Debate on Roadless Rule heats up again

[Scott Brady]

hear hear to that. Though not a registered Republican, my more conservative party has yet to put up someone in any race worth voting for.

None of the parties have put up someone worth voting for. I always feel like I am having to pick the least "evil" :smileeek:

 

[DesertRose]

quick edit.....stop posting while I am typing! Now I have more responses to make, and am already running late!!!!!! (insert sarcastic smilie of some sort here)

School? You don't need to go to class! It's much more educational to spend your time debating important issues here....with the rest of us who AREN'T WORKING.

Everything we learned that's useful we learned in the field or on the job....

Just kidding (well, not really) - don't tell whoever's paying your school fees I said that.

Seriously - I do know there are groups that abuse the courts and other legal maneuvers (bottling up precious resources and time with zillions of FOIAs, for example, is a common tactic) to get their way without going through the more democratic, and more difficult, process of stakeholder consultation and consensus. Consensus sucks for most of us because it means YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO OTHERS' POINTS OF VIEW AND BEND YOUR MIND A LITTLE!

Extremism on both ends of any debate often spoils the process for everyone - and gives things like reasonable conservation a bad name.

Oh well, back to work - we can't solve all the world's problems today.

better yet, it's the perfect time for a little backcountry drive in the Buenos Aires NWR - it's beautiful fall down here!

Roseann

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

I'm glad Goodtimes brought up the handicapped access issue, which he obviously means sincerely. I feel qualified to comment on it for two reasons. First, I've had three major knee operations in the course of my life, to attempt to repair a congenital leg and foot defect that doctors told my mother might prevent me from walking at all. Happily that wasn't the case, but I've spent over a cumulative year on crutches.

Second, a couple of years ago I wrote a story for Bugle, the magazine of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, about handicapped hunters. The hunters I spoke to ranged from those with one artificial foot to quadriplegics who still bowhunt using chair-mounted crossbows with releases operated by a mouth tube. These people deal with obstacles none of us can imagine, yet they were without exception less sorry for themselves than any group of humans I've ever met.

They were scattered all over the country and few knew each other personally. Yet every single one, at some point in our talk, brought up the same subject on his own: their outrage when physically able people use the "handicapped access" argument as a blatantly selfish ploy to avoid having to get off their own fat asses and walk somewhere. It was the only thing I heard any of them sound truly angry about. NONE of these guys expects society to build roads to give them access to every square inch of the country.

As an interesting aside, the advent of full-size trucks with extended cabs and reverse-opening doors has finally given handicapped outdoorsmen an escape from the standard wheelchair-accessible van. I met several who have well-prepared trucks with lifts that raise and lock their chairs into the cab.

 

[Ursidae69]

But I also believe that there should be resonable access to areas of significant interest. Not everyone is able to don a pack and head 30 miles into the wilderness to get there. What about the guy who lost his leg in a war? What about the person who has a birth defect preventing them from walking? Should they be automatically excluded from visiting certain sites, based on their disability?

I don't think the ADA should be any part of the debate regarding wilderness. There are many national parks that cater to those with disabilities where one can experience nature from their car or paved wheelchair accessible paths.

The public land is mandated by law to be multiple use. That includes recreation by foot, car, hunting, fishing, mineral extraction, oil extraction, logging, cattle grazing, wildlife and more I can't think of. It's difficult to manage all the interests because many of the interests negatively impact the others. I'd hate to be the decision maker in charge. They have zero budget for enforcement and no way to make everyone get along. All the parties hate each other and label each other nasty names and try to get corrupt politicians to send through bills to help their cause. Makes me sick, tragedy of the commons on grand scale.

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

It's okay, Chuck. Just take a deep breath.

 

[Ursidae69]

It's okay, Chuck. Just take a deep breath.

Sorry, I do get worked up easily these days... :wavey:

 

[datrupr]

I don't think cutting any new roads to get to places that aren't accessible to vehicle travel. I thin the roads that are here are enough. Perhaps too much. It is possible to close a couple of roads that lead literally to nowhere so they can be revegitated. I know this has been done on a few trails in Colorado. The primary problem IMO is getting the people who don't care about treading lightly and respecting some our nations historical treasures that aren't marked historical, i.e. mining camps, ghost towns, indian ruins, etc. If this kind of disregard and disrepect is eventually going to ruin the entire experience for those of us who do tread lightly, don't spray paint ruins, and don't dump our garbage out in the middle of the national forest. As I have stated in my last post, it ticks me off severely when I see this blatant disrespect for our environment and our nations history. Why would one want to spray paint their name on a ruin that dates back more than 100 years, and leave all of their beer bottles, cheeto's bags, and shotgun shells all over the forest floors? I enjoy being in the forests and seeing the ruins and exploring them. It brings me into a different state of mind and takes me back mentally to what it was like in this old mining camp or indian village and I am usually awe struck, and then I am taken back to reality and infuriated when I see "Bubba was here 12/19/04" spray painted on one of the ruin walls . And if I can not get there with my truck I see no problem with getting out and hiking to it if I want to get there badly enough. And on top of it all, I like to leave it as I found it so other people can possibly enjoy it in the same manner as I do. But I do not think any new roads need to be cut to get there.

And to Scott, I know what you mean, these days it is always about voting for the lesser of the evils.

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Funny, we JUST had two morons drive up our road (past the private property sign) to look around, then turn around and leave, tossing a fast food cup out the window. I watched them turn the corner of the road as they went, about two hundred yards away. I have a Rigby .275 that easily prints sub-two-inch groups at that distance . . .

 

[datrupr]

As I said before, people that do this should be shot on site, or at least beaten severely with a good wooden stock with a solid twelve guage attached. I get so angry when I see this. Part of the reason I take extra garbage bags on my adventures. However, I do not always participate in the practice of picking up everyone elses garbage, but I do try when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[goodtimes]

... I have a Rigby .275 that easily prints sub-two-inch groups at that distance . . .

Now now....no need to make a mess.

Chuck, you have some valid points, but I do think that access for handicapped people should be *A* consideration. Not *THE* consideration, but one of them. We should not make EVERY wilderness attraction handicap accessable, not even a majority of them. But I feel that every roughly geographical region should have some access for handicapped people. There should be places that someone can take their 95 year old father who is confined to a wheel chair, so they can enjoy nature without having to drag him across stumps, and rivers, and through heavy brush, etc. These area's don't need to be in the heart of a wilderness area...but they should not be overly-developed either. There are many places that fit the bill already, and my arguement is not that we should do this everywhere, but it is something that should be kept in mind as the debate about access continues.

One really annoying professor I had years ago brought up something that I have found quite enlightening, and in all honesty, quite helpful when dealing with many situations. It was during a philosophy class.....the idea of a "wall of ignorance". The exercise went something like this. You are given a arguement that you have to settle, your decision is final, no questions asked. The catch was, you had to put yourself on the other side of this theoretical wall, so when you made the decision, you had no idea which side of the arguement you were on. For example, my mother and I were debating the usefullness of daytime running lights. She thinks it is a crock of s#!t, and if people want them on, they can turn them on. So, I put her behind the "wall of ignorance" and asked her if it would be worth it if DRL's saved one single life. She said "no". Then I asked her if it would be worth it if that one life was mine. I still don't have a answer. So, Chuck, do you still think that there should be no handicap access? What about if you were the handicapped person?

datrupr, you are right. In many areas, there are too many roads already, and they could probably be thinned without inpeding access. But you have to be careful to maintain access....we don't want to lose it completely.

Roseann, should we open access to Manning camp via vehicle? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know the details as you appear to. You bring up horsepacking....not a bad idea for those unable to go in via foot. I in no way am suggesting we blindly open up access for vehicle travel to any historic spot. I just think that it needs to be considered, and debated. It may well be that opening it up will do more harm than good. I'm OK with that decision, as long as people on both sides of the arguement opened their minds to the possibility that the other side was right, and proceeded with a open mind. As for not needing to go to class....yea, well......considering that at this point I am paying my own way....I try not to miss any classes. They cost too much, and if I knew it all already, I wouldn't be spending $6,000/year to be able to sit in that little room and listen......

And finally to Scott.....yes, it always seems to be a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. Do you know what you call 10,000 lawyers (which 99% of politicians are) at the bottom of the sea?

--A good start!

Keep the opinions coming...this is a good thread.

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

I remember when Roseann and I went to pick up the Four-Wheel Popup camper for her truck at the factory in Sacramento. We left heading east, and wound up in a huge traffic jam in Lake Tahoe on a holiday, surrounded by thousands of short-tempered Californians pushing each other out of the way and honking because they were in a big hurry to RELAX, DAMMIT!

We got out of there and fled into Nevada. That night we camped where we pleased on some pretty well-used BLM land, with cows mooing in the background. Never been so happy to be around cows in our lives.

The point is, there is a huge cross-section of outdoor recreational opportunity available in the U.S., from the Tahoe/Yosemite/Yellowstone-type madness to Arctic National Wildlife Refuge-type isolation. Lots of places accessible to motor homes and those not fully mobile. The true wilderness experiences are the rarest and have been vanishing the quickest, so those are the ones that need the most diligent protection.

Incidentally, I know a sea kayaker with an artificial leg who paddled the entire west coast of the United States, solo. Access is what you make of it!

 

[DesertRose]

Now now....no need to make a mess.

Yes, especially since I came upon them just moments later, arriving home in my truck. I HATE cleaning up after Jonathan: "Honey, would you please stop leaving your dirty socks by the closet door and dead rednecks on the state road?" But at least we have a deep vertical mine shaft on our property.

:elkgrin:

I like the concept of Wall of Ignorance, although it reminds me too much of the endless collaborative conservation meetings I have had to chair, where what you talk about (everyone gets a say) happens (these are fascinating meetings where ranchers and environmentalists and birdwatchers and ORVers and scientists all tried to reach consensus without use of weapons): seemed to me that too often many of the participants appear to live permanently behind a wall of ignorance...

This whole discussion brings up a broader issue that I am very interested in: our (the human race's) concept of humans in the wilds. Once upon a time wild-lands and our home-lands were not separate, they were the same. "Civilization" has been separating us over millenia. Western religions have helped solidify the "dominion of man over Nature" such that now, so-called industrialists would have us strip it clean, and - keeping with the separation theme - even so-called environmentalists would have Wilderness be a place where we only visit, in awe.

In Africa, Jonathan and I have learned a lot about other cultures' attitudes about protected places, where humans have been on the land a helluva lot longer than here in the recently settled Northern lats.

Humans and nature are still one-in-same in Africa, but they are starting to have the same conflicts we have here, much of it caused by poverty and the growing schism between wealthy visitors who are WESTERNERS and who want to see "pristine nature" (which may or may not exist) and the people who still must make their living from the land and don't see themselves as separate from it. These aren't recreational-use debates: they are literally life and death debates. Gives one perspective....

Ack - someone stop me, please. It's Friday, and I must stop using this computer now!! :wavey:

Have a great weekend.

Roseann

 

[Scott Brady]

If this kind of disregard and disrepect is eventually going to ruin the entire experience for those of us who do tread lightly, don't spray paint ruins, and don't dump our garbage out in the middle of the national forest.

It already has...

It breaks my heart to see the condition of historical places that have been damaged, looted over the last 10 years in AZ.

 

[Scott Brady]

Funny, we JUST had two morons drive up our road (past the private property sign) to look around, then turn around and leave, tossing a fast food cup out the window. I watched them turn the corner of the road as they went, about two hundred yards away. I have a Rigby .275 that easily prints sub-two-inch groups at that distance . . .

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

If you run, you'll only die tired . . .