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[Kaisen]

Nowadays the numbers are about 40% and 30% respectively.

Note my "over operating range" disclaimer. Not peak, static numbers

However, we agree that there is a 5-10% delta, with the advantage to diesel

 

[haven]

The Ram Promaster van configuration pages are available now. Choose from 1500, 2500 and 3500 models. The Promaster is available as a cutaway cab, too. Prices start around $28K, with tons of options.

The base Promaster van uses Chrysler's 3.6L V6 gasoline engine and 6 speed automatic transmission. A four cylinder 3.0L diesel is available for $4000 extra. Note this is not the V6 diesel found in the Grand Cherokee and Ram 1500 pickup.

This web page has links to the configuration pages for the Promaster models.
http://www.ramtrucks.com/hostc/bmo/CUT201400/models.do

 

[1911]

People who own VOLTs buy a lot less gasoline, and it cost most people a lot less to drive on electricity then what their gas bill on a comparable car would cost.

A large percentage of the cost differential is attributable to taxes. It varies from state to state, but on average across the U.S. consumers are paying 48.8 cents per gallon for gasoline and 54.4 cents per gallon for diesel in federal, state, and local taxes. Electricity, CNG, propane, and etc. do not yet have any road taxes on them - but once electric and/or CNG vehicles reach some critical mass of noticeable usage, it will be irresistible for governments at all levels to get their insatiably greedy fingers on those too, so enjoy your temporary tax holiday while you can.

 

[doug720]

I have been seeing these for the last year or so during durability testing. They are a Fiat euro model.

I would have to wait and see on the quality before I would take a leap on one these...

Doug

The Ram Promaster van configuration pages are available now. Choose from 1500, 2500 and 3500 models. The Promaster is available as a cutaway cab, too. Prices start around $28K, with tons of options.

The base Promaster van uses Chrysler's 3.6L V6 gasoline engine and 6 speed automatic transmission. A four cylinder 3.0L diesel is available for $4000 extra. Note this is not the V6 diesel found in the Grand Cherokee and Ram 1500 pickup.

This web page has links to the configuration pages for the Promaster models.
http://www.ramtrucks.com/hostc/bmo/CUT201400/models.do

 

[Kaisen]

A large percentage of the cost differential is attributable to taxes. It varies from state to state, but on average across the U.S. consumers are paying 48.8 cents per gallon for gasoline and 54.4 cents per gallon for diesel in federal, state, and local taxes. Electricity, CNG, propane, and etc. do not yet have any road taxes on them - but once electric and/or CNG vehicles reach some critical mass of noticeable usage, it will be irresistible for governments at all levels to get their insatiably greedy fingers on those too, so enjoy your temporary tax holiday while you can.

The Federal road taxes are the big difference. There are certainly taxes on electricity, but not those specific to road-use. I'm sure it's coming.

Still, a gallon of pure 87 octane gasoline holds the same energy as 33.7KwH of electricity, and electric motors are much more efficient at putting that power to the road, and not wasting a large percentage as heat and sound. So even if a gallon of pure gasoline (not ethanol blended) cost the same as 33.7KwH of electricity, the electric car would have a substantial advantage in costs-per-mile. An electric (or PHEV or EREV) car uses that energy more efficiently..... a Tesla S, for example, is officially rated at 36 KwH/100 miles. If 33.7 KwH equals a gallon of gasoline, that's the equivalent of 94 mpg....they call it mpge. A Chevy VOLT is officially rated at 98 mpge and a Chevy Spark at 119 mpge.

Right now, in my area, a gallon of 90% gasoline / 10% ethanol costs $3.70 per gallon. My daytime retail electricity rate is $0.0675 per KwH, so 33 KwH costs $2.23 at retail (at the meter, peak rates). Even stripped of taxes, a gallon of gasoline is more than $2.23 per gallon.

Take the cheaper energy and the more efficient application of that energy, and you have big savings. Since we were talking about the VOLT, here's the math:
In the real world, the VOLT takes a 12.8 KwH charge (including all losses) from full depletion to full charge, and that charge lasts approximately 35 miles in real world use.
Locally (peak-rate $0.0675), that 12.8 KwH 'fill' would cost $0.87
Locally (currently $3.70/gal), that $0.87 would buy 0.24 gallons of gasoline.
If it takes .24 gallons to drive 35 miles, that's 145 mpge.... in other words, a gasoline powered car would have to average 145mpg to have the same fuel costs per mile
Can you think of a 3,700 pound car with 275 lb-ft of torque that averages 145mpg? How about 1/2 that? 1/3 that? Even a diesel? A hybrid?

 

[Dan Grec]

A four cylinder 3.0L diesel is available for $4000 extra. Note this is not the V6 diesel found in the Grand Cherokee and Ram 1500 pickup.

How very interesting.

Does anyone have specs on that engine? (I can't find anything)
I have to assume it's lighter than the 3.0 V6 in the GC and RAM 1500.

Possibly the diesel for the Wrangler...?

-Dan

EDIT: Also, the fact it comes with a 6-speed standard trans is a good thing.. maybe it makes quite a bit less than 405 ft. lbs. so they found a trans/clutch combination to handle it.

 

[Kaisen]

How very interesting.

Does anyone have specs on that engine? (I can't find anything)
I have to assume it's lighter than the 3.0 V6 in the GC and RAM 1500.

Iveco F1CE3481E
2,999 cc inline four
177hp @ 3,500 rpm
300lb-ft @1,400 rpm

http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/Models/Ducato_Goods_Transport#pageBlock02
I wouldn't assume that it is lighter or more compact than the VM 3.0L V6

 

[LR Max]

I've rented a number of Chevy Cruzes in the past year. I can tell you right now that if I were in the market for a new, small, car, I wouldn't consider anything from chevy that didn't AT LEAST have the LTZ package. That in itself makes a huge difference, especially when you get in the car and sit in there for 3 hours.

That said, The VW jetta TDI is the "benchmark". I love the VW engine, I hate the rest of the car. Many of my friends have older VWs (bugs and jettas) and every last one of them is falling apart. Seriously, the build quality of my 1997 Chevy Lumina is better. The newer VWs are completely awesome, including the wagon (the wagon + TDI + 6 speed manual is pretty baller). However I'm still not sold on long term quality from them.

The Cruze definitely is a value minded vehicle. The ones with the turbo gas engines are horrible...why you would say its ok to put 87 octane in a car with a turbo is beyond me. My friend who worked at Hertz said that EVERY turbo Cruze was recalled because they were blowing turbos at like, 5k or whatever and killing the engine.

An issue I have is their compatibility with biodiesel. Long story short, there is a biodiesel station open near me. Typically has good prices on biodiesel. Would be quite nice to fill up with that, especially since it is 2 miles from my casa. The DEP thing is annoying but not the end of the world. Just pick up a couple gallons when coming into the city at a truck stop during one road trip.

Along with the rest of America, I am into Hyundais now. However the diesel Cruze might be something to seriously consider if I keep having this insanely long commutes. Would like to get a manual, then the thing would be REALLY peppy!

 

[1911]

The Federal road taxes are the big difference. There are certainly taxes on electricity, but not those specific to road-use. I'm sure it's coming.

Still, a gallon of pure 87 octane gasoline holds the same energy as 33.7KwH of electricity, and electric motors are much more efficient at putting that power to the road, and not wasting a large percentage as heat and sound. So even if a gallon of pure gasoline (not ethanol blended) cost the same as 33.7KwH of electricity, the electric car would have a substantial advantage in costs-per-mile. An electric (or PHEV or EREV) car uses that energy more efficiently..... a Tesla S, for example, is officially rated at 36 KwH/100 miles. If 33.7 KwH equals a gallon of gasoline, that's the equivalent of 94 mpg....they call it mpge. A Chevy VOLT is officially rated at 98 mpge and a Chevy Spark at 119 mpge.

Right now, in my area, a gallon of 90% gasoline / 10% ethanol costs $3.70 per gallon. My daytime retail electricity rate is $0.0675 per KwH, so 33 KwH costs $2.23 at retail (at the meter, peak rates). Even stripped of taxes, a gallon of gasoline is more than $2.23 per gallon.

Take the cheaper energy and the more efficient application of that energy, and you have big savings. Since we were talking about the VOLT, here's the math:
In the real world, the VOLT takes a 12.8 KwH charge (including all losses) from full depletion to full charge, and that charge lasts approximately 35 miles in real world use.
Locally (peak-rate $0.0675), that 12.8 KwH 'fill' would cost $0.87
Locally (currently $3.70/gal), that $0.87 would buy 0.24 gallons of gasoline.
If it takes .24 gallons to drive 35 miles, that's 145 mpge.... in other words, a gasoline powered car would have to average 145mpg to have the same fuel costs per mile

Hard to argue with your math. FWIW I'm not arguing against electric cars per se, I just think the differential between gas/diesel and electric will narrow over time, primarily because of increased taxes. But also because if everyone did buy an electric car, electricity demand would skyrocket, and electric rates would go up because we'd have to buy and burn that much more fossil fuels to generate the electricity.

Can you think of a 3,700 pound car with 275 lb-ft of torque that averages 145mpg? How about 1/2 that? 1/3 that? Even a diesel?

Well, the VW Jetta TDI can get 1/3 of that (mine does), but it only puts out 236 ft-lbs of torque. That's still the big trade-off, efficiency and economy versus range and practicality of charging versus filling. Using the Jetta TDI again as an example, I can get more than 650 miles on a single tank of fuel. Like the cost of operating, I believe this differential will narrow too as electric cars get better range and diesels get more efficient. Obviously electric car range is going to have to increase exponentially before they make any significant market penetration.

 

[Regcabguy]

$0.72/gal taxes now in Ca. Thanks to our conservation efforts revenue was down so the Board of Equalization(nice name,eh?) voted to raise the taxes. Higher than NY now.
Same with electricity. More solar=less revenue so raise that too.

 

[Kaisen]

Hard to argue with your math. FWIW I'm not arguing against electric cars per se, I just think the differential between gas/diesel and electric will narrow over time, primarily because of increased taxes. But also because if everyone did buy an electric car, electricity demand would skyrocket, and electric rates would go up because we'd have to buy and burn that much more fossil fuels to generate the electricity.

Not arguing your larger points, but a good portion of electricity is (and/or can be) generated without using fossil fuels. If demand goes up, prices will go up, at least in the short term.

However, if we did nothing fossil fuel prices will go up too. The demand may be shrinking, but supplies are too. Or at the 'easy' supplies. We know where lots of oil is, but it's expensive to get to.

Well, the VW Jetta TDI can get 1/3 of that (mine does), but it only puts out 236 ft-lbs of torque. That's still the big trade-off, efficiency and economy versus range and practicality of charging versus filling. Using the Jetta TDI again as an example, I can get more than 650 miles on a single tank of fuel. Like the cost of operating, I believe this differential will narrow too as electric cars get better range and diesels get more efficient. Obviously electric car range is going to have to increase exponentially before they make any significant market penetration.

Jetta TDI's combined EPA rating is 34 mpg, and diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline. So it's four times as expensive per mile as a VOLT using electricity.

Remember, a VOLT can travel 380 miles before needing gasoline or electricity. I don't think that's a range issue at all.
Even when operating on gasoline only (no EV) the VOLT is rated 37 mpg combined...still better than the Jetta TDI.
But remember that 85% of Americans drive less than 35 miles per day, so most days would be electric-only.
Pure electric vehicles with no back-up have their limitations, so I largely agree with your point.

 

[1911]

Not arguing your larger points, but a good portion of electricity is (and/or can be) generated without using fossil fuels.

http://www.mapawatt.com/2010/11/29/where-does-us-electricity-come

71% of all electricity generated in the U.S. currently comes from fossil fuels. We are not building any more nuclear reactors or hydroelectric dams. Solar accounts for a whopping 3/100ths of a single percent and is not growing at all (it is uneconomical). Biomass and geothermal together make up almost 8/10ths of one percent, and are not growing. The only alternative energy that is growing at all is wind power, but it only contributes 2% of the total needed and must be backed-up on the grid by a consistent fuel i.e. natural gas and coal, because the wind doesn't blow all the time.

However, if we did nothing fossil fuel prices will go up too. The demand may be shrinking, but supplies are too. Or at the 'easy' supplies. We know where lots of oil is, but it's expensive to get to.

We have done such a good job of finding vast new reserves of natural gas here in the U.S. that supply has far outstripped demand and the price of natural gas has fallen by 66% since 2008.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nus_a.htm We have enough domestic reserves of natural gas to last more than 100 years.

The same thing is happening with crude oil too. U.S. domestic production has soared in the last five years; we're producing more now then we were 20 years ago, thanks to the big shale oil plays. The price of crude oil was falling until the latest turmoil in Egypt.

Jetta TDI's combined EPA rating is 34 mpg, and diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline. So it's four times as expensive per mile as a VOLT using electricity.

A single data point only admittedly, but my 2010 Jetta TDI gets 42+ mpg around town and 49 mpg on the highway, and I don't "hypermile" it or drive it any differently than my other cars and trucks.

Remember, a VOLT can travel 380 miles before needing gasoline or electricity. I don't think that's a range issue at all.

That is significantly better than what I've heard; I didn't know they had improved so much.

Even when operating on gasoline only (no EV) the VOLT is rated 37 mpg combined...still better than the Jetta TDI.

Again, my personal experience (only) does not prove this out, but maybe I got the only good TDI.

But remember that 85% of Americans drive less than 35 miles per day, so most days would be electric-only.
Pure electric vehicles with no back-up have their limitations, so I largely agree with your point.

I hope electric cars work out for lots of folks. They'll have a harder time penetrating the market out west, where our distances between cities is quite a bit larger than the metro areas of the east and left coasts. When consumer demand without tax incentives and etc. is sufficient to drive the market on its own merits, then we'll really have something I believe, but we're not there yet.

 

[Redline]

snip...

A single data point only admittedly, but my 2010 Jetta TDI gets 42+ mpg around town and 49 mpg on the highway, and I don't "hypermile" it or drive it any differently than my other cars and trucks.

As you probably know, the diesel VWs often exceed their EPA rated MPG, particularly the manual transmission cars. There are many examples of this, so there is more than one data point available. Nice conversation and tech gentlemen.

For us, we still like the diesels... so as we thought for years, last week we finally replaced our old VW TDI with a new VW TDI. Much more torque & HP than the old car, probably a bit less fuel economy, but I bet we still top 40 MPG much of the time.

 

[Ryanmb21]

.......last week we finally replaced our old VW TDI with a new VW TDI. Much more torque & HP than the old car, probably a bit less fuel economy, but I bet we still top 40 MPG much of the time.

Jetta wagon or passat? Congrats!

 

[Dan Grec]

We are not building any more nuclear reactors......

Actually, the US is building new reactors for the first time in 30 years.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...lding-first-nuclear-reactors-in-30-years.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_States#2012

-Dan