generators were Cummins Marine products? Perhaps from the following series: http://power.cummins.com/onanpowerW...d=957&parentId=533&linkName=Marine Generators and http://power.cummins.com/PWON/Power...lsAndCompare/Common/pdf/specsheets/a-1470.pdf ? Or perhaps they were residential 50 KW units: http://powertohomes.com/Power-Connect-Series and https://powersuite.cummins.com/PS5/...t/pdf/Commercial/SparkIgnited/NAS-5793-EN.pdf ?

4. Would you know any of the makes and/or models of the heaters used for the "oil pan, block, glycol, transmission, and battery"?

5. When you say that the Cummins 50 KW generators kept your tractors warm, do you mean that they provided electric power for the various additional heaters attached to the "oil pan, block, glycol, transmission, and battery"?

6. The tractors are mostly Caterpillars, with Caterpillar engines, right? Turbocharged diesels? Would you know the specific makes and/or models of tractors used?

7. One of the tractors seems a bit special: it has a small cabin in back, and has a long boom in front fitted with ground-penetrating radar. Would you know the make and model of this tractor?

8. The living/sleeping quarters are heated by simple "space heaters", meaning base-board electric types, right? In other words, this: http://baseboard-heaters-review.toptenreviews.com/fahrenheat-review.html ; as opposed to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_heater ?

9. Would you know how the living/sleeping quarters are insulated?

10. What kinds of cooking appliances do you use inside the living/sleeping quarters? Are any of them LPG (propane)? Are all of them electric? Are some diesel, for instance, the stove?

11. Is the fridge an electric compressor type, or is it a gas-aboroption LPG fridge -- see ia.org/wiki/Refrigerator#Types_of_domestic_refrigerators ?

12. The reason I ask is because of the possible danger of carbon monoxide poisoning when using non-electric appliances in a very well-insulated and well-sealed compartment. I recently read on another Antarctic blog that the new Kress vehicle ("Clifford, the Big Red Truck") could not turn on its heater in the passenger cabin, because the cabin was too airtight, and carbon monoxide poisoning was a danger -- see http://blog.wonderfullyrich.net/2013/04/my-favorite-ice-movers-sometimes-shakers/ and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...EST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page10 . Do you know if this is true?

Any similar concerns regarding your living/sleeping quarters? Or have you gone deliberately "all-electric" to avoid such worries about carbon monoxide, and because you have two big 50 KW generators available?

13. Do you carry any LPG with you on the South Pole traverse? If so, for what purpose?

14. Do you carry oxygen tanks for medical reasons, just in case someone on the traverse comes down with a bad case of altitude sickness?

And finally,

15. How would you describe the South Pole traverse psychologically? If memory serves, in one of your blog-posts you mentioned "delirium". When a blizzard hits, and you're stuck inside for 3 or 4 days out on the ice plateau, it must get kinda weird and perhaps frightening? If you could summarize the experience overall, highs as well as lows, in just one paragraph.....?

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That's most of the questions that I can think of, in relation to the South Pole traverse. Again, if you can't answer many or even most of them, no worries. But if you are able to answer even just a few, that would be greatly appreciated.....

I also have a few more "tangential" questions. Again, please respond only if you feel you can.

1. Do you have any personal experience at high altitude with the Hagglunds BV206, the Foremost Nodwell, and/or the Foremost Centurion? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandvagn_206 and http://www.foremost.ca/products/tracked-units . These tracked vehicles seem to be popular for exploration in Antarctica. And if you do have any experience with them, any thoughts regarding their heating systems?

2. How do you feel about Ivan the Terrabus? In comparison to the new Kress vehicle, "Clifford, the Big Red Truck"?

3. Do you think a hybrid vehicle could handle the South Pole traverse? If so, what kind?

If you don't have much familiarity with or opinions about hybrids as alternatives to ICE vehicles, again, no worries. But if you do know a bit about hybrids and the various systems currently competing for market share, what hybrid solution do you think might work best in Antarctica's extreme-cold/high-altitude conditions?

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Hope that wasn't too many questions! Just wanted to say, again, that your blog is terrific, and your photos are stunning. And many thanks for letting me leave them posted on ExPo.

If you ever have some time to read the "Antarctica" posts on ExPo, and if it turns out that I've made a mistake or two, please feel free to correct me! Again, see pages 8, 9, and 10, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page8 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page9 , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...EST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page10 , post #80 onwards.

Last but not least, after our email correspondence about Antarctica is finished, would you mind if I were to repost it on ExPo, in the thread just referenced?

All best wishes,

Laurence (aka Biotect)

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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Hi Dave,

1. Just did another round of image-searching on google, and the long-boomed vehicle is the improbably named "Pisten Bully", right? See http://www.pistenbully.com/en.html and http://www.pistenbully.com/en/products/pistenbully-select.html ? But any additional information you might have about the cabin fitted in back, and/or the vehicle's heating, would be greatly appreciated.

2. Some of the other vehicles look like Tucker Sno-Cats, although this is not completely clear from the images: see http://www.sno-cat.com/1644-Sno-Cat.htmlor http://www.sno-cat.com/2000-300HP-Sno-Cat.html .

3. At least one of them seem to be a Case-Steiger Quad Track -- see http://www.caseih.com/en_us/Products/Tractors/Pages/steiger-quadtrac-4wd-tractors.aspx . Any reason this would be preferred to a Sno-Cat, or a Pisten Bully?

All best wishes,

Biotect

Hi Laurence [aka Biotect],

I shot an email to a couple of the traverse mechanics to answer some of the more technical questions about the Espar heaters. Right now they are headed down to Antarctica so should be out of contact for a bit. And I might have been wrong about the rating of the generators- I'll find out. I'll try to answer a few of the less technical questions.

5. When you say that the Cummins generators kept your tractors warm, do you mean that they provided electric power for the various additional heaters attached to the "oil pan, block, glycol, transmission, and battery"?

Yes. Similar to electric pad heaters which are used on vehicles in Alaska. I don't know the specific brands we use, I'll ask the mechanics.

6. The tractors are mostly Caterpillars, with Caterpillar engines, right? Turbocharged diesels? Would you know the specific makes and/or models of tractors used?

We have Case Quadtracs (various models), Cat MT865's- B and C series. Yes, turbocharged diesels, but instead of diesel we use AN8, which is also used by the aircraft and generators and has a very low temperature gel point.

7. One of the tractors seems a bit special: it has a small cabin in back, and has a long boom in front fitted with ground-penetrating radar. Would you know the make and model of this tractor?

Prinoth BR 350

8. The living/sleeping quarters are heated by simple "space heaters", meaning base-board electric types, right?

Not baseboard heaters- wall heaters similar to this one- Electric Wall Heaters: Fahrenheat 15-3/4 in. x 19-1/4 in. 3,000-Watt Wall Heater FZL3004

[See http://www.homedepot.com/p/Fahrenheat-3-000-Watt-Wall-Heater-FZL3004/100584612 ]

9. Would you know how the living/sleeping quarters are insulated?

Hmmm, the insulation isn't very thick- maybe blueboard but not sure. The modules were pre-made in the states by a trailer company called Shanco Camp Services LTD. One of the guys on the project to build them was named Doug Matheny. Perhaps you could google his name and find him for more info.

10. What kinds of cooking appliances do you use inside the living/sleeping quarters? Are any of them LPG (propane)? Are all of them electric? Are some diesel, for instance, the stove?

We have a propane oven/stove top- the same type used in trailers and boats that can swing to level. We have an electric heating pad/wrap around the propane cylinder to keep it warm and operational. It resides outside. We also have a commercial grade microwave which we use to cook almost everything. Our food is pre-made kiwi frozen TV dinners. Its pretty bad, I must admit.

11. Is the fridge an electric compressor type, or is it a gas-aboroption LPG fridge -- see ia.org/wiki/Refrigerator#Types_of_domestic_refrigerators ?

Its an electric fridge. When we travel the generator is off but the fridge stays cool enough.

12. The reason I ask is because of the possible danger of carbon monoxide poisoning when using non-electric appliances in a very well-insulated and well-sealed compartment. I recently read on another Antarctic blog that the new Kress vehicle ("Clifford, the Big Red Truck") could not turn on its heater in the passenger cabin, because the cabin was too airtight, and carbon monoxide poisoning was a danger -- see http://blog.wonderfullyrich.net/2013/04/my-favorite-ice-movers-sometimes-shakers/ and http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/121929-What-is-the-BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating/page10 . Do you know if this is true?

Yes, I heard this and have been a passenger on the Kress vehicle. I'm told there has been quite a few issues with the Kress but I actually like riding in it and don't mind that it's cold. We have to stand outside when we get to the runway anyway and I don't like putting on and taking off my gear over and over again. The biggest issue is that the vehicle is so long it has trouble making corners in town.

Any similar concerns regarding your living/sleeping quarters? Or have you gone deliberately "all-electric" to avoid such worries about carbon monoxide, and because you have two big 50 KW generator available?

Everything besides the stove is electric- it's easier to maintain. Each room also has an escape hatch in the roof that we can crack for fresh air if needed. When designing the new modules we put the Incinolet inside the same module as the kitchen. This was a mistake. In the morning all 10 people use the crapatorium and that thing gets FULL. When we shut the generator off the fan no longer pulls the poop smoke out the vent and the foul stench starts leaking into the kitchen area. That smell doesn't make eating fun. So now we have to crap in a plastic bag if we are within an hour of shutting off the generator. That's not fun either.

14. Do you carry oxygen tanks for medical reasons, just in case someone on the traverse comes down with a bad case of altitude sickness?

Yes, we have a full medical kit. We carry a variety of drugs to treat high altitude issues (Dexamethasone, Diamox). And we also bring a Gamow Bag, although we have never used it.

15. How would you describe the South Pole traverse psychologically? If memory serves, in one of your blog-posts you mentioned "delirium". When a blizzard hits, and you're stuck inside for 3 or 4 days out on the ice plateau, it must get kinda weird and perhaps frightening? If you could summarize the experience overall, highs as well as lows, in just one paragraph.....?

The South Pole Traverse is an amazing adventure but it is also very hard work. Crossing the Ross Ice Shelf could be compared to crossing an ocean, but instead of sail- we drive. At first its an exhilarating experience fueled by the the romantic ideas of reaching the South Pole and following in the steps of the explorers. But months away from loved ones combined with the grueling manual labor at extreme cold and altitude can really effect a persons moral. These types of experiences can really bond people together. But you can really learn to hate a person too.

1. Do you have any personal experience at high altitude with the Hagglunds BV206, the Foremost Nodwell, and/or the Foremost Centurion? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandvagn_206 and http://www.foremost.ca/products/tracked-units. These tracked vehicles seem to be popular for exploration in Antarctica. And if you do have any experience with them, any thoughts regarding their heating systems?

I have experience with the Hagglunds but not at altitude. They are good vehicles (used for McMurdo search and rescue) but I remember them being slow. I don't know anything about their heating system. I did like driving it on the sea ice because it floats. I don't have experience with the other two vehicles.

2. How do you feel about Ivan the Terrabus? In comparison to the new Kress vehicle, "Clifford, the Big Red Truck"?

Ivan is really old and always breaks down- its slow too and the seats are small when wearing all your gear. I like the Kress better. I heard they paid a fortune for it and that it was having engine issues. But that's all I know.

3. Do you think a hybrid vehicle could handle the South Pole traverse? If so, what kind?

When you say a 'hybrid' vehicle, do you mean a vehicle that runs on both electric and gas? Or something else? I'm not familiar with hybrids but I would be curious to see how well their batteries fair in the extreme cold.

Just did another round of image-searching on google, and the long-boomed vehicle is the improbably named "Pisten Bully", right? But any additional information you might have about the cabin fitted in back, and/or the vehicle's heating, would be greatly appreciated.

Originally the Traverse GPR vehicle was a Piston Bully- but we now have upgraded to the Prinoth BR 350. No heat in the back of the Prinoth.

2. Some of the other vehicles look like Tucker Sno-Cats, although this is not completely clear from the images:

The Greenland Inland Traverse (GRIT) uses a Tucker Snowcat for its lead GPR vehicle.

3. At least one of them seem to be a Case-Steiger Quad Track -- see Any reason this would be preferred to a Sno-Cat, or a Pisten Bully?

The Quadtrac is a large tractor made for pulling serious weight like fuel and cargo. Piston Bullies and Snowcats are made for grooming ski hills. We use them for GPR, transportation, and pushing snow.

Last but not least, after our email correspondence about Antarctica is finished, would you mind if I were to repost it on ExPo?

Sure no prob!

D~

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biotect · Aug 31, 2014

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Hi Dave,

Wow. Thank you!!! This is great information.

I've decided to start another new ExPo thread, dedicated to Arctic/Antarctic vehicles that have to deal with extreme cold and/or altitude. And will then repost my entries on pages 8, 9, and 10 of the "High Altitude Heating" thread there, after which this correspondence would follow.

When I came across Pisten Bully, turns out they have a new diesel-electric hybrid model: see http://www.pistenbully.com/en/products/pistenbully-600/e.html, http://www.pistenbully.com/en/products/pistenbully-600/e/engine.html , http://www.pistenbully.com/en/products/pistenbully-600/e/datasheet.html . But yes, it would be interesting to know how their batteries hold up in extreme cold.

All best wishes, and again, many thanks,

Laurence

Hi Dave,

Just a quick question. You mentioned that that you have an LPG stove. This was a bit surprising, because burning LPG creates carbon monoxide, and so too, not all of the LPG successfully burns. So campers fitted with LPG stoves need to have "drop down vents" for the LPG (LPG is heavier than air), as well as vents high up to allow any carbon monoxide to escape.

But you're in Antarctica, so vents would be a problem, yes? Was your living module vented? And if so, how did that "work" in combination with the electric heating? Did the electric heating blast so powerfully, that it didn't really matter if you had some holes in the box, open to the outside?

Also: why didn't those who designed/configured the living module, simply install an electric stove? Either an electric-ceramic stove, or an induction stove?

All best wishes,

Laurence

Hi Laurence [aka Biotect],

I have no idea why we have a propane stove- it seems weird even to me. But we do have windows and vents, so carbon monoxide poisoning is not an issue. We rarely ever use the stove - we microwave mostly everything. Opening a window while cooking isn't a problem unless their is a storm.

Insulation in the walls of the module is spray foam.

One of the traverse mechanics got back to me concerning your questions - he isn't at the moment in Antarctica. He says,

"I think the model of espar was MII 10 but idk about high altitude kits. I think the airtronic heaters were the smallest ones they make but I'm not sure. Spot 2 had 35 kW non turbo gensets, spot 1 has 60kw turbo charged ones. Neither set of gensets have pan heaters because they only work if the power is on.... As long as it's in an insulated room and started every night they usually stayed above 50° coolant temp. I suppose you could put espar heaters on the gensets incase they got cold."

I don't remember anything about the Webasto heaters. I think espar is better though.

I know its not the most thourough answer but that's what I got. Hope it helps.

D~

Hi Dave,

Interesting that you micro-waved everything!! But heh, if you had pre-prepared Kiwi TV-dinners, there would not be much point in cooking....

And thanks for the info from one of the traverse mechanics.

It's also interesting that the Incinolet toilet was so unpopular. I suspected as much, when I saw the photo on your blog. See the following videos, for a slightly crazed and/or humorous descriptions of the Incinolet -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhCmjulY5c8 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rS9p3yLhbQ , andhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nG98xFURrg . The narrator in the third video seems to be suffering from Incinolet-induced dementia.

As near as I can tell, Eco-John probably has the best solution, because it can combine "flush and forget" with incineration. Many participants on ExPo will sing the praises of composting toilets. But the problem with composting toilets is psychological and aesthetic: many people can't get their minds around the idea that they're basically sitting on a box of poop. We really do want the "flush and forget" experience. So a vacuum-flush Sealand toilet that uses very little water, combined with an Eco-John incinerator, seems the best solution -- see posts #448 to #451, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page45 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page46.

Finally: in addition to the Pisten Bully 600 e +, Prinoth also has a new hybrid snow groomer, the "Husky" e-motion -- see http://en.prinoth.com/Snow-groomers/Products/Snow-Groomers/HUSKY , http://en.prinoth.com/content/download/19331/638774/version/7/file/Husky_Eng_Low_Pdf.pdf , http://en.prinoth.com/content/downl...ion/14/file/Info+Folder+HUSKY+E-motion_EN.pdf , http://en.prinoth.com/Company/Environment ,http://www.trakkemaskin.no/default.asp?cid=1&nid=1628 , http://www.camese.org/news.cfm?itemid=9522 , http://www.seilbahn.net/sn/index.ph...nd innovative -the new PRINOTH Husky E-motion ,http://www.ideegreen.it/alto-adige-green-13821.html , and http://www.seilbahn.net/sn/index.php?i=62&news=3285&titel=Tilling Technology for World Champions . I don't know if it's powerful enough for Spot. But it is interesting that both Pisten Bully and Prinoth are now beginning to develop hybrid diesel-electric solutions.

All best wishes,

Laurence

Well, that's the correspondence so far. Dave is still waiting to hear back from some of the other traverse mechanics, so additional information may follow.

All best wishes,

Biotect

....

biotect · Sep 2, 2014

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Space reserved for additional correspondence with David Weimer, about the South Pole Traverse

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campo · Sep 6, 2014

Hi !
After having discussed with Biotect I will try to present here my expedition vehicle.

It's almost impossible to read this complete tread and get into the subject with you after your long experiences and reports.
But it is interesting for you to know that I can maybe give some answers on the questions that still might be open.
I know very well the Eberspächer/Espar, Webasto and other heater products.
Also the different altitude versions and their evolutions over the years.
I have done a lot of testing and decided to build my own RV truck.
It is rather new, took me almost 2 years, and equipped for very warm summers and extreme cold winters.

I can present it in some words.
It is a new MAN 13.290 BL 4x4 with the Euro5 EEV engine.
The box is 5,40 m including a motor bike garage. It was no problem for me to build a bigger RV, for almost no extra budget, but I wanted is compact, so I built smaller than the possible maximums.

It was built by myself and I calculated for use in environments up to -35°C to -40 °C in winter and +45°C in summer.

Insulation is sidewalls 40mm; roof and floor are 65mm, double insulated windows.
This was after my temperature calculations more than sufficient so why should I use thicker panels ?

The first thing I did after the planning and drawings where the warm and cold calculations in order to determine the needs at extreme and power needed the rest of the time. The problem was not to build heating and cooling systems for the extreme conditions.
But to build systems that can have extreme temperature environments sometimes… and are for the rest used only on idling speed. This is the real problem

As heaters systems I have installed on board (be prepared the list is quite long):
Eberspächer (=Espar) Hydronic II - D5 commercial 24V with the external electronic altitude compensation.
Eberspächer Airtronic D2 24V also with this altitude box.
In the driver cab I have the standard MAN Airtronic D4S
On the engine is a DEFA 230VAC 700Watt electrical heater.
On the Hydronic 5 there are calorifier 25 liters, 1 convector, 4 Helios 2000 blower heaters and 2 internal tank loops with a 3/2 regulation valve.
The valves to empty these tanks are heated with 24V heat wire.
Inside the 2 external tanks (grey and black water) is also an emergency 24V electrical heat system.
There is also an second small 6 litres calorifier that is only electric but 24V and 230V
The truck engine fuel is heated with a 300W Thermoline, the 2 fuel filter systems are also heated with 24V.
And the Eberspächer fuel lines are covered with 24V electrical heat wire.

Of course there is also some AC systems but that is not the subject here.

Regards Campo

The picture with the almost final result has been taken around the polar circle...this summer

This was the start

And the construction of the body

A lot of small drawings and calculations to find and determine the space for heaters and AC's

But also trying to find the best components, here the testing of different fresh air intakes

Positioning some of the AC and heating components life to find out that the drawing is
corresponding with the real sizes

Here you see the finalized main heater.
It is the Hydronic D5 fitted in the back box under the body

The grey and black water tanks ar heated with a warm coolant loop
picture was made in the construction phase

Small autoregulating 60Watt 24VDC heating elements are used
and there are some 24V heat wirings.

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