Do you feel the need to be upset when you encounter an armed camper in the woods?

jeep-N-montero

Expedition Leader
"I really don't care if someone is armed. It's the people who are shooting irresponsibly that annoy me."

- I second this sentiment. I also agree with Scott Brady that there should be some sort of proficiency requirement. As soon as my daughters were old enough to handle a pistol, I trained them on how to handle one correctly. This also extended to rifles. I believe that you have a responsibility to teach your children about gun safety, especially if you have guns in your house, and I'm not opposed to training classes. I certified with the NRA when I was twelve, and I carry those lessons to this day.

About a month ago, I was boating on a local lake with my wife. We anchored in the mouth of a cove that is a favorite with the off-road party crowd. We were too tired to move when the partiers showed up, so we just went back to bed. Right about dawn, one of the group steps away from the crowd, raises his pistol in my general direction and starts shooting at a raft of loons. Of course, with such a flat trajectory, the projectiles were ricocheting right by us, I don't know how we did not take a bullet. That is the kind of person that causes problems for everybody else and should be restricted from gun use. I hope the sheriff I called expressed that sentiment to the idiot. Me, I left the cove immediately, not interested in a confrontation with an armed idiot.

I can't help but think there is a shared responsibility of error here, I say this because although they should not be doing stupid drunk idiot stuff such as shooting at birds, you knowingly anchored in a place you had previous knowledge as being a party spot. Do you see how you could have prevented putting your lives in danger with a little forethought?
 

WeLikeCamping

Explorer
Jeep-N-Montero, it is in a no-shooting area, and it is well-signed, so I would assume the best of my fellow humans to at least adhere to the laws. Besides, partying does not immediately mean random shooting of guns, at least in my experience. So, did I knowingly put myself in danger? I would argue not, however, I would agree that anchoring within shooting range of near drunken idiots is not the smartest thing to do. Unfortunately, if you were familiar with Saguaro Lake, you would realize that there are a variety of large coves along this section of the lake, the channel is right offshore and used by every boater that wants to get from one part of the lake to another. There is even a dock for boat-camping, that also is in direct line-of-fire for anybody shooting from shore. So, to follow your argument, boaters should not use the lake, because there is a risk of getting shot by a drunken idiot?

on second thought, really????? Is it your assertion that shooting a pistol at birds clearly outside the range of that weapon, and across a popular and well-used lake, firing not just at the cove entrance, but also directly into the path of unwary boaters using the channel appropriately, is an expected or acceptable behavior?
 
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jeep-N-montero

Expedition Leader
Jeep-N-Montero, it is in a no-shooting area, and it is well-signed, so I would assume the best of my fellow humans to at least adhere to the laws. Besides, partying does not immediately mean random shooting of guns, at least in my experience. So, did I knowingly put myself in danger? I would argue not, however, I would agree that anchoring within shooting range of near drunken idiots is not the smartest thing to do. Unfortunately, if you were familiar with Saguaro Lake, you would realize that there are a variety of large coves along this section of the lake, the channel is right offshore and used by every boater that wants to get from one part of the lake to another. There is even a dock for boat-camping, that also is in direct line-of-fire for anybody shooting from shore. So, to follow your argument, boaters should not use the lake, because there is a risk of getting shot by a drunken idiot?

on second thought, really????? Is it your assertion that shooting a pistol at birds clearly outside the range of that weapon, and across a popular and well-used lake, firing not just at the cove entrance, but also directly into the path of unwary boaters using the channel appropriately, is an expected or acceptable behavior?

Use your common sense and/or deductive reasoning and the answer will be obvious, as the question was already answered.
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
You should be ok camping there without some ************** shooting over your head. Problem is no laws would have stopped those guys from doing so.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
You certainly make a valid point. Not that I necessarily advocate more regulation, but I still find it surprising that carrying a pistol does not require a minimum level of proficiency and a background check. I am 100% pro 2nd amendment, but there should be an expectation of proficiency. I would like to know that if I see a guy carrying a gun that he has been through training and a background check.

Obviously, this can't happen because most gun owners (myself included) do not trust the intentions of the anti-gun community. If there was a consensus that the law abiding will not lose rights, but must show proficiency and prove that they are law abiding, I see that as 100% reasonable. I prefered the old CCW requirements in AZ. If someone was carrying concealed, they were either LEO or had passed a two day course, a test and a range qualification. Now any idiot can shove a pistol in their pocket. . .

And that right there is the heart of the issue. If I remember correctly, Scott has some military background. I think many others with that kind of experience, myself included, are inclined to see some sort of proficiency or training associated with a CCW or everyday carry, simply due to our own training backgrounds and upbringings. Training doesn't necessarily make a dumb person wise or make a bad person good, but it does instill certain fundamental techniques and employment principles that can enable safe firearm handling.

The problem with even a common-sense measure like that is in the current political environment there is a "if you give an inch, they'll take a mile" mentality in the pro-2nd amendment camp. And given recent measures to restrict firearm/accessory access (attempted ATF ammo ban, proposed "assault weapons" and magazines restrictions at the state and federal level, closing the trust loophole, ect.) the paranoia on the pro-2nd amendment side isn't totally unfounded.

In the recent spate of proposed executive orders on gun control, I hear more rules related to regulating lawful and licensed firearm dealers and customers than I've heard on targeting and punishing criminals. Every time a shooting spree happens, the gun control conversation always turns to how we need to restrict the access and inventory of lawful firearm owners....despite the fact that the lawful firearm ownership is not the underlying cause for these shooting sprees in the first place.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
The problem with even a common-sense measure like that is in the current political environment there is a "if you give an inch, they'll take a mile" mentality in the pro-2nd amendment camp. And given recent measures to restrict firearm/accessory access (attempted ATF ammo ban, proposed "assault weapons" and magazines restrictions at the state and federal level, closing the trust loophole, ect.) the paranoia on the pro-2nd amendment side isn't totally unfounded.

And if you ever look into firearm regulations of the Great White North, that's exactly what happened - inch by inch, our government has implemented some of the most RETARDED rules ever.

I'm all for firearms safety, but when laws are clearly made by clueless politicians, based purely on emotion, that's when trust is breached. Ask yourself how the follow can help ensure a safer society:

- magazine capacity, all semiauto centerfire rifle magazine have to be 5 rds. Okay, sounds reasonable for sporting purposes, but:

- you can have a 100 rdn drum magazine, but must have a little rivet at 5.1 rds. You think this would stop ANY criminals? Or would it only bother law abiding range shooters?

- capacity is based on parent caliber. So, I can legally squeeze 13 rds of .223 into a 5-rd .50 beauwolf magazine, in an AR. But if I dare lose the rivet on a 10 rd .223 magazine, I face jail time.

- many guns are outlawed (prohibited status) by "looks" and how scary they sound, and how often they appear in pop culture. You can't have an AK47, or a Barret M82, or Steyr AUG, but you can have a CZ-858, any other 50 BMG, and any other bullpup.

- but wait, a bunch of early CZ-858 owners got screwed, and had theirs confiscated by the RCMP (our fed police) because the feds suddenly changed their minds, and decided it too, was scary looking. Oh, but then a couple years later they changed their minds, so now we can own them again. But if you were screwed before, too bad, they won't unscrew you...

- this was all possible due to our liberal government in the early 90's decided every long gun has to be registered. Normally, I'm NOT against such a thing, as I have no problems with registration. But after the RCMP absolutely, and in my opinion, criminally abused the registry to confiscate private property with no compensation, you think I (and many others) would ever support it again? Luckily this was abolished couple years ago.

- long guns (non-restricted) start at barrel length of 18.5", which means you can shoot them anywhere legal for shooting. Oh, but wait, if you have an AR with 20" they are still restricted, like handguns (range only), because they "look too scary".

- and again, I can have a Norinco bullpup with 18.6" barrel, and 13 rds in a .50 Beauwolf magazine, and walk all over the woods.

- no handgun carry in the wilderness for protection against wildlife. Makes no sense to me, I think it's much less nerving to anti-gun folks if I have a 44 mag hidden inside my jacket, than a big-*** rifle strapped on my back.

And the list goes on and on. Point is, myself, like many law abiding firearm owners, have zero issues with training, registration, and general safe rules / regulations to ensure lawful use of firearms. Because we USED to trust our government. But this level of trust goes BOTH ways, and our government needs to build back that trust if they want us to trust them again.

When they abuse the system, and use their power to make emotional, non-scientific laws that only affects lawful owners, and not criminals, that's when all trust is lost, and we end up in a defensive stance. For us up north, I can guaranty if they ever re-instate the long gun registry, VERY few of us would give in our rifles. Most would rather bury them in their backyards, because they know the next day, their lawful rifles would get confiscated because it appeared in a new movie where the terrorist used it to commit a mass shooting...
 

SigSense

Adventurer
To your point, I agree, I don't think most law abiding owners or potential owners would mind a minimum proficiency test at a range. Here in CA, for handguns anyway, we have a simple test. It's pretty common sense safety type stuff and I think has to be renewed every 5 years. CCW is still pretty strict until a legal case in appeals is resolved. It does require a 2 day class.

I have an issue with a minimum shooting proficiency test. Reason? Is there a minimum proficiency test required to vote? Is a minimum proficiency test required to exercise free speech? The 2nd Amendment is factually the only right described as non-infringeable. When America requires every citizen to take a test to exercise ALL their rights, then I'll gladly take a simple proficiency test to handle my weapons. If I have to pay a fee and take a test to exercise a RIGHT (like some cities/states with concealed carry/gun ownership), that Right is denied. It used to be called a poll tax.........
 

SigSense

Adventurer
Sure. I discuss the 2A with many people and point this out to them. Those that are typically anti-gun/pro gun-control, have a hissy fit when I ask them if they think every American should get a license in order to post anything on the internet (Free Speech, and the 1st Amendment). They just don't get the parallels involved with the other rights until you personalize it in such a manner.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
I have an issue with a minimum shooting proficiency test. Reason? Is there a minimum proficiency test required to vote? Is a minimum proficiency test required to exercise free speech? The 2nd Amendment is factually the only right described as non-infringeable. When America requires every citizen to take a test to exercise ALL their rights, then I'll gladly take a simple proficiency test to handle my weapons. If I have to pay a fee and take a test to exercise a RIGHT (like some cities/states with concealed carry/gun ownership), that Right is denied. It used to be called a poll tax.........

I bet you would fail the test taken by people trying to become US Citizens. I know 89% of my college class failed it when we took it. I passed but barely. So yes there actually is a test, you simply were lucky enough to be born here and never had to do anything to be a US Citizen.
 

mezmochill

Is outside
Sure. I discuss the 2A with many people and point this out to them. Those that are typically anti-gun/pro gun-control, have a hissy fit when I ask them if they think every American should get a license in order to post anything on the internet (Free Speech, and the 1st Amendment). They just don't get the parallels involved with the other rights until you personalize it in such a manner.

As you look around this complex little world of ours, you may find it's not as simple as you would like it to be.
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
I bet you would fail the test taken by people trying to become US Citizens. I know 89% of my college class failed it when we took it. I passed but barely. So yes there actually is a test, you simply were lucky enough to be born here and never had to do anything to be a US Citizen.

The test is to BECOME a citizen, it has nothing to do with this discussion.
 

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