Car Purchase with eye towards first child

[BIGdaddy]

You do if you take extended trips.

I guess that depends on how long you spend in the car at a time. No matter how long the trip, during the day we stop every two hours or so. At night, when they're sleeping, we just push through.

Every family's different, though. 'burbs are a good option for some.

:ylsmoke:

 

[Pskhaat]

...just talking about storage for like a 5-6 week outing

 

[BIGdaddy]

...just talking about storage for like a 5-6 week outing

ahh, I see. 10-4.

 

[Martinjmpr]

That being said, the short list so far (looking in the $12k range). Consider 2003-2007 models of the following, though any additional suggestions are much appreciated. REALLY looking forward to something more reliable.

• Suzuki Grand Vitara. Decent economy, great transferable warranty, and 4Lo option (though rear storage sucks)
• 4runner, this seems like a good pick, as long as I avoid ones with sunroofs (loose 2" headroom). Vintage we're looking at is
  probably a bit beyond our budget =(.
• RAV4 V6, great economy, ok boot space, but seems limited when it comes to offroad duty, and we know some people who've had problems with theirs.
• Jeep Patriot. FDII models seems hard to find used, and there are questions about reliability
• Outback/Forester. Seemed great for front legroom, and fuel economy is definitely good. Like the high safety ratings, but have heard reliability has taken a hit recently. Lots of complaints about fitting a rear facing car seat make me less than enthusiastic about this. Also, ground clearance is meh.

Thoughts and suggestions greatly appreciated.

Well, I can't speak to all your choices, but my wife has had a 2006 Grand Vitara (the first year of the "new" body style") and since I normally drive when we're together, I feel like I can speak with some authority on it.

Overall, it's a good vehicle, and she likes it. Downsides? Yes, a few.

* First off, don't even think about 20mpg. 16 is more like it, at least in the city, which is mostly how we drive (long trips we normally take my 4runner because it's quite a bit bigger.) I think we've taken a couple of long trips in the GV but I don't believe it's ever broken 20mpg. Maybe gotten as high as 19.5 but that's a stretch. For a vehicle as small as this one, that's a real disappointment, especially since it's got a 5 speed auto which should, in theory, offer better MPG. My ancient (1999) 4runner with a bigger engine and a 4 speed auto actually gets slightly better mileage on the highway. Of course, all 2006 + 4x4 GV's are full-time 4wd so that is probably a big part of the MPG equation - my 4runner has conventional 4wd so I'm in 2wd most of the time.

* Combined with the poor MPG is a gas tank that IMO is too small. I don't know what the size is (you can look it up, I'm too lazy) but I can tell you that in the city she is usually hitting the 1/4 mark at around 180 - 220 miles. I don't think I've ever put more than 13 gallons in the tank, so I'm guessing the fuel tank is ~ 15 gallons or less. Combined with the max of 18mpg on the highway that means your best case scenario is 270 miles to an empty tank.

* It's also noisy. No noisier than my 4runner or my Tacoma, but consider that my 4runner is 7 years older than the GV.

* Storage is minimal, as you well know. You do get a bit of a benefit from having the spare tire outside, but of course the downside of that is a side-opening tailgate that makes it more difficult to load large or bulky cargo.

* Speaking of poor storage, the back seats are "fold and flip" designs that use up way too much cargo room in an already small vehicle. By contrast my 4runner has seat bottoms that flip forward and then the seat back flips down to make for a much larger cargo area.

* Rear visibility is also very, very poor. Between the windows that "shrink" as you go further back and the big spare tire that makes your blind spot bigger, it's not a fun vehicle to back up in. In fact, the wife actually parks head-in in our garage, and one of my daily "chores" is that every morning before I go to work I back her truck out of the garage and put it in the driveway so she doesn't have to (from years in the military, I'm very used to backing vehicles and my 4runner parks backed-in in the garage.)

Okay, that's the downside. Now the pluses:

* It really is fun to drive. Peppy 2.7l V-6, full-time 4wd and a 5 speed auto make for a very "zippy" vehicle. I've actually never taken it on a high speed run down a dirt road but if it's anything like my AWD Subaru it should be a hoot to drive. 4 wheel independent suspension (which is a detriment in hardcore off-roading) is actually a benefit here. Steering is precise and body roll is negligible.

* Small size makes it easy to drive and park in the city.

* For a budget vehicle it's got a lot of nice features like a 6 disc CD changer in the dash that is MP3 capable and XM ready, steering wheel controls for the stereo and the cruise control, automatic climate control, rear seats that recline slightly, defrosters for the mirror and lots of little storage bins everywhere.

* Warranty coverage is pretty good - I think it's 7 years/100k on the drivetrain and AFAIK that's fully tranferable.

Overally she's very happy with it. It's the perfect "urban commando" vehicle for our unpredictible weather. In fact, she got caught in a sudden blizzard back in March and even though her rear tires were terribly worn (an issue you have to watch for since this truck has IRS) she was able to glide through the heavy snow and ice with no problems while other vehicles were spinning out.

As far as being kid-friendly, we've transported her now 7 year old grandson in this vehicle for the past 2 years and it's worked fine. The reclining rear seats help in this task, I think.

(to be continued)

 

[Martinjmpr]

(continued from previous post)

Your other choices: If you want to stay under $12k and you need 4wd, you're going to have difficulty finding anything with a "T" emblem that doesn't have high miles. The 4th gen 4runners (2003 - 2009) may be found in that range but the earlier V-6 models only had 4 speed automatics (they got 5 speeds in 2005 or 2006) and the V-8 models are full-time 4wd which doesn't make for good MPG. Also any 4th gen 4runner you find for $12k is likely to have over 100k on the odometer. Not a big deal IMO (my 3rd gen 4runner had 117k on it when I bought it last year) but it may be a concern.

3rd gen 4runners (1996-2002) can be found in your price range (I paid $7999 for mine last year) but understand you'll be getting an older vehicle that likely has over 100k on the clock. Also MPG is somewhat disappointing - I get 14 - 17 in the city and 18 -20 on the highway, max (that's with an automatic.) You can probably find a nice 2001 or 2002 4runner for right around $12k and it may even have less than 100k on it (I've seen that.) However, some of the 2001 - 2002 models have been having transmission problems and that can get expensive on an out-of-warranty vehicle. On the plus side, all 2001 - 2002 4runners have a very cool multi-mode transfer case that allows you to run in either 2wd, full-time 4wd with a center differential, or conventional 4wd with the center diff locked. The 3rd generations are smaller than the 4th and 5th gens, but they are amazingly capable off road. 1999 and 2000 Limited models often came with both the multi-mode T-case and a locking rear differential - the only 4runners that have ever been available from the factory with that combo (except for the 2009 Trail Edition which was only made in small numbers.)

As for the Rav4, remember that the newer, bigger Rav4 with the V-6 option didn't come out until 2007, so anything from 2006 - earlier is the smaller body style. I don't know what the market's like in your neck of the woods but around here you can't touch a 2007+ Rav 4 4wd for less than about $15k and even that would be stretching it.

However, a bigger vehicle with Toyota reliability is available: The Highlander. Because the Highlander was introduced in 2001 you may be able to find one in your price range. The Highlander IMO sort of looks like a minivan trying to be an SUV but if you have kids, that's a plus, not a minus.

Other vehicles you might consider are the Hyundai Santa Fe and the Mitsubishi Endeavor and Outlander. There are concerns about whether Mitsubishi could be leaving the US market, so that may be a concern, but the Koreans are here to stay, so that may be a safer bet.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Update

Actually, the more I look at it, the better the Highlander looks. I was able to find several on CL with under 100k for $9k - $11.5k, which would be right in your price range. You can find AWD models that have a 4 cyl engine that gives you your 20mpg, but most of the ones you find will be V-6's that get ~18/20 which is still better than you'll get with any body-on-frame 4wd.

From an off-road perspective, the biggest downside to the Highlander is that AFAIK you can't lock the center diff like you can on some CUVs. However, if you think of it as basically a minivan with regular doors (which is really what it is) then it looks pretty good.

Honestly, if I didn't live in CO and didn't drive on actual 4wd trails, I'd seriously consider a Highlander as my daily driver. With kids, especially, I think it makes sense.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

* First off, don't even think about 20mpg. 16 is more like it, at least in the city, which is mostly how we drive (long trips we normally take my 4runner because it's quite a bit bigger.) I think we've taken a couple of long trips in the GV but I don't believe it's ever broken 20mpg. Maybe gotten as high as 19.5 but that's a stretch. For a vehicle as small as this one, that's a real disappointment, especially since it's got a 5 speed auto which should, in theory, offer better MPG. My ancient (1999) 4runner with a bigger engine and a 4 speed auto actually gets slightly better mileage on the highway. Of course, all 2006 + 4x4 GV's are full-time 4wd so that is probably a big part of the MPG equation - my 4runner has conventional 4wd so I'm in 2wd most of the time.

Holy crap! Really? That's little better than what I get in my Land Rover, and everybody is always talking about how "bad" *they* are. Used to get 16-18 stock, now about 14-16, though I can still see 18 if I really try.

You must not live in THAT snowy of an area. We have a Subaru outback, a Toyota Camry and of course my XJ. There have been times where my wife couldn't get the Outback...with AWD out of our driveway in the winter. The Camry? Please, don't make me laugh. During hard winter storms it stays parked and we deal with the Subi and the Jeep. front wheel drive cars are just not an option then. Granted it isn't an every day or usually even a once a month experience but it happens and I am very grateful that my wife has the option of an AWD vehicle. I wouldn't want her out on the roads in anything less.

Well, it's all a matter of perspective I guess.

Up in Barrie, a good snowfall would drop about 12" per 24 hours. We were never immobilized with FWD vehicles, mostly due to effective plowing. If your roads aren't plowed... well yeah, it'll be hard. I don't think I've ever seen more than 6" of snow on the roads, which an FWD car can do. 4" is common (build up between rounds of plowing) and that's hardly enough to slow a FWD car with snow tires.

More importantly, and the reason I used the word "wintry" instead of snowy, is ice. I learned to drive in Montreal, which is very icy. Hell, I used to ice race, won the local championship in 99 with a FWD car, with the Blizzaks putting down the same time as AWD cars with lesser tires.

Hills? It was a 20% ice covered hill that I made it up on the rally, passing AWD cars on the way. Of course, that was a VW Fox, with 70% weight on the front wheels and curb weight of only 2200lbs, so it's not like a normal FWD car. But still.

My point is, I live in Canada. Not Toronto or Vancouver, we actually get winter here, and I've NEVER wanted for AWD/4WD to get around. Yet tons of people I know in the same areas thing they need it, yet leave their SUV's parked as soon as the storms hit.

 

[brngk]

Holy Cow, that is an impressive response. I really appreciate it, so very good points being made. I especially like the XJ/WJ suggestion, seems I can get one with reasonable miles on it for under 10K and save the rest for adventuring. My neighbor down the street owns an XJ, so I'll give it whirl. Thanks again for all the suggestions. Hopefully I'll be able to follow this up with a new ride soon.