Camper Thermal Engineering for Extreme Cold & High-Altitude: Arctic Antarctica Tibet

[campo]

Heat pads are in test with 24VDC


Positioning the heater and airconditioning commands and controllers

The 230V engine heater is on the left side

Some technics are installed deep in the garage

The Airtronic diesel heater finds its position close to a 24V DC airconditioning

First AC testing at +49°C last summer

Taking some rest now !

 

[biotect]

Hi Campo,

Simply terrific description of your vehicle, and the systems that it uses to handle the challenge of extreme cold weather. Very much appreciated!! Welcome to ExPo, the "Expedition Portal", and many thanks for your efforts to communicate in English here.

For the longest time I have been wanting to ask an expert like you a simple question: What do you think about the possibility of an "all-electric" heating system, one that completely eliminates diesel heaters of the kind made by Eberspracher, Webasto, Truma, etc.?

Neverenough posted the following, about the electric radiant films/panels that he uses in his camper van:

To ditto an earlier comment, electric heating is not influenced by altitude. And having lived in Ecuador for several years above 10,000ft, not all high altitude environments are that cold. As long as you've got access to the amps, I like electric radiant film/panels. It's very simple, weighs almost nothing, and is maintenance-free. The setup in my camper works great down to about 20 degrees F. Colder than that I have to turn on the back-up forced-air propane unit to keep the inside temp at 70. And my camper is quite voluminous. I'm even considering adding more radiant film in the ceiling to increase the output. My next build will likely be all-electric for heating, cooking, cooling. A large PV array and access to two big gensets (camper generator and truck alternator), as well as shore-power access and easy to maintenance-free AGM batts has worked for me.

http://eastcoastradiantheat.com/rollnWarm.html

This is the product I used, but from a different distributor (http://www.warmup.com/us/electric-floor-heating-mats.phtml). I don't think WarmUp distributes the product anymore, which I believe is manufactured in Korea. There are a number of different "film" solutions available, as well as a number of thin "matts" that use wires instead of carbon film for resistance. It's important to do the math with electric radiant solutions and most have 10-15 watts/sqft. output. I have two "zones", each tied to a dedicated 20amp branch circuit (they're actually secondary loads via Automatic Load Shedding, ALS, circuits so demand loads, like the microwave, shut off the heat temporarily, which keeps the panel size down). In my case, each draws about 14 amps.

Another option, relatively new, are these, of which there are also several manufacturers and configurations. My next build will likely incorporate a mix of film and panels: http://ducoterra.com/radiant-panel-information/

I know about big (over 500kW) diesel standby generators because we have a few at our data center, but I'm not the guy to ask about smaller units. My camper uses a 3kW Onan gasoline unit. But my camper was designed to be removable and independent of the truck chassis, and I needed a storage tank for motorcycle fuel anyway, so I went with a gasoline generator so I could have a single fuel tank for the genset and motorcycles. As long as it's primed, it starts easily even in subfreezing and relatively high altitude situations (10,000ft).

See posts #6 and #8 in this thread at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...c-Travel-in-Extreme-Cold-amp-at-High-Altitude .

Ever since NeverEnough posted these messages about electric radiant films/panels, I have been wondering whether films/panels of this kind could be installed in a large motorhome such as yours? And whether they would prove sufficiently powerful to replace the need for a diesel heater (or heaters)?

The reason why this came up, is because diesel heaters have altitude limits. In order to get diesel heaters to work beyond their altitude limits, one needs to fit additional pumps that alter the diesel/air mixture. For a description of just a such a system, see post # 399 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page40 . In this system additional pumps are calibrated for 1500 m, 2500 m, and 3500 m. The German couple who created this multi-pump system for their MAN-KAT did so with the guidance and assistance of Ms. Gabriela S. and Dipl. Ing. Marcel S at Eberspracher -- see http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...us/fahrzeug-daten-technik/fahrer-haus-heizung .

It then seems much simpler to install an all-electric solution, because electric heating will not be affected by altitude.

As stated at the beginning of this thread the question of extreme altitude interests me very much, because on my own view, a truly "Round the World" ("RTW") motorhome should be able to cross the Tibetan plateau with ease. But the average height of the Tibetan plateau exceeds 4500 meters, and Tibet has drivable roads and passes as high as 18,000 feet, or approximately 5,500 m. Do you think that Eberspracher heaters could still function well at such extreme heights? And if not, what kind of "all electric" alternative solution do you think might work best?

Please do not feel any pressure to reply immediately. I first need a few days to read the "build" thread about your vehicle -- ich bin Deutsh-Kanadier, und kann französisch lessen.....:ylsmoke: I also need to finish up the transfer of posts and imagery from "High Altitude Heating" over to this thread; and I need to finish some posts on the "Fully Integrated Man or Tatra" thread. But even still, it would be terrific to hear your thoughts on the topic of "all-electric" heating, and radiant films/panels.

Bienvenue à ExPo, et votre participation ici sera grandement appréciée! :wavey:

À bientôt,


Biotect

 

[campo]

Hello Biotect

Thank you for your welcome!
I am sure that I can give you some extra information and my personal opinion on all these points that you mention.
But do not forget that I am here to learn something and to exchange information.
Myself I am specially focussing on the comfort needs, warm and cold, in what we call here in Europe
expedition trucks. That are big and heavy RV 4x4 vehicles mainly built on commercial MAN and Mercedes. going from European 7 to 20 tons of weight.
Most of them are not based on what you call a truck in the US and what is for us a pick up.
Be aware that we can have some linguistic or other communicative differences.


The idea is to travel further than others, with this heavy RV, as to do the tour of the world and live in the vehicle for longer periods.
As nobody likes staying very long in extreme cold or warm conditions, so this extreme climate use will be relatively short compared
to the average that will be tempered climates. The same is concerning high altitude.
On your pictures I see many vehicles that are built for use ONLY in snow and cold conditions.
The interior comfort there is really minimal and the heater solutions rather basic.
The drivers do not even take their coat off whilst driving !
I am doing something different. I want superior comfort in all conditions, including the extreme ones.
I had to find solutions for the heating, for the cooling and for keeping the machines working in these extreme conditions.


Where do we start?
To determine the calorific needs in my vehicle I did some research that I will first explain to you.


Afterwards we can discus more about the many other points that you mention as there are the choose between diesel, propane and electrical heaters.
Then there is the discussion point about heating on altitude, the possibilities and the problems.
Let's not mix all these points.


Campo

 

[biotect]

Hi Campo,

OK, great. It would be very interesting to know how you determined the calorific needs of your vehicle.

Also agreed, Americans tend to be not very familiar with European-style large expedition vehicles based on MAN or Mercedes truck chassis. Sure, in the United States there are a few Unimog-based campers, and a company like GXV tries to make a few larger campers similar to UniCat -- see http://globalxvehicles.com/vehicles/ . But no American company has a long history making very large 6x6 or 8x8 expedition motorhomes equivalent to the kind made by ActionMobil or UniCat in Europe -- see http://www.unicat.com/en/ and http://actionmobil.com/en/. Instead, American companies specialized in the expedition camper market tend to mostly create larger versions of the CBE "truck-camper" format -- see for instance http://earthroamer.com , http://www.tigervehicles.com , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_camper .

Furthermore, you might find that some Americans participating in forums like ExPo will feel that it is their positive duty to express criticism and hostility towards the larger expedition vehicles made in Europe. They will argue that larger vehicles -- especially 20-ton 6x6s -- are simply impractical from the point of view of geographic range, ability to handle smaller roads, mud tracks, etc. Others will argue that driving large expensive vehicles through Third World countries in Africa is unethical. For a very clear statement of this position, see http://www.magbaztravels.com/content/view/1440/324/. And for discussion, see http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/124725-The-Ethics-of-Third-World-Travel-by-Motorhome . There are lots of Americans in the latter discussion thread who are very quick to condemn the larger, UniCat and ActionMobil types of motorhome.

I am not American, and I do not share this point of view. My strong personal interest is the design of large, 6x6 expedition motorhomes.

Finally, very much agreed that many of the vehicles posted so far in this thread have been "buses" that merely ferry passengers from point A to point B. The Terrabus vehicles are excellent examples of those. And as you suggest, their heating solutions may not be very sophisticated. Or at least not as sophisticated as those required for a large expedition motorhome dedicated to Full-Timing.

However, it seems difficult to find detailed information on the web about technical solutions for larger, 6x6 campers designed to handle extreme cold. For instance, I've searched for more technical information about the Mongolian Zetroses posted at the very beginning of the thread -- see posts #9 - #13, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...el-in-Extreme-Cold-amp-at-High-Altitude/page1 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...el-in-Extreme-Cold-amp-at-High-Altitude/page2 . But I could find nothing.

So reading about your vehicle in detail will prove a godsend!

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[campo]

parameters for the calorific calculations

Hello

I decided to build a compact but heavy RV in 4x4. Not bigger than necessary for my purpose.
I call it compact, but you need the European big commercial driving license.

What are the calculation parameters ?

General description of the case:
The idea is that a hard working couple takes a year of to travel around the world.
They will do many countries and cross through Siberia in winter and the African Sahara in summer.
Probably they also cross Nepal mountains and south American countries with altitudes above 4000m but in the extreme parts where man have difficulties , there they will only stay for a couple of days.

The living unit dimensions are 5,4 long x 2,4 with x 2,0 meters high or 26m³ (17’ x 7’ x 6 Feet)

The global insulation is 40mm sidewalls and 60mm roof and floor.
Consider that with the garage and other furniture only a part of the habitable is in real contact with the outside. The 4 windows are double glass as 1 door and 3 hatches with thick boat plastic glass.

Ventilation needs
It is a 2 person RV but with driving and sleeping possibility for 3 so we need 3 x 50m³/hour fresh air to breath. In extreme conditions (very cold or warm outside we can reduce this. But no lower than 20m³/h per person or 60 m³/h in total.

What is the outside temperature in winter times?
The heater supplier Eberspächer says that it’s gasoil heaters will work down to -40°C (-40°F)
But we calculate as extreme with -30°C (-22°F) . If more heat power is available no problem.
The normal cold winter conditions will be like -10°C (+14°F)
AND 70 % of the time the heaters will have to work at ambient +5°C(+32°F)
Inside calculation temperature is chosen +22°C (+72°F)
We would like the system to cover all the range above mentioned.

Summer temperatures (same idea)
Extreme outside +45°C (113°F) cool down to interior +28°C (82°F)
Summer warm +28°C (82°F) cool down the interior to +24°C (75°F)
This last one is what the AC system will have to deliver in 70% of the time that it is wanted to function.

Let us now make the calorific calculations to determine the heater capacities.

Do you agree with this parameters as presented and are they +/- real world travelers life ?

 

[biotect]

Hi Campo,

Excellent, systematic beginning. Some points in response:


*************************************

Do you agree with this parameters as presented and are they +/- real world travelers life ?

A. It's hard to define what a "real world traveler" is like. Most people begin their travels by exploring in ever-larger concentric circles from where they first started. This is also true of overlanders.

So I suspect that most Americans overlanders start with Latin American adventures, and they only begin overlanding in Africa or Asia after they've seen most of Latin America. Whereas European overlanders usually begin with either African "Cape to Cairo" adventures, or they begin with Eurasian "Silk Road" adventures, Istanbul to Beijing. And only later do they see Latin America.

As such, I suspect that Tibetan altitude and Siberian temperatures are more of a concern for European overlanders, than they are for American overlanders. For most American overlanders, Tibet is a place that is very, very far away, both physically and psychologically. So Tibetan altitude is probably not a major design concern for most American overlanders. Whereas Tibetan altitude is a major design concern for me, perhaps because I am European? And perhaps because I've already spent considerable time in Tibet and Nepal?

However: A globally capable motorhome of the kind that I am imagining should be able to handle every continent except Antarctica. Sure, a custom-built motorhome can be tailored to meet the exact needs and stated geographic destinations of a single client. But a more "standardized" sort of globally capable motorhome, produced in limited production runs, and designed to "go anywhere", needs to factor in multiple possibilities on all continents except Antarctica.


*************************************

The idea is that a hard working couple takes a year of to travel around the world.

B. Personally speaking, I see myself as designing a RTW (round-the-world) motorhome for a couple that is full-timing for longer than a year. I am imagining them as a couple who are wealthy, but who retire early, in their early 60's. So their expedition motorhome needs to be designed for at least 5 years of comfortable traveling....

Peter Thompson, who built Mañana, a fully integrated expedition motorhome intended for traveling the "bad roads" of Australia, spent 11 years on the road with his wife in Mañana -- see http://www.thompsons.au.com/motorhome/ , and see the discussion at post #212, #214, and #215, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page22 .


*************************************

What is the outside temperature in winter times?

But we calculate as extreme with -30°C (-22°F) . If more heat power is available no problem.
The normal cold winter conditions will be like -10°C (+14°F)
AND 70 % of the time the heaters will have to work at ambient +5°C(+32°F)
Inside calculation temperature is chosen +22°C (+72°F)
We would like the system to cover all the range above mentioned.

Summer temperatures (same idea)

Extreme outside +45°C (113°F) cool down to interior +28°C (82°F)
Summer warm +28°C (82°F) cool down the interior to +24°C (75°F)
This last one is what the AC system will have to deliver in 70% of the time that it is wanted to function.

Let us now make the calorific calculations to determine the heater capacities.

C. I wonder a bit about your figures for "extreme cold" temperatures......

I grew up partly in Canada, and so I know just how cold a northern continental climate can become in the winter. In general most Europeans do not seem to "understand" extreme cold to the same extent that Canadians do. For instance, in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, the temperature can stay below −18 °C (0 °F) for weeks at a time without a break. And in Alberta, extreme temperatures as cold as −54 °C (−65 °F) are possible. − 30 °C is not considered "extreme".

Siberia is even colder: Siberia is the coldest place on earth outside Antarctica.

Average winter temperatures in Yakutsk, Siberia, are −39 °C (− 38 °F) , and average winter temperatures in Verhojansk are − 44 °C (− 47 °F) -- see http://traveltips.usatoday.com/climate-siberia-russia-63599.html . − 32 °C is considered a "mild" temperature in Siberia during the winter, not average, and certainly not extreme -- see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11875131 . In the article just linked, a miserable BBC correspondent traveling around Siberia during the winter at one point experienced a temperature of − 53 °C . Temperatures this low are almost inconceivable for most people. Except, that is, for Russians, Canadians, and Americans who work either in central Alaska or Antarctica.....:sombrero:

For an excellent YouTube playlist of videos that depict what winter is like in Yakutia, Siberia, see http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAA9891A535992FCE .

Furthermore, temperatures on the Tibetan plateau in the winter can drop as low as −40 °C (−40 °F).

So personally speaking, I see myself designing an RTW motorhome that can handle −40 °C (−40 °F) for many weeks, and extreme temperatures as low as − 55 °C (−67 °F) on occasion. Or perhaps even as low as − 60 °C (− 76 °F). The lowest temperature ever recorded in Siberia was -68° Celsius (-90° Fahrenheit ) -- see http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzsiberiacold.htm .

Now here's the thing: many parts of northern Canada and Siberia are actually more accessible in the winter-time, not less. During the summer months many Siberian "roads" turn into impassable muck. During the summer months many communities in Siberia become isolated islands, and travel between them is usually by helicopter. Whereas in the winter everything freezes over, and communities are better connected by the winter system of "ice roads".

The most famous "ice road" in Siberia is the M56 Kolyma Highway that connects Yakutsk with Magada, otherwise known as the "Road of Bones" -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M56_Kolyma_Highway , http://download.eyakutia.com/pdf/temp/kolymahighway_travelmap.pdf , http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...it-s-like-a-way-of-life-says-writer-1.2515737 , http://basementgeographer.com/road-of-bones-the-kolyma-highway/ , http://askyakutia.com/tag/road-of-bones/ , http://askyakutia.com/tag/kolyma-highway/ , http://askyakutia.com/2013/09/first...iberia-russia-middle-october-photos-pictures/ , http://askyakutia.com/2013/12/truck...ads-in-yakutsk-yakutia-siberia-russia-photos/ , and http://www.explorersweb.com/polar/news.php?url=on-the-siberias-road-of-bones-you-travel_137692557 :





[video=youtube;2z7OYo9PxA8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z7OYo9PxA8 [/video]
[video=youtube;GQowTCgd8d8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQowTCgd8d8&index=58&list=PLAA9891A535992F CE [/video]


Apparently the Russian government now maintains the Road of Bones year round, but it's the only all-weather road in the area. All of the other roads function only during the winter, because many of them cross rivers that (it is assumed) will be covered with thick ice in the winter. In the summer the same rivers become impassable, and they are not crossed by bridges.

So put it this way: either one's expedition motorhome is designed to handle extreme Siberian cold, or there will be lots of places in Siberia where one's expedition motorhome will simply never go.

For first-hand information about what it's like to travel with an expedition motorhome in Siberia, by an American couple who travelled the Road of Bones in a Truck-Camper in the middle of winter, see http://turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle-iv/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/introduction-2/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-1/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-2/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-3/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-4/ , http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-5/ , and http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/russia/russia-update-6/ .

As for summer heating, that's another matter. I haven't researched summer temperatures in the Sahara yet, so I can't comment on that.


*************************************

The global insulation is 40mm sidewalls and 60mm roof and floor.

D. I also wonder about the thickness of the walls that you've specified. The Mongolian Zetroses described at the beginning of this thread were designed for Ulan-Bator's Sub-Arctic climate, and have 5 cm thick walls, and 10 cm thick floors and ceilings -- see http://www.examiner.com/article/h-nerkopf-neukirchen-sends-two-zetros-expedition-rv-s-to-mongolia , and see posts #9 to #13 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...el-in-Extreme-Cold-amp-at-High-Altitude/page1 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...el-in-Extreme-Cold-amp-at-High-Altitude/page2 .

Most UniCats also seem to have walls 6 cm thick. On Unicat's website, the wall-thickness and insulation rating of most vehicles usually reads as follows:

• Wall thickness 60 mm (2.36") with polyurethane foam insulation, 3 mm (0.12") FRP outer surface, 2 mm (0.08") FRP inner surface, insulation rating 0.44 W/m[SUP]2[/SUP] K (0.078 Btu/ft[SUP]2[/SUP] hr °F)

See http://www.unicat.com/en/individual.php , and see for instance http://www.unicat.com/en/info/MD83h-MANTGS6x6.php , http://www.unicat.com/en/info/MD58hvfamily-MBZetros18334x4.php , and http://www.unicat.com/en/info/EX46-MANM4x4.php.


*************************************


These are only questions, not criticisms. For instance, I was merely wondering whether 4 cm thick walls will prove compatible with one of your stated goals, namely, "crossing through Siberia in winter". Do you think 4 cm thick walls will be thick enough to handle Siberian winter temperatures, as described above?

And if so, why?

But again, many thanks for this very clear statement of design parameters.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[optimusprime]

These are only questions, not criticisms. For instance, I was merely wondering whether 4 cm thick walls will prove compatible with one of your stated goals, namely, "crossing through Siberia in winter". Do you think 4 cm thick walls will be thick enough to handle Siberian winter temperatures, as described above?



Biotect

Would that depend on the material being used for the insulation and how it's constructed?
We get sheets of Cold Store insulation material in at work from construction sites ( I work in recycling,skip truck driver, we have massive food industry here,and cold stores proliferate)
It ranges from 50mm thick up to about 150mm thick.... ( I was going to appropriate some for my workshop I'm wanting to build .......)

 

[campo]

@ Biotect
Thank you for your remarks.
That’s a lot of information and can become extra input for my calculations.
The “couple” is around 60 and can afford to buy/built a heavy expedition RV vehicle.
The countries that they are going to visit, over a period that is “considerably more” than 1 year,
are more extreme than in my proposals. So we include 3 weeks autonomy instead of “some days” in severe conditions. We will not focus on Asia, Siberia, Latin America in special but take the universal world tour as standard but including exceptionally cold and warm countries.
Really above average but for maximum periods of 3 weeks. Because it are travellers.
RTW is Round The World Tour. OK thanks for the right words.
Let’s go from my proposal that was -30°C (-22°F) down to -40°C (-40°F)Lower temperatures is really not possible for older European or American travellers that are not used to that sort of environments. So we exclude the coldest places on earth. It will not be a cold competition vehicle.

The thickness of the walls and insulation:
Yeah your right 40mm for the walls and 60mm floor/roof is not that thick, I agree.
But let’s look at the impact first. Thicker walls or more heater capacity, what about the 70% of the time that we do not need it at all?
I worked a lot with 100mm walls on transport refrigeration vehicles. It is like a massive Swiss safe to open a door like that, with the rubbers almost impossible. Not comfortable. My wife can only open tiny doors…she is not that strong. Let’s not copy Unicat’s or others ideas, maybe they sell uncomfortable refrigeration truck’s. We will build a comfortable RV that can do extreme expeditions and just go to the beach also.

@ Optimusprime
If my ”tiny” 40mm walls choice is not good enough, than we can compensate this problem with more heater capacity. We will have the advantage that we will not have to carry 100mm walls for the rest of the year where we will really not need it. It is a multi-purpose vehicle that has to be pleasant to use.
The impact of “double walls” (furniture, garage, boxes) makes that there is less than 50% of the living compartment in contact with the exterior. In the calculation the total insulation can be better than only the exterior peel.
In my house I would also use thick walls that are more than 1 feet but not in an RV.

 

[biotect]

Hi Campo,

Excellent replies. Agreed, there is no point creating super-thick walls that are only needed for less than 10 % of the journey. After all, when crossing Siberia in winter one could simply dress more warmly with a few more layers, even when driving and living inside the vehicle. It's amazing the difference that an extra layer of long underwear makes. And at night, one could sleep under a thick eider-down duvet.

It will also be interesting to see how you will compensate for thinner walls with extra heater capacity. That's an interesting and beautifully simple idea: simply add the extra heater required when traveling in extreme conditions.

Looking forward to the next installment!

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[campo]

Hereby the first results of my calorific calculations for outside temperature -30°C (-22F):
Calorific losses through the walls: 44 W/°K
Calorific losses through the window double glass 4 W/°K
Calorific losses trough the doors and cold bridges 2 W/°K
Calorific losses through the hatches: 4 W/°K
In total (W/°K) 54


I will not be able to answer because I am travelling with the RV for some days
but I come back to you !

 

[Gatsma]

This is a VERY interesting thread! Very enjoyable AND educational! And Biotect, you are right about SOME Americans being critical of the larger expedition vehicles, but they are a distinct, but unfortunately extremely vocal, minority. I think some of them are actually jealous, and since they can't either afford or justify one, nobody else should have one either. I really can't afford one of the larger machines either, but more power to those who can! I figure that if, while traveling anywhere in the world, one does not infringe on somebody's rights or privacy, nor destroys or defaces property, intentionally or otherwise, they should be allowed to roam at will. To see the world first-hand is the best educational experience one can have. So don't let a few so-called "greenies" with big mouths (or keyboards) slow you down. I sure don't!
Cheers to all!

 

[campo]

Hi Gatsma

Of course we have also in Europe some critical voices about big expedition trucks.
We mean than more heavy than long vehicles and for more adventurous destinations.
The climate conditions will there be more extreme, so the vehicles need to be adapted.
The group of people building their own RV expedition vehicle is growing.
Traveling with a expedition vehicle, small or big, is more a way of life.
It can be more expensive but a lot of people are really doing it low budget.
Many thousands off people are now travelling around the world, and taking it differently than the mass tourism.
The standard RV's come out of mass production plants and are not made for extreme conditions.
that’s why their price is more economical. The have small water tanks, small heaters, almost no Air-conditioning, and very small batteries.
On the Biotect's pictures you see a lot of very extreme vehicles made for only one situation: the extreme cold one.
The expedition RV Trucks need/want a lot more comfort in both cold and warm conditions.

The first calorific calculations concern heat losses through the outer skin.
But there are more losses.
I will show you.

regards Campo

 

[Gatsma]

Thank you so much Campo! Between you and Biotect, I stand to learn a lot about thermal engineering in expedition vehicles.
Again, thank you!

 

[biotect]

.

Thank you so much Campo! Between you and Biotect, I stand to learn a lot about thermal engineering in expedition vehicles.

Again, thank you!

Greetings Gatsma,

Many thanks for your kind words and enthusiasm.

But I am just a designer. Campo is the expert with the background in engineering! We will both learn a huge amount from him..... ....We are very lucky to have someone like Campo participating in the thread, someone with so much engineering expertise as well as practical experience.

Campo: very much agreed, this thread so far has been about extreme cold. I pitched it that way in order to "tie in" the question of extreme high altitude, which usually entails cold weather.

Furthermore, I get the feeling that most expedition motorhomes designed by ActionMobil, UniCat, etc., already take into account extreme heat in desert climates. Both ActionMobil and UniCat have created many vehicles intended for use in Arabic and Saharan countries, with massive air-conditioning systems designed to handle extreme heat. Indeed, one can find find some detailed specifications for these air-conditioning systems in the vehicle-descriptions available on UniCat's website. Whereas it seems harder to find expedition motorhomes designed specifically for extreme Canadian and Siberian cold, and/or extreme Tibetan altitude.

In short, there is almost nothing available on-line that describes in detail the technology that a large expedition motorhome might use to handle truly extreme cold and/or extreme high altitude. Extreme cold and high altitude seem to be more "exotic" and unusual subjects, at least in the world of expedition motorhome design. So it seemed useful to have a thread that addresses these somewhat unusual subjects.....?

Even still, as you know, I am very interested in your calculations for hot Saharan climates as well. Any and all of your suggestions regarding air-conditioning will be most welcome indeed. Indeed, any and all contributions from others about thermal engineering for extreme heat in the Sahara will be greatly appreciated as well.

Perhaps this thread should be given a more general title, something like:

"The Thermal Engineering of Vehicles & Campers for Extreme Climates & High Altitude"

A thread title like this would cover both extreme heat and extreme cold. But I wanted to include "Arctic / Antarctic Travel" in the thread title, because travel in the Canadian and Russian Arctic during the winter is the extreme application that will "push" the engineering parameters. Including "Arctic / Antarctic Travel" in the thread's title also feeds Google's search-engine in the right way, so that those interested in thermal engineering for Arctic / Antarctic climates will be able to find the thread easily.

ExPo thread titles have a word-limit, and the current title just barely fits that word-limit:

"Vehicles & Campers for Arctic / Antarctic Travel in Extreme Cold & at High Altitude"

So it's difficult to see how I could include "Arctic / Antarctic" in the thread title, alongside "Thermal Engineering". An ideal title that includes all the best "buzz words" for Google's search engine, would perhaps run something like the following:

"The Thermal Engineering of Expedition Vehicles & Campers for Arctic / Antarctic and Saharan Travel, in Extreme Climates & at High Altitude"

But that's way too long. It's barely legible, and will not fit ExPo's title-length limit.

One final thought: it does seem important to have the phrase "Thermal Engineering" in the thread-title, because "Thermal Engineering" for extreme climates and high altitude perfectly summarizes what this thread should be about. "Thermal Engineering" is a suitably broad phrase, covering both mechanical heating and cooling, as well as overall design, insulation, wall thickness, etc. Many thanks for the phrase, Gatsma. But most people first thinking about this subject and typing search-terms into Google, probably would not type "Camper + Thermal Engineering", unless they themselves have backgrounds in engineering. Instead, most people are more likely to type "Camper + Extreme Cold", or "Expedition Vehicle + Extreme Heat".

Let me mull it over. It's still early days in the thread, and if I change the title, this would be an excellent time to do so. Needless to say any suggestions for a title change that's short enough to fit, and that captures all the above considerations, would be most welcome.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[biotect]

Hi Campo, Gatsma,

Over the last few days I've experimented with multiple thread-title combinations trying to incorporate the idea of extreme heat and the Sahara, as well as "Thermal Engineering". But soon realized that if I were to do so, I'd have to completely re-write the first 5 or 6 posts of the thread, which concentrate on Antarctic/Arctic extreme cold, and not Saharan heat.

There is also the argument, as just suggested, that most larger expedition vehicles are already well-designed to handle extreme heat well, because so many owners either live in north-African and middle-Eastern countries, or because they are Europeans who want to explore and/or cross the same. UniCat, for instance, seems to have a service depot specifically set up in Dubai:


... ...


See http://www.unicat.com/pdf/UNICAT-News-2010-01-HI-en.pdf and www.unicat.com/pdf/UNICAT-News-2010-02-HI-en.pdf .

However, I did change the thread-title somewhat, eliminating the words "vehicles" and "travel" (which were a bit redundant), and adding "Thermal Engineering" and "Tibet" (which are far more important). It's still early days, so this is a good time to change to the title, before the thread gets too big.

But again, design for the extreme heat of the Sahara is perfectly acceptable as a sub-tpic in a thread like this, especially now that the thread-title incorporates the broader phrase, "Thermal Engineering". Again, thanks for that phrase, Gatsma. The title is now much clearer and has a good focus.

All best wishes,


Biotect