dzzz
™
This project seeks publicity as an "open source build". I believe fair criticism is appropriate, as it is with commercial products.
Eco-Roamer - F650 based Expedition Vehicle
- Thread starter jayshapiro
- Start date
This project seeks publicity as an "open source build". I believe fair criticism is appropriate, as it is with commercial products.
D
Deleted member 9101
Guest
I couldn't agree more. It was an awesome build, but too much camper on too little of truck.
jesusgatos
Explorer
Agree. An open-source project needs to be open to constructive criticism, and I'd bet that Jay is more interested in getting these issues sorted out than anybody. It's his family onboard, and he's undoubtably aware of the problem. Not like we're attacking him personally or anything. That monster just looks like a handful to drive and I'd be pissed if he swerved over into my lane.
dzzz
™
Isn't an F650 stock a 26K lb GVWR truck?
Well anyways, the truck can probably be made safe whatever the weight. Size has advantages with a family. Can't drive out on the beach with Jack probably. But not wanting to kill your kids due to confined space is priceless. Personally I wouldn't go "expo" with more than two regular travelers. But I understand the desire to do that.
Well anyways, the truck can probably be made safe whatever the weight. Size has advantages with a family. Can't drive out on the beach with Jack probably. But not wanting to kill your kids due to confined space is priceless. Personally I wouldn't go "expo" with more than two regular travelers. But I understand the desire to do that.
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shovelbill
Observer
i didn't see this thread from the beginning so at this point it's like monday morning quarter backing on my part. i also didn't comment to "poke fun" at Jay, i just wanted to bring some food for thought. to qualify my remarks i must say that i do have many years experience in the towing and recovery field as a professional heavy tow operator......i've seen plenty of stuff.
i see many people that upgrade their K5 Blazers with 1 ton axles, big motors and tires and think they can safely tow trailers that would challenge the ability of a 1 ton crew cab........no amount of "beef will change the wheelbase.
my K5 weighs in at 5K on a normal day......my GVWR is 6,200. if i put 1200 in the truck it's still at my cap, but it handles quite a bit different than normal....now put 1K in it and 200 on the roof.......damned scary, get the picture. add lift and big soft sidewalls and it would have absolutely no business on the road......this is only for an example.
perhaps the 650 was chosen for the ability to drive it without a CDL?
the differences in the 650/750 frames and axles need to be explored......super singles are nice when used in tandem, less lateral movement. i'd seriously consider calling Alcan and ask about a complete suspension SYSTEM for this rig. somewhere i read this truck carries 2,000+ pounds of water...is all that liquid in baffled tanks as low as possible?
edit: i just read how the frame and axles were upgraded.
i see many people that upgrade their K5 Blazers with 1 ton axles, big motors and tires and think they can safely tow trailers that would challenge the ability of a 1 ton crew cab........no amount of "beef will change the wheelbase.
my K5 weighs in at 5K on a normal day......my GVWR is 6,200. if i put 1200 in the truck it's still at my cap, but it handles quite a bit different than normal....now put 1K in it and 200 on the roof.......damned scary, get the picture. add lift and big soft sidewalls and it would have absolutely no business on the road......this is only for an example.
perhaps the 650 was chosen for the ability to drive it without a CDL?
the differences in the 650/750 frames and axles need to be explored......super singles are nice when used in tandem, less lateral movement. i'd seriously consider calling Alcan and ask about a complete suspension SYSTEM for this rig. somewhere i read this truck carries 2,000+ pounds of water...is all that liquid in baffled tanks as low as possible?
edit: i just read how the frame and axles were upgraded.
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dzzz
™
Since when is that a reason to delete a post?
I did a bit of research an Ecoroamer seems to be a 33-34K lbs. I don't know if it has air brakes. I assume the original GVWR was 26K. On some medium duty trucks there may be no physical difference between the 26K and 33K models.
I couldn't find many specs on the ecoroamer site, but I didn't spend much time looking. I would like to know how long it is. I think the whole issue of designing for a family is interesting.
bajajoaquin
Adventurer
I used to drive a 37' diesel pusher pretty regularly. It grossed at 33K or 36K, don't remember which. I was usually pulling a 27' race car trailer, too (yes, I know that put me over the length limit in California). No jake or other exhaust brake.
So I've had some experience with "amateur" driving of vehicles in that size range, and that level of sway is really scary. Like some of the others, I'd guess it's a combination of too much weight, and the weight too high.
So I've had some experience with "amateur" driving of vehicles in that size range, and that level of sway is really scary. Like some of the others, I'd guess it's a combination of too much weight, and the weight too high.
JRhetts
Adventurer
Off topic, but...
Joaquin, thanks. While I would not retract anything that I wrote, upon re-reading what I wrote did not seem to actively contribute to this somewhat diffuse thread.
I will reiterate my intended central point: I think that too many of US have tried to shoehorn too much weight and volume onto too limited a base vehicle. This is a recipe for eventual trouble. I am very glad that Jay only incurred damage to his vehicle and not to his family or other persons!!
After a number of years of flagrantly committing the aforementioned sin, I am personally deeply relieved that now my wife and I drive and explore in a vehicle that seems to have A LOT of engineering headroom.
Best Regards.
Joaquin, thanks. While I would not retract anything that I wrote, upon re-reading what I wrote did not seem to actively contribute to this somewhat diffuse thread.
I will reiterate my intended central point: I think that too many of US have tried to shoehorn too much weight and volume onto too limited a base vehicle. This is a recipe for eventual trouble. I am very glad that Jay only incurred damage to his vehicle and not to his family or other persons!!
After a number of years of flagrantly committing the aforementioned sin, I am personally deeply relieved that now my wife and I drive and explore in a vehicle that seems to have A LOT of engineering headroom.
Best Regards.
shovelbill
Observer
i found this in here, interesting suspension:
http://www.burdford.com/brochures/F-650_750.pdf
2005 F-650/F-750
Super Duty Chassis Cabs
Performance/Handling
July 2004
F-650/F-750
SD Chassis Cabs
Suspension Specifics
Front Suspensions
• Parabolic tapered-leaf front
suspension — Helps provide an
excellent balance of ride and
handling, as well as the ability
to handle the most demanding
applications
• Aeon® auxiliary springs — Recommended only for
applications requiring additional front roll stiffness, such as:
constantly loaded bucket trucks, digger derricks, refrigerated
vans and liquid load tank trucks. The auxiliary springs
provide additional stiffness without having to order higherrated
springs
Rear Suspensions
F-650/F-750 offers five multi-leaf and five air suspensions.
Multi-leaf suspensions range from 13,500 lbs. to 23,500 lbs.
Air suspensions range from 12,000 lbs. to 23,000 lbs.
Vari-Rate Multi-Leaf Rear Suspension
This suspension features a variable deflection rate. As the
spring bends under an increased load, the point where the
spring contacts a cam-type spring bracket moves toward the
center of the spring. This shortens the effective length of the
spring, making it stiffer as the load increases.
These suspensions may also include an integral progressiverate
Aeon® auxiliary spring.
• Under lightly loaded conditions, the auxiliary spring
contributes gradually to the spring rate, preventing a
noticeable decrease in ride quality
• Under heavily loaded conditions, the auxiliary spring
progressively increases the spring rate and contributes to
overall vehicle roll stiffness
• When the vehicle is empty, the auxiliary spring may be
in constant contact. However this is consistent with the
suspension’s design and will not decrease ride quality
• The rear rubber auxiliary spring should not be relocated
or removed
Rear Air Suspension
Air spring suspensions are valued for their smooth ride quality,
lightweight design and reduced NVH. They also allow the
driver to decrease height for loading and unloading. And the
air suspension is available with or without air brakes. They’re
a strong “why-buy” for carriers of beverages, electronic
equipment and other fragile cargo. Other rear air suspension
benefits include:
• Rubber bushings at all moving component interfaces to
dampen noise and vibration
• High lateral stiffness bushings for excellent handling
• Roll stiffness for control in turns and crosswinds
• Design helps minimize the number of components to wear
or require service
• Optimized height-control valve helps provide a more
constant suspension ride height
• Exclusive spring bushing design helps extend bushing life
and improve durability
http://www.burdford.com/brochures/F-650_750.pdf
2005 F-650/F-750
Super Duty Chassis Cabs
Performance/Handling
July 2004
F-650/F-750
SD Chassis Cabs
Suspension Specifics
Front Suspensions
• Parabolic tapered-leaf front
suspension — Helps provide an
excellent balance of ride and
handling, as well as the ability
to handle the most demanding
applications
• Aeon® auxiliary springs — Recommended only for
applications requiring additional front roll stiffness, such as:
constantly loaded bucket trucks, digger derricks, refrigerated
vans and liquid load tank trucks. The auxiliary springs
provide additional stiffness without having to order higherrated
springs
Rear Suspensions
F-650/F-750 offers five multi-leaf and five air suspensions.
Multi-leaf suspensions range from 13,500 lbs. to 23,500 lbs.
Air suspensions range from 12,000 lbs. to 23,000 lbs.
Vari-Rate Multi-Leaf Rear Suspension
This suspension features a variable deflection rate. As the
spring bends under an increased load, the point where the
spring contacts a cam-type spring bracket moves toward the
center of the spring. This shortens the effective length of the
spring, making it stiffer as the load increases.
These suspensions may also include an integral progressiverate
Aeon® auxiliary spring.
• Under lightly loaded conditions, the auxiliary spring
contributes gradually to the spring rate, preventing a
noticeable decrease in ride quality
• Under heavily loaded conditions, the auxiliary spring
progressively increases the spring rate and contributes to
overall vehicle roll stiffness
• When the vehicle is empty, the auxiliary spring may be
in constant contact. However this is consistent with the
suspension’s design and will not decrease ride quality
• The rear rubber auxiliary spring should not be relocated
or removed
Rear Air Suspension
Air spring suspensions are valued for their smooth ride quality,
lightweight design and reduced NVH. They also allow the
driver to decrease height for loading and unloading. And the
air suspension is available with or without air brakes. They’re
a strong “why-buy” for carriers of beverages, electronic
equipment and other fragile cargo. Other rear air suspension
benefits include:
• Rubber bushings at all moving component interfaces to
dampen noise and vibration
• High lateral stiffness bushings for excellent handling
• Roll stiffness for control in turns and crosswinds
• Design helps minimize the number of components to wear
or require service
• Optimized height-control valve helps provide a more
constant suspension ride height
• Exclusive spring bushing design helps extend bushing life
and improve durability
jayshapiro
Adventurer
Update and Response
Hi Guys,
Sorry for the delayed response. We are currently in South East Asia for a mix of business (work) and pleasure (trip to Kota Tinggi, Malaysia in our LC90).
I am delighted that this thread about the EcoRoamer continues to be of interest, education, and perhaps even entertainment for so many people. That was our original intention, so it's great to see it happening.
YES - as someone rightly pointed out, we made the project non-commercial and open-source, so that opens us up to all sorts of criticisms, both constructive and non, but we welcome it. As far as I'm concerned any dialogue and learnings that can come out of this are helpful, especially if they lead to better / more eco-friendly expedition vehicles.
As for the youTube video posted, and the comments that followed it, I'll give you my feedback as factually and non-defensively as I can considering some stranger is calling me an "idiot" on YouTube:
1 - Anyone who has driven that road out of the hills of Jerome down into Sedona will know that it is a "fun" road in any vehicle, let alone a 30,000lb off road vehicle as wide as the lane. Yes, I crossed the yellow line. Yes, I did it too close to some oncoming traffic and I do/did feel bad about it on that day and on several other tight mountain roads since.
2 - You will all be relieved to know that in 40,000+ miles we have never had any accident involving another vehicle, ever.
3 - That video was shot a year ago, when the truck was still running on the stock Ford shocks, which were underated for the vehicle and were crap. As documented earlier in this thread (with pics!) they had been replaced with King Shocks that took a LOT of the sway and roll out of the turns. They are now replaced again (since the spring problem) with even beefier units, so a lot of the roll you see in that video no longer exists.
4 - A stock F-650 is rated at 27,000lbs. However, this is not a stock F-650. The front leaf spring packs have been completely replaced and uprated. The chassis frame was completely sleeved with L-Channels. The rear suspension leaf springs and shocks have been completely replaced and uprated. And the "should be duallies" tires are actually 345 super singles. All of which put the rating of the truck WELL above the 34,000lbs fully loaded that it currently weighs. Throughout this process, I have taken the safety and strength of the truck as the NUMBER ONE priority for the vehicle. Afterall, it is my family riding around in it, and I have a strong urge not to kill them on some random mountain road.
5 - The wheelbase is 250", that is a stock offering for a F-650, the truck is not "too long" - total length is under 33ft, that's smaller than my dad's 1983 gas engined, hydraulic brakes, class A - which believe me, scares the crap out of me a lot more than my under-capacity F-650.
6 - I have a lot of respect for Joaquin Suave (and a lot of other posters on this thread) and don't think I was ever mean or dismissive of any opinions here. A lot of people disagreed with what we're doing, a lot loved it. But ALL of you have in some way contributed to our thinking about the project and a LOT of the elements of the design. Even those of you who only have 1 posting on Expo, but chose to use it to put up some nonsense YouTube video from some retired couple following me on a twisty mountain road.
Ooops, sorry. Was that out loud?
Anyhow...
The fact is, we've now been living in the EcoRoamer for a year. We've been in everything from the New Mexico desert, to the Arctic Circle. Overall it has performed brilliantly getting us up mountains and down small trails.
Yes, the rear right leaf spring snapped, and did so in a VERY dramatic fashion. However, having now pulled it off and done a pretty thorough inspection it looks as though it was a case of defect, combined with fatigue. The spring snapped exactly through the center pin hole, and my guys have confirmed ours is the 4th F-650 they have seen to snap in exactly the same spot.
We were well below the load rating for the spring, and have now replaced it with an even higher rated spring, together with a safety link.
Please keep the questions and debate coming. It's great to see.
Sawadee!
Jay.
Hi Guys,
Sorry for the delayed response. We are currently in South East Asia for a mix of business (work) and pleasure (trip to Kota Tinggi, Malaysia in our LC90).
I am delighted that this thread about the EcoRoamer continues to be of interest, education, and perhaps even entertainment for so many people. That was our original intention, so it's great to see it happening.
YES - as someone rightly pointed out, we made the project non-commercial and open-source, so that opens us up to all sorts of criticisms, both constructive and non, but we welcome it. As far as I'm concerned any dialogue and learnings that can come out of this are helpful, especially if they lead to better / more eco-friendly expedition vehicles.
As for the youTube video posted, and the comments that followed it, I'll give you my feedback as factually and non-defensively as I can considering some stranger is calling me an "idiot" on YouTube:
1 - Anyone who has driven that road out of the hills of Jerome down into Sedona will know that it is a "fun" road in any vehicle, let alone a 30,000lb off road vehicle as wide as the lane. Yes, I crossed the yellow line. Yes, I did it too close to some oncoming traffic and I do/did feel bad about it on that day and on several other tight mountain roads since.
2 - You will all be relieved to know that in 40,000+ miles we have never had any accident involving another vehicle, ever.
3 - That video was shot a year ago, when the truck was still running on the stock Ford shocks, which were underated for the vehicle and were crap. As documented earlier in this thread (with pics!) they had been replaced with King Shocks that took a LOT of the sway and roll out of the turns. They are now replaced again (since the spring problem) with even beefier units, so a lot of the roll you see in that video no longer exists.
4 - A stock F-650 is rated at 27,000lbs. However, this is not a stock F-650. The front leaf spring packs have been completely replaced and uprated. The chassis frame was completely sleeved with L-Channels. The rear suspension leaf springs and shocks have been completely replaced and uprated. And the "should be duallies" tires are actually 345 super singles. All of which put the rating of the truck WELL above the 34,000lbs fully loaded that it currently weighs. Throughout this process, I have taken the safety and strength of the truck as the NUMBER ONE priority for the vehicle. Afterall, it is my family riding around in it, and I have a strong urge not to kill them on some random mountain road.
5 - The wheelbase is 250", that is a stock offering for a F-650, the truck is not "too long" - total length is under 33ft, that's smaller than my dad's 1983 gas engined, hydraulic brakes, class A - which believe me, scares the crap out of me a lot more than my under-capacity F-650.
6 - I have a lot of respect for Joaquin Suave (and a lot of other posters on this thread) and don't think I was ever mean or dismissive of any opinions here. A lot of people disagreed with what we're doing, a lot loved it. But ALL of you have in some way contributed to our thinking about the project and a LOT of the elements of the design. Even those of you who only have 1 posting on Expo, but chose to use it to put up some nonsense YouTube video from some retired couple following me on a twisty mountain road.
Ooops, sorry. Was that out loud?
Anyhow...
The fact is, we've now been living in the EcoRoamer for a year. We've been in everything from the New Mexico desert, to the Arctic Circle. Overall it has performed brilliantly getting us up mountains and down small trails.
Yes, the rear right leaf spring snapped, and did so in a VERY dramatic fashion. However, having now pulled it off and done a pretty thorough inspection it looks as though it was a case of defect, combined with fatigue. The spring snapped exactly through the center pin hole, and my guys have confirmed ours is the 4th F-650 they have seen to snap in exactly the same spot.
We were well below the load rating for the spring, and have now replaced it with an even higher rated spring, together with a safety link.
Please keep the questions and debate coming. It's great to see.
Sawadee!
Jay.
Ford Prefect
Expedition Leader
Ditto.
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Good info on the suspension upgrades both front & rear...also good to know on the shock upgrades.
I think the real "kudos" should go to the fact that you & your family are actually out there doing the overlanding thing for real, no arm chair quarterbacking from a cubicle or day dreaming of a someday.
Regardless of what anyone else says you guys are actually living the dream and that counts for far more than anything else in my book.
I think the real "kudos" should go to the fact that you & your family are actually out there doing the overlanding thing for real, no arm chair quarterbacking from a cubicle or day dreaming of a someday.
Regardless of what anyone else says you guys are actually living the dream and that counts for far more than anything else in my book.
shovelbill
Observer
that is EXACTLY why i posted the link to the suspension. it looked to me that it snapped in the center and i wanted to see how it was designed.....
and for the record, i love this build and respect the work and research that went into it......there's a wrench for every nut, i don't think Ford's wrench (rear suspension design) fits this particular nut though......cheers Jay.