Coke Ovens: Request from the land owner

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

Wow! Those are kewl! or hot! I mean.









get it oven = hot. ok maybe it lost something in the translation. Thanks for the pics.

 

[adventureduo]

We can still walk in right? Cause i haven't been there yet. It's on my list to-do.

Has anyone posted this on panamintcharlie.com? or read anything over there?

I'll see if i can find out anything more. My good friend just moved to live at Panamint
Springs resort year round. He was just at the ovens 2 weeks ago.

 

[awalter]

We can still walk in right? Cause i haven't been there yet. It's on my list to-do.

Has anyone posted this on panamintcharlie.com? or read anything over there?

I'll see if i can find out anything more. My good friend just moved to live at Panamint
Springs resort year round. He was just at the ovens 2 weeks ago.

The coke ovens referred to here are in AZ. Don't confuse them with the ones in Death Valley.

 

[Allen McMurtrie]

I received an email from the land owner of the Coke Ovens property. She is asking that the OHV community not trespass on their land, which includes the ovens and the home (what is left of it). They are having horrible vandalism issues, which is destroying that entire area.

I know that no one on this forum (and most in the area clubs) would vandalise that site, but lets respect the owners wishes and not drive in to the ovens if it is posted "no trespassing" or not (the signs are getting stolen or shot up).

Hi Scott

I'm looking for verification of the fact the ovens are closed. Without the actual notice from the owner LEO's cannot enforce trespass, and therefore people will keep visiting the ovens. If you have such an e-mail you should post it at the heading of your trip report and make it available to view, then maybe the million or so people on this interweb that disagree with you will find the truth!

I have confirmed the law and officers need at least 1 of:
1. the owner to trespass you
2. a sign that says keep out
3. a fence
to enforce, but none of those exist!

I believe the owner has the right to close it, but she has fallen short in her efforts to make it happen. Just telling you doesn't make the area legally closed to everyone.... just to you.

If you have the owners written request I'd be happy to help post it up on all the jeep websites and spread the word until it actually gets people stopping.

I'd rather work with the owner to get a club sponsorship for the area and keep it maintained and open.

 

[Ozrockrat]

Vandal proof the buildings ??

I know it is a difficult task but somewhere on the Cape (Australia, Cape York) there is a set of buildings that they have preserved and basically vandal proofed from what I can remember. I think it was the Old Laura Station (but that memory was a lot of beers ago. Could of been one of the telegraph stations). Along with working with the land owner to keep the place clean and limit access we could do something along the same lines.

I bet Ron Moon could quickly tell you which place I am thinking off and grab some photos.

I would be willing to help out!

 

[ShottsCruisers]

Legal signs, fences, whatever won't keep those small percentages of irrisponsible and drunken wheelers out of closed places like the Ovens. It's a shame...but reality.

 

[Allen McMurtrie]

true, but if signs were posted and those signs were photographed and posted here and other places then LEO's who find a drunken bash going on there WOULD be able to do something.... as of now they cannot!

 

[Scott Brady]

Here are all of the emails. The only thing edited are the email address removed.


UPDATE: Added Email Dialog from Family. Contact information removed.

From: KARA TRAUT
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:47 PM
To: @expeditionswest.com
Subject: Coke Ovens trip

I have seen in your pictures that you have been right up to the coke ovens. I have read that they are on private land. Do you get permission from the owner to be there?

----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Brady
To: 'KARA TRAUT'
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: Coke Ovens trip

Hi Kara,

The Coke Ovens are on private land. There are just other ways to access the area and view the Ovens from a distance, without trespassing (if there is a trespassing issue at this time).

The southern route crosses the Gila near the old Cochran town site and the other parallels the Gila on the north side for several miles and then turns north at Walnut Canyon.

As far as the boundaries to the private land, I have not looked at a plat. I do know the actual ovens are on private land (or at least were), as many years ago one was modified for use as a unique motel.

Hope this help

What is your interest in the Ovens? Maybe I can help point you in the right direction for more information.

Scott Brady
Expeditions West
www.expeditionswest.com

My interest in the ovens is that my family owns them and I am sick about people thinking that they can go onto private land without permission. I am more sick that people think they have to vandalize. I realize that you are not one of those people. They are a historical site and soon they won't be there anymore. I wanted to know if anyone actually knows that they are privately owned and that they are trespassing when visiting there. Sorry that I singled you out, but you were the only one that was readily accessible. I just wish there was something I could do to keep the riff raff out, but our hands are tied. The law is on everyone else's side, not the landowners. We put signs up and have fenced it, but it doesn't matter.

Kara

----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Brady
To: 'KARA TRAUT'
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Coke Ovens trip

Kara,

I will update my website to reflect your wishes of no trespassing. I can also post the „no trespassing‰ request on the discussion forums that service Arizona OHV clubs. The effect it will have is minimal, as clubs rarely, if ever have vandalism problems. I even know of a few clubs that have done clean-up runs to the area of your property to fix some of the mess. The problem is the small groups of ATV and OHV users that are drinking and accessing the area. Nothing is sacred in their mind.

Historical sites throughout the area have been vandalized and destroyed. It is so heartbreaking that I do not go back to the Florence Junction area anymore. Martinez Canyon was closed for nearly a year due to vandalism.

5 million people are within a few hours of your property now∑an unsustainable situation.

Scott Brady
Expeditions West
www.expeditionswest.com

Scott, I appreciate that. But, like you say, it won't do any good anyway. We have put 'No Trespassing' signs right on the property and it hasn't helped. So the OHV clubs are jeeps and such that go? I saw one site that had 4-wheelers and dirt bikes pictures. I can imagine those are the people tearing up the roads as well.

I also appreciate that you appreciate the land. As I said before, I know you aren't one that is vandalizing.

Again, I apologize for singling you out. I was upset last night after seeing so many sites with pictures. But it is something that we have to live with because it will never be stopped. Pretty soon there won't be anything left to go see anyway.

Thanks for hanging in there with me!!

Kara

I forgot to mention:

I had no idea that people have gone out to pick up the place. That is a very nice gesture and I will be sure and tell my father that is being done. That does show that there are good people left. Thank you.

Kara

From: William Lorenz -
To:
Subject: Coke Oven Info

Scott -

We understand that you have been in contact with Kara Traut, daughter of Donn Lorenz, the Coke Oven property owner. She mentioned that you may want more information on this property.

Attached find photos of the Coke Oven property, circa 1992, in the original condition. Also note photo of fence repair across the trail.

See following email with property boundaries.

Sincerely,
William Lorenz
Son of Donn, owner

Bill,

Thank you so much for the email and follow-up. I apologize for the delayed reply, as I have been on an expedition to the Arctic: http://www.expeditionswest.com/arctic_ocean/index.htm

The images you share are heartbreaking. When I first started traveling to the ovens, your father still lived on the property. It was always a pleasure to visit.

Now, most of the area has been ransacked by our growing population of wildcat OHV’ers, principally ATV and dirt bike riders. I am sorry that your family must see the degradation of your fathers land and property at the hands of selfless individuals.

With your permission, I will post some of the images you sent to show the destruction of the property and how it looked in the past.

Is there any way the OHV community can support your family? I will relay your wishes to the community. Can we do a clean-up, post signs, help with maintenance, etc.? If your wish is that we simply “keep out”, then we will gladly respect that as well.

All the best Sir.

Regards,

Scott Brady
Expeditions West, LLC
www.expeditionswest.com

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[Scott Brady]

I'm looking for verification of the fact the ovens are closed. Without the actual notice from the owner LEO's cannot enforce trespass, and therefore people will keep visiting the ovens. If you have such an e-mail you should post it at the heading of your trip report and make it available to view, then maybe the million or so people on this interweb that disagree with you will find the truth!

I have posted what you requested. The 'million' that disagree only do so because it serves their interest, not those of the family that made the request. And we wonder why trails get closed. . .

 

[agavelvr]

From: KARA TRAUT
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:47 PM
To: @expeditionswest.com
Subject: Coke Ovens trip

I have seen in your pictures that you have been right up to the coke ovens. I have read that they are on private land. Do you get permission from the owner to be there?

I feel bad for land owners who suffer the effects of mindless vandalism of their property. I do find it odd that a family member of the "owner" would use such bait tactics to get information from you in the beginning of your exchange. What ever became of all the clubs posting no trespassing signs for the family and such. Did the family ever set up anything in this regard? It's been 5 years and little to nothing has been done?

If you are a property owner in remote areas, you enjoy the benefits of solitude but must be vigilent against predation by yahoos. It stinks, but that's reality. It is no different than personal protection in an unsavory urban area. You either prepare yourself for possible problems or choose not to go.

I bet the old guy that used to live there is a cool. It is unfortunate that the family has not stepped up their efforts to protect something that seems to be important to them.

 

[Scott Brady]

Yeah Jeff, it was full bait and switch at the start of the exchange. I can see it from her perspective though and the fear of being attacked verbally, etc.

 

[agavelvr]

After reading this again, there seems to be a PR issue in the OHV community in regards to the characterization of clubs vs random ATVs, bikers, etc.

In my experience, the organization of the user group has little to do with the land use ethic. Individuals rarely commit acts of vandalism or abuse in remote areas, rather a flawed individual is enpowered to do so when traveling in a group. People with vandal tendencies are generally doing their misdeeds for the attention of a peer group (be it good or bad).

The last time I was in the coke oven vicinity with some **EDIT** members, they triumphantly showed me some cell phone pics of their rigs, along with some of the club leadership's rigs possing on the coke ovens and pulling things out of the Martinez mill...this from the same club leaders who helped the blm with a mine inventory of the area and numerous cleanups.

I did a trail run in central Arizona, led by a company that teaches 4x4 driving. I "learned" that you should always close cattle gates (so the cattle die of thirst I guess), no matter how you find them. Then we proceeded to go "mudding" part of the General Crook Trail along with committing numerous other no-nos.

I have had to tell two Sierra Club members to pick up their butts during an interpretive hike I was leading for the forest service.

Even at the coke ovens back in the 90's, there was a modern trash pile, conveniently located just off property.

So, while driving a nice expedition vehicle or being in a club might project the image of stewardship, there is a given % of all populations that just suck plain and simple. Like a bad apple ruining the bunch, a lame person can swing a group into behaving badly almost unconsiously.

Locked doors keep honest people out, a trail closure in that area would probably result in increased vandalism. That's what I have seen out at the Butterfield Stage Area that was closed a few years ago...The last 3 times I have driven by there I have seen dirt bikes or dust clouds and it is well signed and fenced.

I honestly hope the land owners can find peace. It is so frustrating to have your land violated. At some point the frustration becomes motivation to sell or take appropriate action.

 

[agavelvr]

Yeah Jeff, it was full bait and switch at the start of the exchange. I can see it from her perspective though and the fear of being attacked verbally, etc.

Yes, after having our own family property and animals damaged or stolen, I can relate to the emotions they probably are having. I wish there was a cure for the yahoo gene.

 

[Adventure IQ]

Heart breaking.... My grand dad took me out there in late 70's early 80's. Sad we cant hang vandals

 

[I Leak Oil]

...and therein lies the problem. There is no real disincentive for the law breakers. Even if caught it's nothing more than a scolding. Have we become too humanitarian to the criminal? Absolutely! Meanwhile the victim lives with the crime forever...