goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
The problem is, automakers don't build what a consumer wants - they build what is profitable.
Chrysler on boad with 54.5 MPG CAFE requirement for 2025. Fingers crossed
- Thread starter Dan Grec
- Start date
The problem is, automakers don't build what a consumer wants - they build what is profitable.
CodyY
Explorer
Drill baby drill
So that has been the goal for 39 years? Look where we are at right now! I would say we need a better plan.
If the Govt wants auto makers to achieve these results, they are going to have to relax a little on the emissions side of things. We could easily increase fuel mileage 25-50% across the board right now with some lighter emissions standards. And I do believe that the net result would be the same amount of emissions overall, with less oil usage. I think a modification of the old saying holds true: Fuel efficient, clean, and affordable. Pick any two because the third one is not included.
P.S. CodyY, I love the Pinky and the Brain reference in your sig!
If the Govt wants auto makers to achieve these results, they are going to have to relax a little on the emissions side of things. We could easily increase fuel mileage 25-50% across the board right now with some lighter emissions standards. And I do believe that the net result would be the same amount of emissions overall, with less oil usage. I think a modification of the old saying holds true: Fuel efficient, clean, and affordable. Pick any two because the third one is not included.
P.S. CodyY, I love the Pinky and the Brain reference in your sig!
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that in thirteen years you may very well be able to get a more powerful engine that gets much better mileage. As others have pointed out, the entire fleet average needs only to be 54MPG, so potentially the bigger trucks in the fleet will only need to get 30-35MPG. That's a huge win.
I suppose you don't like how they regulate the quality of your gasoline either?
I'll bet you hate that when you pay for a gallon of gasoline, you actually get a gallon because of government regulations.
-Dan
I think what he is saying is that he doesn't like the way these things are implemented with no care about how it effects the consumer. Case in point are the new emissions standards for big trucks. Hundreds of thousands of truckers who own and maintain their fleets are going out of business because they cant afford to buy the new truck that the government tells them they have to drive because their old one is too dirty. The reason that these trucks are so expensive is because the emissions requirements went from nil to super stringent in such a short period of time and the older vehicles are not exempt. They must be taken off the road or retrofitted at an extreme cost. This kind of government intervention with people's livelihoods is too much and needs to be reigned in.
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
How do you feel about the national "do-not-call-list" ?
Think about all those poor telemarketers who were put out business and can't feed their families now, just because the government stepped in.
Sometimes, the government needs to step in and make regulations for the greater good of all. It was decided that stopping people making invasive telephone calls to your home at family time was more important than those people making a living.
It's the same with the truckers - making sure we all have breathable air is more important.
-Dan
P.S. Now think about that with people who used to sell and/or install asbestos for a living.
CodyY
Explorer
It's tragic. :rolleyes
ManleyORV
Rugged. Reliable. Ready.
I just read this in USA Today this morning. An interesting points, which I am not sure if someone mentioned yet, but the CAFE standards are vastly different than what is on the window sticker. They said that 54.5mpg works out to about 40mpg on the window sticker. One is lab tested and the later is real world. So it is not "as" big of a jump as it first seems. Also trucks are exempt or don't have to follow the same standards for now since they are used for work and towing.
The next 10 years are going to be very interesting for vehicle manufacturers. We have 50mpg cars and 650hp Ford Mustangs. And both selling very well. Quite the dichotomy.
-Josh
The next 10 years are going to be very interesting for vehicle manufacturers. We have 50mpg cars and 650hp Ford Mustangs. And both selling very well. Quite the dichotomy.
-Josh
I believe this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. It is my belief that the govt steps in way too often where they are not needed, and they do not always have the greater good as their agenda. Oh and it doesn't matter how clean your air is if your food doesn't show up at the store because of out of work truckers. There is a compromise.
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
For sure. Obviously the government needs to step in and regulate some things (what's legal to put in food, the size of a gallon, not using asbestos anymore) etc.
Everyone has a different idea of "how much is too much".
I personally think the fundamental difference in thinking comes down to "Do you want to improve the way things are, or do you want to keep everything the same."
It's safe to say European and Japanese auto-makers are subscribing to the "Make it better" mentality, and I think there is a huge risk of North American auto makers being left in the dust. Toyota is now the biggest auto maker in the world, and if not for the bail-outs, I think more than a few North American brands would be gone (or totally different).
-Dan
CodyY
Explorer
Fuel and oil prices alone are enough to drive sales of better performance and economy. Ever notice how high yhe mfg rebates are on Trucks when gas is $4/gallon.
German and Japanese "improvement" is a cultural attribute and not driven by their government regulations. Gemba Kaizen translates to "continued improvement", not "because we have to".
I have every interest in improving the industry, as a former Lexus and Cadillac tech, I've seen the improvement. But we all well know that the free-market capitalist system works; and oppressive government socialism does not. Just ask the Russians. From the automobile industry to Obamacare, government guidelines for health and safety are fine, but mandatory fuel mileage that works against an already struggling economy is just more "hope".
For the record my cousin owns a trucking company and just purchased six new 2013 Peterbuilt trucks. Idling in LA or NYC, the air going in the filter is dirtier than the air coming out of the stack. Incredible feat of engineering as far as I'm concerned, but at what cost? Those trucks cost him nearly $2,000,000 to purchase. This causes his overhead to increase, and now you're paying $3 for a gallon of milk. Or anything petroleum based, have you seen the price of paint these days?
Blah blah
Cody
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
And that's the great debate that everything (not just the CAFE standard) centers on, isn't it?
Where should the government draw the line? At what point does the government say "enough is enough"? It's well known that many (not all) powerful companies have manipulated the market in an effort grow their bottom line (think: Enron). When does the government step in and stop the manipulation, fraud and downright theft?
I may draw the line over here, and the next person will probably draw it over there somewhere. Whose line is in the right spot? Are either of them? About the only thing that most will agree on is that there needs to be a line somewhere. We (collectively) just haven't agreed on where it should be.
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
I believe Japan has some of the strictest mileage requirements in the world. Mandated by the government.
You seem OK with the government regulating what chemicals can go in your food, but when we start talking about gas mileage regulation you want to bring up "oppressive socialism" and the Russians?
Sounds like fear mongering to me.
I wonder how your socialist Police force, firefighters, elementary schools, garbage collection and roads are working out for you?
Socialism is not equal to oppressive.
You are confusing many different issues here.
What makes you think a gallon of milk should be less than $3 ?
Go complain to Europeans about the cost of gasoline and see how far that gets you.
-Dan
CodyY
Explorer
60% fuel tax in the UK.
http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/fuel.html
"Light duty" trucks figured in CAFE standard. 10,000 lb gvw and under.
That would mean all half ton and most 3/4ton. If you can get 20mpg out of a V8 half ton, you're going to have to get 75+ from something else. Good luck with that.
That means hybrid technology, awesome; but more pollution is created in the production of a Prius and it's batteries than all the fuel used by a H2 over it's service life.
The average here is skewed the wrong direction
http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/fuel.html
"Light duty" trucks figured in CAFE standard. 10,000 lb gvw and under.
That would mean all half ton and most 3/4ton. If you can get 20mpg out of a V8 half ton, you're going to have to get 75+ from something else. Good luck with that.
That means hybrid technology, awesome; but more pollution is created in the production of a Prius and it's batteries than all the fuel used by a H2 over it's service life.
The average here is skewed the wrong direction
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