Comparison shopping: Colorado, Gladiator, Tacoma

spectre6000

Observer
Awww ********, you got me there!
Next time I see Voltaire, I’m gonna give him hell for stealing that quote from Descartes.

(From Wikipedia)
François-Marie Arouet, known by his nom de plume Voltaire, was a French Enlightenment writer, historian, and philosopher famous for his wit, as well as his advocacy of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and was also well known for frequently trying to take credit for quotes from another famous French writer, Rene Descartes....”
Ah! Beat me to it! I minored in philosophy. This is fun. Kant fan, personally.

Meanwhile, let's rein it back in a bit...

It's more or less down to the following:

The Gladiator for sure has character (my preferred moniker for the phenomenon we've been trying to nail down). Its shortcomings are that it's kinda big, kinda expensive, no diesel (yet), no toppers (yet), poor road manners, noisy, etc. Also, kind of more than I NEED. My preferred studded snows only come in 33"s, and that's almost not enough tire for the platform.

The Colorado's character is a bit less proven, and may require time. That aside, it's a better overall fit on paper. It definitely has some cheapness to it as well (is this a character element?).

Either will get the job done with aplomb, but that 500K checkbox REQUIRES character or I, like anyone else, will eventually get bored and move on or find some shinier thing. The cost and utility is suspect with the one, and the character with the other... I'm willing to sacrifice some cost and utility for character; that sacrifice itself is kinda at the core of what character is, as previously defined.

So, does the Colorado have character... Overall visual aesthetic, not really... The Bison package ads some visual interest for sure, but I don't know that it rises to the level of character; at least not enough for its own sake. Although, it's very clearly a world market vehicle adapted to the US market, and that's a relatively rare phenomenon in the category. You really see it in the nose (not on the Canyon), and the Americanization is all in the wheel wells.

The capability is definitely a character attribute. Sacrificing some payload, towing capacity, and fuel economy are sort of character elements. I see it as Colorado : ZR2 : Bison :: Camaro : SS : Z28. Aside probably from malaise-related issues, a base Camaro is pretty bland and not likely to stick around. An SS is much more interesting, but you've really gotta be into it. A Z28? I'm not really a muscle car guy, but I'd own one for sure given the right opportunity.

Also, the everyday niceties, I feel, will have a tendency to endear the owner to the machine. My BMW had a nice interior and some nice features in addition to an excellent drivetrain and chassis, and that made it a nice place to be. I don't think that's necessarily a worthy thing unto itself. I don't know that anyone is going to be collecting classic Lexus LSes or anything... Mercedes S-Class, Maybach, Rolls Royce, Bentley... People do get into those and work hard to keep them on the road.

In fact, could that be a negative? If it's too 'nice' does it get boring? My bus was hell in the Dallas summers... Driving on the highway with the ceiling vent open and the aftermarket air deflectors directing the air directly down onto the top of my sweaty bald head meant road schmutz would accumulate after a while and I looked dirty. Once on a road trip through a particularly cold stretch of road, we ended up shoving dirty laundry up above the sun visors to block the drafts. The bench seat was vinyl, and vinyl is always gross. It was incredibly loud without either a mattress over the engine compartment or a cab divider. For all that though, it was a blast to drive. Conversely, my brother owns a Kia (uppercase) Soul. To swap terminology, it has no (lowercase) soul. It's a nice place to be with AC, reasonable NVH, a functional stereo, etc., but a cross country road trip in a Soul would be soul crushing. The car (which doesn't necessarily need to be part of the trip) doesn't contribute as much as it could; it's a prop, not a player. Before anyone says something to the effect of "but would you want to drive something every day with the sort of character I described above?", YES!!!! It's fantastic! That's what character means! What would otherwise be considered faults are somehow transformed into a new thing: character. It's not a negative (though maybe a bit in the moment), and these things, despite sounding dreadful, are looked back on with a smile physically on my face as I type this.

Overall of this is definitely an element of hindsight. There are some cars that are clearly 'classics' from the start. Many others have to be revealed with time. The same things that make Beetles classics could likely be said about a K-Car. I actually knew a guy who was really into K-Cars, but even he knew that was weird. What's really the difference between them that makes one a winner and the other a loser? Quality maybe... The VWs were genuinely good quality cars, and the K-Cars were crap from day one. I'm pretty sure, I was into a very different kind of car back then... Mostly Batmobiles, IIRC. The Colorado's cheapness may cause it to swing a bit toward the K-Car rather than the VW. The Gladiator, IIRC from my brief visit with one, did not have any noticeable quality issues, but it was also the first truck I looked at.

This is all manner of disjointed... Sorry. Thinking 'aloud' for the sake of the conversation. This is very good stuff!
 

AbleGuy

Officious Intermeddler
I’m really enjoying your stream of consciousness write ups. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

I’m especially interested to follow your decision making process to its conclusion because I’m probably headed to a new truck purchase this winter and am looking at mid-sized trucks. So you are helping me a great deal by “plowing the road in front of me.”

Cheers.
 

spectre6000

Observer
Yay! I'm glad. That was half of the point, with the other half being to hopefully spur conversation like this to really get ME thinking. Success on both counts!

I just saw that Dodge looks like they're about to release some specs on the 3.0L ecoDiesel as found in the 1500 Rams. The 1500 Ram with the ecoDiesel has a 12K lb tow rating, and the Gladiator is cooling limited to 7700 lbs., reduced to 7000 lbs in Rubicon guise for suspension limitations. If they take that extra capacity and retune, mpg should be pretty crazy... I don't recall the mpg figures for the Ram full size that previously had the ecoDiesel, and the Gladiator will take a hit for aerodynamic reasons, but if it's more powerful than the Chevy, and they put all that unused capacity toward economy, it could be pretty epic...

The EPA figures for the Chevy diesel in ZR2 trim are less than impressive in light of the new I6 Duramax in the full size. It does seem people are consistently beating the ratings, but in my test drive I want to say I was seeing ~25mpg indicated in a ZL1. It's worth noting here, that I'm a very conservative driver. I used to drive aggressively. Each region has its own driving vernacular, and I learned to drive in Dallas, which is pretty damn aggressive. I started driving much more conservatively when I had the bus, in part due to how slow they are, and in part for dear life since 'knees' and 'crumple zones' are synonymous is bus parlance. I am really good at beating EPA fuel economy numbers in nearly every car I've owned. That's aided further by altitude with NA engines since lower air density means less oxygen means less fuel per volume of air per stroke means better fuel economy but less power. However, the turbo negates that one. On the other hand, I was headed up hill, and up 70 for that matter (for people not familiar with Denver, that's a 65mph up the steepest grade in the country for any major highway), so it wasn't ideal for setting any mpg records. When I see people reporting fuel economy figures, the highest figures are often achieved on 'deleted' trucks. I care about the environment, so I won't be doing that, so it's looking like I'll likely only be seeing on the order of mid-high-20s... The Gladiator figures will undoubtedly disappoint in that regard, but will likely still beat the Colorado handily.

Then there's the matter of engine architecture. The EcoDiesel is a V6 to the Duramax's I4. OPINION WARNING! V6es are inherently flawed, and exist for the sole purpose of packaging. There is precisely and totally zero reasons for any V6 ever in any application aside from packaging. You take two rattle-trap trips and duct tape them together, and things will not end well. They feel like crap, sound like crap, and their output curves are crap ESPECIALLY for a truck. A I4 has less power stroke overlap (none, actually), but at least it's simple and reasonably well balanced. Fewer moving parts is always a good thing. I'm not 100% sure because I'm having a hard time find much in the way of truly technical information on either, but if we assume similar cam timing strategies, the I4 wins in my book. EXCEPT...

The EcoDiesel has a chain to the Duramax's belt, and the reason for it (NVH) I find super dumb, but whatever... It's a 150K service life (aka 'lifetime'). If it is actually capable of that, and I don't see why not, that really technically puts it on par with a chain if you accept that they do actually need to be replaced every so often for stretch and guide wear. The downside being that chains almost never break, even with neglect.

Finally, it sounds like the ecoDiesel might have some pretty new emissions tech that may require a bit of teething, and I don't feel like the amount of time and the expected take rate for the Ram 1500 between now and when the diesel Gladiator is released to be enough to get it all smoothed out. Specifically, I heard mention of a "high pressure EGR"; it may not be new, but I'm not familiar with it.
 
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spectre6000

Observer
Oh, another thing, and it's minor. I like to have a second set of wheels for summer/winter rotation. With my wife's Jeep, we were able to pick up a second set of stock wheels like it was nothing. We're not super concerned with style, so stock is AOK.

What I do care about, is offset and not having spacers. I know the Bison has special wheels, and it's not just style; they're a different offset. I think I've seen a 13mm delta, but I don't know the specifics for sure. That offset helps fit 33" tires with "less trimming" (I still don't know what that means), and it's looking like the speedometer correction options on the aftermarket available for the Colorado are much more involved than with the Jeep. Switching tire sizes back and forth is essentially not an option, so I'd need to have wheels with a similar offset, and the aftermarket is not there yet. So I'd pretty much be limited to hopefully picking up a set of Bison wheel that someone takes off in favor of something aftermarket, but may be forced to buy a set from the factory ($$$).
 

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
A I4 has less power stroke overlap (none, actually), but at least it's simple and reasonably well balanced. Fewer moving parts is always a good thing. I'm not 100% sure because I'm having a hard time find much in the way of truly technical information on either, but if we assume similar cam timing strategies, the I4 wins in my book. EXCEPT...

Actually a V6 generally runs smoother than a 4. You very rarely see balance shafts on a V6 but even 1960's John Deere I4 tractor engines have balance shafts...

An I6 has the best balance of anything and they usually run as smooth as glass. Kind of a dead horse nowadays though.

The EcoDiesel has a chain to the Duramax's belt, and the reason for it (NVH) I find super dumb, but whatever... It's a 150K service life (aka 'lifetime'). If it is actually capable of that, and I don't see why not, that really technically puts it on par with a chain if you accept that they do actually need to be replaced every so often for stretch and guide wear. The downside being that chains almost never break, even with neglect.

Ford went belt on the '150 diesel too. Looks like a 20' belt on the front for the cams and another smaller one on the back to run a fuel pump. Stupid, no reason for a timing belt on a diesel. If anything goes sideways with it the engine is wrecked. To replace it for maintenance you will probably have to explode the front of the truck which will not be cheap to do either.

Personally I wouldn't touch a modern diesel especially if you want to run it forever.
 

spectre6000

Observer
OEM bison wheels (Salta style) are 33mm, same as OEM regular ZR2 wheels. Easily found on Craigslist.

AEV Crestone beadlocks are made for the ZR2 specifically.


The Crestones are not the same as factory Bison.

Do you have those specs somewhere? I've not been able to find them, just read a few places that they're different. AEV stated 33" should be easier to fit with the Bison package than ZR2. It doesn't appear to be anything special about the fender flares, so the wheel offset makes sense.

Actually a V6 generally runs smoother than a 4. You very rarely see balance shafts on a V6 but even 1960's John Deere I4 tractor engines have balance shafts...

An I6 has the best balance of anything and they usually run as smooth as glass. Kind of a dead horse nowadays though.

If you want smooth, get yourself a rotary! For any application requiring torque or a less high strung driving experience though, I6 is the best answer. Since it's not an option in the midsize truck market though...

A V6 will have smoother power delivery due to 30* of power stroke overlap, but they're horribly unbalanced harmonically. They have balance shafts more often than not. I can think of some old school 90* V6s that were hatchet job V8s that didn't have balance shafts because the V8s they came from didn't have them. GM's 4.3L specifically comes to mind, I'm pretty sure the Maserati Biturbo had the same origin and lack of balance shaft, but that's all I can think of. I know the Toyota truck V6s all had balance shafts, as does anything with upmarket pretenses. I could be corrected, I don't like V6es, and can't think of one I've ever really been inside... The only harmonics that are happy are due to crankshaft counterweighting and the fact that there are no paired pistons. There's no way to make the banks happy unto themselves, and then there's two of them. Lots of energy is being used to shake the engine fore and aft, and side to side. That's why they suck down low in the RPM band; they're fighting themselves internally. Until you can get the thing shaking at a high enough frequency to reduce the amplitude, you're throwing a TON of torque into the engine mounts. For a car, it doesn't matter as long as it can get out of its own way; trucks are all about low RPM torque though.

I4's don't require balance shafts at all, and typically don't have them. Or at least they didn't used to... I don't really keep up with most cars running I4s to be honest... It was the engine of choice in old British roadsters, and I can't think of a single one with a balance shaft. I understand the 2.8 Duramax does, but it's my understanding that the intent was to de-deiselize the diesel for Americans who don't like diesels, and it's truly the only I4 I'm aware of with a balance shaft. The HUGE caveat there, again, is that there are very few cars that enter my radar with an I4. The Alfa Romeo 4C, Honda S2000, Toyota MR2... That's all I can think of from the past three decades with I4s that are of any interest, and I'm fairly certain none had balance shafts. I4s aren't totally balanced like a I6, but I don't remember off the top of my head which harmonics are off and how. I can imagine, especially these days where turbo 4s are in EVERYTHING including entry level luxury cars, that they're more common than they used to be.
 

rpearce1475

New member
Lots of great discussion here! Love especially all the talk about vehicles having ''character'' and ''soul''. Growing up, my father drove older volvos and a Lotus convertible. It had a comically leaky top, was uncomfortable on the road, but he loved that thing to death. My mother was always trying to get him to consolidate into a newer sports car/sports saloon but he vehemently resisted, stating ''those newer cars don't have a soul'' (he named all his cars, a legacy I proudly carry on to this day). My mother was befuddled by this, incredulous as to the fact that a collection of metal, rubber, plastic, and oil could ''have a soul'' several times she (mostly jokingly) mentioned my father needed to ''get his head checked'' for this. I never really understood his point growing up, I just followed along and (of course) agreed with him wholeheartedly as any young boy tends to do with their father. But I get it now. My current car doesn't have character, doesn't have ''a soul'' and I hate that. Driving just isn't as fun anymore...
 

vintageracer

To Infinity and Beyond!
At the end of the day and this discussion a "Vehicle", whatever type vehicle a person chooses to drive, for the vast majority of the driving public (Dare I say 98% or MORE) is just TRANSPORTATION. Nothing more!!! A means of conveyance to get from point A to Point B.

There are people who try to equate their success, their passions, their zest for life, their ego, their "Soul" and their desire for upward mobility through the vehicle they choose to drive yet when it's all said and done that vehicle is STILL JUST TRANSPORTATION!

Most folks will not admit it however the more "Unique" the vehicle you drive the better the chance you will be noticed and for heaven sakes remembered. And let's not forget photographed and posted on Istagram! Oh and then there are those that just have to show everyone everything they do, own and drive on Facebook. Why in the world would you think anyone else cares???

Kinda like my "Signature" below on my all posts.

I guess I must be one real Eqotistical SOB and I didn't even know it!!!
 

spectre6000

Observer
Car (really, just engine/chassis) with soul story:

At one point in my car rotation history, I had a really nice 57 Karmann Ghia. Beautiful car. I sold it for a lot of money, and at that point was starting to get into the price realm where there was just too much at stake if I made a bad decision. I cashed out. With the money I had in the car itself, I paid off some debts. With the profit (a little over $2K), I started at the bottom again. I found a rusty '86 RX7 (minor rule violation on the vintage); naturally aspirated. I cleaned it up and made it happy and good everywhere that mattered, and then just drove it. It was ugly. My wife hated it. It was ugly. Did I mention that thing was an ugly, rusty, pile? But that engine... Dear god. Even without a turbo, that rotary was a twirling Dorito of sex. The suspension was pretty good too; they cribbed some geometric trickery from the Porsche 964, IIRC. If you threw it hard into a corner, the rear wheels would toe such that the rear end sort of turned into the corner like a full traction drift. Combined with the front mid engine and light weight, it was so good... The thing turned around you as you turned into the corner. And that engine! So linear; it just wanted to go to the moon. Like a really well sorted straight six, but without a ceiling. There's a buzzer to remind you to shift before you do damage, because it just keeps pulling. But so ugly... I ultimately traded it pink for pink for my K10 after just 3 months (my shortest hold), but I will own another rotary. In fact, the plan was to buy an RX8 next spring, and buy the truck in a few years once the midsize truck wars REALLY got heated... This truck dying/baby coming business though... That was an ugly POS, but so much character/soul. Just outstanding.

How much of soul/character requires hindsight, I wonder? If I knew how fondly I would look back on it, would I have been so quick to dump it? Probably... I hate rust, my wife hated the extreme 80s of it, and I was able to trade up exactly as I needed to if I was going to climb the ladder again, and shortcut the middle bit. But still. The flaws and foibles (leaking tops, loud engines, relatively frequent breakdowns) seem like negatives in the moment, but I can't tell you how many times I've regaled an audience with tales of being rescued by "Tennessee Jed" and a professional Santa Clause one summer in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee because my bus broke down during our honeymoon. We took it in stride and my wife took lots of photos (FTR, this was before Instagram and #VanLife were things) while I tried to keep the crank turning, because we'd been there before. In that same vehicle no less (my mechanical skills weren't quite to the level they are now). At the time, the dreaded motto was "It's not an adventure until something goes wrong!", and it went wrong more often than I'd probably be comfortable with in my "more advanced years" (I'm 33), especially with a kid... Or maybe that's precisely when those things should be happening... I have the tools (physical and otherwise) and mental fortitude to be able to handle such events without skipping a beat; mayhap that sort of cool, even keel, problem solving, and "no biggie, we got this" and then get this attitude would be an incredibly positive formative force on a child... Would I have considered these sorts of things (capital C) Character in the moment?

I polled my wife this morning while we're coffee-ing. She has been with me for every step of my automotive odyssey. I tried to avoid priming her with the conversation thus far, and she delivered some gems. From her:

A car with character is one that stands out in some way. A lot of our cars have stood out because they're out of time. A Beetle was hardly unusual 50 years ago, but these days, they're hens' teeth. I think this ties back and in a bit in that a car must be of sufficient quality and INITIAL character that its preservation to the point that it IS out of time can be justified. There are some British manufactures (Morgan for instance) that make cars of old designs or (as in the case with Jaguar, and another very niche make I forget the name of at the moment) are sort of re-issuing old cars on VINs that were never delivered. These are definitely out of time, but I feel like they might be more 'baubles' than cars... I don't know. I might feel different if it were in front of me. Either way, that out-of-time-ness is a means of standing out, and it plays on/comports with/reinforces the hindsight premise, but makes it more of a secondary element. Modern cars can stand out too. Her examples were the roll down rear window in the 4Runner, the boxy early Scion xB/Kia Soul/Nissan Cube, I would add the asymmetry of the Nissan Cube, something about the FJ Cruiser, and early hybrids. While you swallow your vomit, let me expand on that hybrid one, because her case is very strong in light of this conversation. They were built for a purpose: extreme fuel efficiency. There were flaws that the owners happily lived with in pursuit of that purpose: where do we start? They had a very unique look that stood out in the crowd of melted soap sedans and SUVs... They check all the boxes, and there's no way around it. Not our cup of tea maybe, but undeniable. And that leads to her last bullet point: it must elicit a reaction. Early hybrid cars have soul. I said it. All of us groan at the thought, and that is a checked box right there. It's not the reaction she had in mind though. Her exact intended reaction was, "that's awesome from us, that's weird from my mother" (my mother in law).

So, bringing it back in here a bit, how does that relate to the truck conversation? Obviously, anything that's going to make it to the 500K checkbox needs to warrant dragging it all that way. That requires character. The Jeep definitely has some, but I have to second guess that a bit. Around here, the cost of admission is the purchase of either a Jeep or a Subaru depending on your altitude. So how unique will the Gladiator actually be? Especially when you consider that I doubt I'll have much in the way of time to make it unique in the next few years AND the fact that nearly everyone else will? When we visit family back in Texas, it always catches my eye when I see basic, non-lifted, 2wd, stock tire size trucks. That's not a thing around here. I would be driving the local equivalent. On the other hand, I saw a Colorado drive by a few days ago with the big 80s style roll bar on the bed. That, Chevy if you're listening, was a class move! That thing is dumb, it has no utility, it messes with lights and such, and it's just heavy and dumb. It's only purpose is to look ************. It's not my preferred flavor of ************, but I have to acknowledge its badassery. I think that's proof positive that the Colorado is at least capable of having character.

One thing I was having a hard time reconciling as a positive or a negative with the Colorado was the fact that it's the preferred truck for fleets everywhere. This would be positive in that parts parts parts down the road, but negative in the context of 'standing out'. If that silly bar is enough to make it stand out, that puts that to rest. Again, not my cup of tea, but I would definitely find myself looking back at it as I walk from the parking lot into the store... I think if I got a Bison, which stands out a little, but only a little in that way, it would be marginal. It wouldn't take much to make it stand out further.

Another thing that came up in my conversation with my wife re: cars and character is leather seating (obviously it was a side note, but it came up and is relevant here). I had a '99 4Runner (pre-"the rules"), and it had a leather interior. That car didn't really have much to say for itself, but it had a manual transmission and a leather interior, and I liked being in it. I was working on making it fun and unique, but it was short lived (rolled at 5 mph in an ice storm due to insufficient tires). My BMW was similarly a very nice place to be in, and we both agree that the leather seats were part of that. I'm not saying it's a character element necessarily (though maybe it can be a contributing factor?), but being a nice place to be is a positive. I had previously been thinking of the leather as a negative, especially in a truck, because it's not going to be especially high quality leather (though neither was the leather in either the 4Runner or the BMW), and in a truck it'll likely just get dirty. Never mind the seam on the seat bolsters where upholstery always fails... I still can't tell if this is or isn't a character element... I'm leaning toward yes, and that would be a tick on the Colorado side of the equation.
 

spectre6000

Observer
At the end of the day and this discussion a "Vehicle", whatever type vehicle a person chooses to drive, for the vast majority of the driving public (Dare I say 98% or MORE) is just TRANSPORTATION. Nothing more!!! A means of conveyance to get from point A to Point B.

There are people who try to equate their success, their passions, their zest for life, their ego, their "Soul" and their desire for upward mobility through the vehicle they choose to drive yet when it's all said and done that vehicle is STILL JUST TRANSPORTATION!

Most folks will not admit it however the more "Unique" the vehicle you drive the better the chance you will be noticed and for heaven sakes remembered. And let's not forget photographed and posted on Istagram! Oh and then there are those that just have to show everyone everything they do, own and drive on Facebook. Why in the world would you think anyone else cares???

Kinda like my "Signature" below on my all posts.
ll,
I guess I must be one real Eqotistical SOB and I didn't even know it!!!

This is true ONLY if you derive your sense of self worth externally and/or derive no further utility from a vehicle. Nearly everyone here derives at least some secondary utility from their vehicle, or they wouldn't be here. Having lived for years in a region where keeping up with the Joneses was a full contact sport, I have a strong predilection against this. I find it disgusting, and nothing makes me want to leave a room faster than being stuck in a conversation with someone who is clearly of that mindset.

If you derive your sense of self worth internally, this perception of others noticing or what have you is of no importance. It doesn't blip the radar. Hell, if anything, I've had the opposite experience. See the photo I posted a page or two ago of my clapped out old bus next to the Aston Martin in the parking lot at the office. My peers did not think I was cool because I drove a bus. In fact, I once went to pick my boss up at the airport. He gave me the keys to his Range Rover before he left, and instructed me to pick him up in it. Whatever. When I went to start it to go get him a week or however long later, the battery was dead. I just took the bus. He was PISSED when I rolled up to the air port. Livid. He could not handle being seen getting into that thing. I told him, "Well, your battery is dead, and this thing started, so toss your bags in the back and let's go."

Similarly, when I was DDing my CUCV in full NATO camo, I was always out there fiddling with it with my shaved head and grungy clothes (I'm not going to get greasy in a suit and tie...). Some of my neighbors didn't know what to think...

If you need Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and whatever the new flavor is to feel good about yourself, I don't think this conversation applies. I haven't given that worldview any thought, and don't have much to say about it one way or the other.
 

AbleGuy

Officious Intermeddler
“Nearly everyone here derives at least some secondary utility from their vehicle, or they wouldn't be here.”

Yes, but we clearly are the chosen few, ?? the beings of a higher order, doncha know.?
 

AbleGuy

Officious Intermeddler
“If you need Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and whatever the new flavor is to feel good about yourself, I don't think this conversation applies.”

??????
 

AbleGuy

Officious Intermeddler
At the end of the day.....whatever type vehicle a person chooses to drive, for the vast majority of the driving public...is just TRANSPORTATION. Nothing more!!! A means of conveyance to get from point A to Point B.

There are people who try to equate their success, their passions, their zest for life, their ego, their "Soul" and their desire for upward mobility through the vehicle they choose to drive yet when it's all said and done that vehicle is STILL JUST TRANSPORTATION!

And sometimes a “cigar” is just a cigar...
 

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