Choosing my first overland vehicle
- Thread starter phobucket
- Start date
Actually, yes. Look at what I wrote.
Supplier quality control is the responsibility of the vehicle manufacturer, in this case Toyota. Each lot of product is tested and certified to be in compliance with the manufacturer's specifications. DANA process and Toyota QA failed in this case.
First, the ferrous metal (steel) alloy is specified for metallurgy that includes carbon, nickel and chromium. This provides strength and corrosion resistance. Toyota then selects a manufacturer who submits what the industry calls "first articles" that then go through a quality assurance process of inspection and testing. Toyota then signs off on material and process, that it meets their specifications. During actual production each lot should include a sample of that steel which is then sent to a lab to confirm that the lot meets Toyota's specification. Both DANA and Toyota experienced a breakdown of process that resulted in the frame corrosion/rust issue. Toyota QA should have known they had issues from testing of samples provided by DANA. This is before the vehicle leaves the plant.
The 70's were known as the rust bucket era. Manufacturers paid little attention to corrosion prevention (both alloy and vehicle design) and the consumer noticed. American Motors was the first to actually invest in this area. It is also common knowledge that the first Japanese cars/trucks were complete junk. They would rust sitting in the garage if the humidity was high enough. In high corrosion environments I doubt you will find a 70's/early 80's Toyota truck that doesn't look like a close formation of rust panels held together by paint. Japanese manufacturers felt the wrath of the consumer and responded in the late 80's. Sometimes they forget their painful lessons - recent Toyota frame rust issues.
Land Cruisers are great trucks. They survive because of their design. This discussion is about considerations for first overland vehicle. Pointing out that some models have significant frame rust issues is relevant. Similar to pointing out that Land Rovers use of a Buick engine for decades became an issue as tooling wore out and the design simply became just 'old'.
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There are no such thing as a prefect car that has no drawbacks or error.
Earlier land rovers and discovery as 1, 2 serie and also first gear on the discovery 3 had some issues. I believe that both discovery 3:s, 4:s and land cruiser are among the best 4wd (Tourer if you want) in the world.
The lc 100 is one of the best 4wd ever made and the erlier series are awsome to. After the 100 serie i think the land rover made a better car with the discovery 3. Better engine, better 4wd system, a really good transmission more modern, and reliable.
The discovery 3 are a reliable 4wd and the owner of them discuss if something is wrong and don't hide anything. You can find fault and fixes om forums. Toyota lives on it's reputation on being without faults and that is not the case.
Discovery 3 had problem with the air compressor which put the down to the bumpstops and after changing it got better. Same with the egr.
I really like the discovery 3 and it's a really good Tourer. You need to try them both but my personal opinion is that discovery 3 has more goodies that I like.
Earlier land rovers and discovery as 1, 2 serie and also first gear on the discovery 3 had some issues. I believe that both discovery 3:s, 4:s and land cruiser are among the best 4wd (Tourer if you want) in the world.
The lc 100 is one of the best 4wd ever made and the erlier series are awsome to. After the 100 serie i think the land rover made a better car with the discovery 3. Better engine, better 4wd system, a really good transmission more modern, and reliable.
The discovery 3 are a reliable 4wd and the owner of them discuss if something is wrong and don't hide anything. You can find fault and fixes om forums. Toyota lives on it's reputation on being without faults and that is not the case.
Discovery 3 had problem with the air compressor which put the down to the bumpstops and after changing it got better. Same with the egr.
I really like the discovery 3 and it's a really good Tourer. You need to try them both but my personal opinion is that discovery 3 has more goodies that I like.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
It seems that many of those that talk about early, premature or constant maintenance on Land Rovers (LR3s especially) have not owned them or driven them off road much.
Those that actually own, and use, Land Rovers mention the same exact things, however the harshness of the conversation is significantly lessened and takes on "it takes work to keep nice things nice" tone.
To me, the conclusion is simple. There is something about a Land Rover that grabs you - something that makes seemingly big issues not seem so big. Especially if your already a vehicle enthusiast.
Caveat..I've never owned a Toyota (or Ford, or Nissan, etc) 4x4. I've had Toyota *CARS* that were so bland, uninteresting, and uninvolving to drive that even simple breakdowns and maintenance seemed like a bad thing....because any problem was taking away the ONLY good or appealing thing about the car.
It seems that many of those that talk about early, premature or constant maintenance on Land Rovers (LR3s especially) have not owned them or driven them off road much.
Those that actually own, and use, Land Rovers mention the same exact things, however the harshness of the conversation is significantly lessened and takes on "it takes work to keep nice things nice" tone.
To me, the conclusion is simple. There is something about a Land Rover that grabs you - something that makes seemingly big issues not seem so big. Especially if your already a vehicle enthusiast.
Caveat..I've never owned a Toyota (or Ford, or Nissan, etc) 4x4. I've had Toyota *CARS* that were so bland, uninteresting, and uninvolving to drive that even simple breakdowns and maintenance seemed like a bad thing....because any problem was taking away the ONLY good or appealing thing about the car.
phobucket
Observer
I've located a 2008 B8 4runner, a 2006 LR3 with low miles (though I would prefer a newer year), and a 2004 Land Cruiser. Going to test them all this weekend. 2007-2009 LR3s seem hard to come by in NorCal, though they are plentiful in SoCal. The Lexuseses look great from a feature standpoint, but the interiors are a little overdone for my tastes. I had considered the FJ Cruiser, but after having lived with the Clubman, which also has a suicide door, I want real doors for the rear seats. I'll update the thread after my test drives.
Yup, you nailed it. If the feature you want fails, then you are not a happy camper. Each person is different. For me it was command seating position, narrow pillars, excellent view of trail ahead, lots of glass, heavy, V8, all around excellent choice for city, rural, family, off-road, .... multi-purpose on many fronts.
So have we arrived at ......... ?
Top Gear - Bolivia
phobucket
Observer
Today I checked out a 2006 v8 4runner, a Land cruiser, a 2006 LR3 and a 2004 disco, a red 2006 supercharged RR, and a 1999 disco.
The 4 runner was in great shape, but was inside the showroom, so I didn't drive it. It did pass the sleeping in the back test. Had a nice nap before the dealer kicked me out
The 2006 LR3 and 2004 disco Were both at the same dealer and had interiors that were really ratty. In addition, the LR3 had malfunctioning or more likely disconnected air suspension. They were really in sad shape. The red Range Rover was in really good shape, but too nice to take camping. The Land Cruiser was also in good Condition other than a scuff on the bumper , but it felt a little too big to drive around the city.
That brings me to the 1999 Disco. Good lord was that truck cool!! It felt like a blast from the past, but also felt really solid, driving it felt like an adventure. It had 158k miles, worn tires with two leaks, and the 3 amigos. Also the driver's door lock was malfunctioning and the key was held together with tape. On the positive side, the engine ran great and a lot of work had clearly been done to it in the recent past. Also the only place I could see rust was on the headers and exhaust . The dealer said he was waiting on parts to fix the 3 amigos and the door.
Assuming the dealer fixes those items and I can find a place to garage it, I could afford to buy it outright and keep the MINI. Or maybe that's not the one for me. It is opening me up to considering higher mileage vehicles. In all honesty, the Xterra to 4runner would fit the bill best as a single car solution for me, but a Disco project is sorely tempting.
The 4 runner was in great shape, but was inside the showroom, so I didn't drive it. It did pass the sleeping in the back test. Had a nice nap before the dealer kicked me out
The 2006 LR3 and 2004 disco Were both at the same dealer and had interiors that were really ratty. In addition, the LR3 had malfunctioning or more likely disconnected air suspension. They were really in sad shape. The red Range Rover was in really good shape, but too nice to take camping. The Land Cruiser was also in good Condition other than a scuff on the bumper , but it felt a little too big to drive around the city.
That brings me to the 1999 Disco. Good lord was that truck cool!! It felt like a blast from the past, but also felt really solid, driving it felt like an adventure. It had 158k miles, worn tires with two leaks, and the 3 amigos. Also the driver's door lock was malfunctioning and the key was held together with tape. On the positive side, the engine ran great and a lot of work had clearly been done to it in the recent past. Also the only place I could see rust was on the headers and exhaust . The dealer said he was waiting on parts to fix the 3 amigos and the door.
Assuming the dealer fixes those items and I can find a place to garage it, I could afford to buy it outright and keep the MINI. Or maybe that's not the one for me. It is opening me up to considering higher mileage vehicles. In all honesty, the Xterra to 4runner would fit the bill best as a single car solution for me, but a Disco project is sorely tempting.
Many (including myself) are drawn to the unique blend of luxury/utility of the older Rovers. That being said, your initial post stated that reliability was a big issue for you as you didn't want something that would leave you stranded and also that you didn't have a place to work on your own vehicle. If these statements are still accurate, you are going in the wrong direction if you buy a 15 year old Discovery with 160k (or any 15 yr old vehicle) w/ 160k on it, unless you are willing to pay someone else a lot of money to work on it and are ok with recurring, nagging problems.
I would absolutely be looking at an LR3/4runner/xterra for you your needs over the 99 Dicso.
I would absolutely be looking at an LR3/4runner/xterra for you your needs over the 99 Dicso.
phobucket
Observer
Yeah, after sleeping on it the lust wore off a little. I think the main thing that is attracting me to the Land Rovers is the design. Not in the sense of being stylish (although they are), but in the sense that it feels very purpose built. The driving position and visibility are great. The center of gravity feels low for the size of the vehicle. Yesterday I was thinking reliability may not be quite as important if I still have a daily driver, but in reality, I don't want to get stuck in the middle of nowhere on vacation either. Having to fix something once I get back is acceptable. The older trucks feel a bit like Linux; you can fix anything that goes wrong, but something is always going wrong.
I'm checking out a lower mileage one today, but being a little bit patient may be my best option for now.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
I'm checking out a lower mileage one today, but being a little bit patient may be my best option for now.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
LR Max
Local Oaf
This is what you want in life. Trust me.
The rover will always be a project. Being able to leave the rover in the back of the garage and carry on with life has reduced a significant amount of stress and gives me a flexible time line.
I went on a major trip a couple weeks back. I was able to bring the rover back, throw it in the garage, then turn around, hop in my daily driver sedan, and do Thanksgiving. Then the following week I started a new job. Just this weekend I've finally had time to screw around with my rover. Not worrying about getting it ready to take me to work/life is great. Now that I've got time again, I'm getting it all cleaned up, some issues addressed, and just getting the truck back in decent shape to just drive. I like it.
For me, I DD a whatever sedan. Does great. Gives me good mpg and comfort. On the weekends, I love driving my 109.
aek50
Adventurer
Echo LR Max. I have a 91 Range Rover and a Jetta for a daily. I don't worry about gas mileage as much seeing the truck is only for trips. If you are driving a mini I bet the average fuel consumption with two vehicles would still be lower than going to a single truck for you primary vehicle even if that truck gets 20 mpg avg.
If there are issues, I work on truck as I can and make sure it is ready to go for the next trip. Since it isn't my daily I am not as concerned about dirt, scratches, dents and other debris I bring back from the trail. I can actually enjoy the truck and have some fun with it while out there, I have found it to be a perfect balance.
My own experience with a 22 year old Rover is yes, there are maintenance items that are always needing to be addressed but nothing that is out of the ordinary for a vehicle that age especially considering that when I use it, it gets used! Miles upon miles on rough roads jarring every bit of the truck for hours, up to the frame in mud or submerged through a crossing, used and abused. Really, it has held up and performed remarkably well all considering. Having driven Rovers and been around Rovers for years I can honestly say it has been exceedingly rare for a truck to break down on the trail or during a trip and of the ones that did I think I can honestly say every time it was some dumb little thing tied back to the owner purely neglecting the maintenance and truck in general before putting it through a rigorous outing. Most of the maintenance is up keep once home.
If there are issues, I work on truck as I can and make sure it is ready to go for the next trip. Since it isn't my daily I am not as concerned about dirt, scratches, dents and other debris I bring back from the trail. I can actually enjoy the truck and have some fun with it while out there, I have found it to be a perfect balance.
My own experience with a 22 year old Rover is yes, there are maintenance items that are always needing to be addressed but nothing that is out of the ordinary for a vehicle that age especially considering that when I use it, it gets used! Miles upon miles on rough roads jarring every bit of the truck for hours, up to the frame in mud or submerged through a crossing, used and abused. Really, it has held up and performed remarkably well all considering. Having driven Rovers and been around Rovers for years I can honestly say it has been exceedingly rare for a truck to break down on the trail or during a trip and of the ones that did I think I can honestly say every time it was some dumb little thing tied back to the owner purely neglecting the maintenance and truck in general before putting it through a rigorous outing. Most of the maintenance is up keep once home.
goinsurfin
Observer
After reading all the comments, I'd like to share my experience with a 2006 LR3 HSE. I've owned it for over 6 years and up to 112K miles. I cannot say that maintenance is any different than when it had 60k. I think may LR owners here will agree that you should look for a LR3 with the most documented maintenance history. This will give you a better indication on what has been done and what it may need in the near future. If you go with an undocumented LR3, then be realistic and prepared to update it with maintenance that was most likely neglected. Once its running, it is a joy to drive, both on road and on trails. It you are not realistic, then the LR3 may not be for you. However, it sounds like you are swaying this way... Cool!
I'll say that in the past 12 months and at random times, I replaced the brakes/rotors, battery, alternator control arms and added new tires last week. Never had issues with the suspension and the engine/transmission, or no electrical issues. Keep up with your fluids and change them at their respected time. Also, check out the landroverworld.org forum and talk with other LR3 owners. There are a hand full out there with over 150k miles and they are still going strong...
Overall its a great ride. I hate to get rid of it but since I know it so well, I don't know if I could replace it with another that has been maintained meticulously... but the dirtiest looking LR3 in Miami..
Good luck and enjoy whatever you decide....
I'll say that in the past 12 months and at random times, I replaced the brakes/rotors, battery, alternator control arms and added new tires last week. Never had issues with the suspension and the engine/transmission, or no electrical issues. Keep up with your fluids and change them at their respected time. Also, check out the landroverworld.org forum and talk with other LR3 owners. There are a hand full out there with over 150k miles and they are still going strong...
Overall its a great ride. I hate to get rid of it but since I know it so well, I don't know if I could replace it with another that has been maintained meticulously... but the dirtiest looking LR3 in Miami..
Good luck and enjoy whatever you decide....
spikemd
Explorer
I have a 2003 4Runner with 190k miles and 2000 Range Rover with 118k miles. The rover has been very reliable but I keep up with scheduled maintenance and address common problem areas before they are an issue. Most of my time and money has been spent on modifications not maintenance. The 4Runner has also been reliable but front calipers seized and the transfer case was replaced due to a leaking oring. It was cheaper to replace with a used TC rather than take it in to pull TC, crack open case and fix oring. That being said parts for the Toyota are substantially cheaper than parts for the rover but that is true of any european vehicle.
Both are great vehicles in their own right. (Opening myself up to P38 bashing). But as mentioned, you will know when you drive it. It has to feel right to you. If you like the truck then you will take the time to learn about it and work on it. If you can't wrench on your vehicle then stear clear of any rover unless you have deep pockets.
My overlanding truck is the rover. I enjoy driving it much more than the Toyota. The driving position is superior and i prefer the interior layout much more. But that is comparing a hand built truck to a mass production vehicle. I just got back from 2500 miles to Baja without any issues. I love the truck and it is highly modified now after many iterations and experimenting. You may find yourself modifying your truck more as you get out and use it. Sounds like you need a real truck, not a Subaru. But i am not bashing Subarus, they are great cars.
You might consider picking up a low mileage Disco and keeping your Mini. You can get out and explore without breaking the bank. An LR3, Land Cruiser or 4Runner would be excellent choices for you if you want to spend more money. The decision is what feels right for you. Drive them and drive many of them. There are plenty of examples out there. I spent more then 6 months looking for my vehicle and it was worth the wait to find a clean unmolested truck.
Both are great vehicles in their own right. (Opening myself up to P38 bashing). But as mentioned, you will know when you drive it. It has to feel right to you. If you like the truck then you will take the time to learn about it and work on it. If you can't wrench on your vehicle then stear clear of any rover unless you have deep pockets.
My overlanding truck is the rover. I enjoy driving it much more than the Toyota. The driving position is superior and i prefer the interior layout much more. But that is comparing a hand built truck to a mass production vehicle. I just got back from 2500 miles to Baja without any issues. I love the truck and it is highly modified now after many iterations and experimenting. You may find yourself modifying your truck more as you get out and use it. Sounds like you need a real truck, not a Subaru. But i am not bashing Subarus, they are great cars.
You might consider picking up a low mileage Disco and keeping your Mini. You can get out and explore without breaking the bank. An LR3, Land Cruiser or 4Runner would be excellent choices for you if you want to spend more money. The decision is what feels right for you. Drive them and drive many of them. There are plenty of examples out there. I spent more then 6 months looking for my vehicle and it was worth the wait to find a clean unmolested truck.
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Fivespddisco
Supporting Sponsor
I would re read your first post then go get an LR3.