Electronics in a Expedition Land Rover

Chucaro

Adventurer
After reading so much about the possible problems with electronics I started to arrive to the conclusion that the problem is not the electronics but the luck of knowledge or information at reasonable cost that have the independent mechanics to perform the repairs or the owner/explorer
Are the software and diagnostic equipment ready available for independent mechanics at a reasonable cost and not at 5000 plus?
ref link: http://www.roverparts.com/Omitec/
Sooner or later conservative people like me will have to bite the bullet and get one vehicle (regardless of the type) which is going to be equip with electronics.
Even the mighty Unimog has electronics for a few years now (admittedly the after sales service for the Unimog is one of the best in the world)
I am looking forward for your inputs and ideas in how you will plan and equip a vehicle with electronics for a remote expedition.
Cheers
 

stevenmd

Expedition Leader
Excellent topic. I think the electronics are here to stay, unfortunately. We have broken down twice on longer camping trips in my old DI. Yeah, they were little things like a fuel pump one time and the belt tensioner the other time. But each time it really put a kink in the family fun we were having. While the failure may not have been electrical, it could very well have been.

I am lucky. Very lucky. Suzi (my wife) saw the look in my eye after driving a few 109's and friend's Camel Trophy 110. She then saw the cost of a "new" 110 (1993). I explained to her that it would be cheaper to buy a 109 and rebuild it from the ground up to the specs we want. Thus, we would have a "brand new" rover. She understands and is supportive of that endeavor, especially since neither of us are the mini-van type and we are a family of six.
 

Chucaro

Adventurer
I started with this topic because I am currently evaluating the type of my next "exploration rig" My current Disco Tdi300 and trailer or a Defender 130 & not trailer.
If I am going by my preferences only and not what the silly bureaucracy will impose on us regarding "green vehicles" I will go for a Defender 130 with a Isuzu 3.9 turbo diesel.
The problem is that a lot of money will be invested in this rig which I have not doubt will be better and cheaper than the new one to only be declared road unworthy in the future because of the pollution laws !
I am doing some research on the net regarding economic diagnostic systems available in the market but I do not know if they are the solution when we are in a remote area.
Some of the links are:
http://www.scantool.net/
http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/products.html
http://www.allabout4x4.com/diagnosticspage.html
 

shartzer

Observer
Well I just ordered one of these for my GM v6 Discovery conversion ( PLX Devices OBD Gauge ). The rover factory tach looks for an output from the alternator so I needed to install some type of aftermarket tachometer. This will do that and so much more. It simply plugs into the OBD and can read most of the engine signals and most imporant for me, can display a tachometer as a simple analog gauge (it doesn't have to be the silly looking 3D gauge as seen on their webpage).

So this will read trouble codes, ECM measured signals and calculated signals, and also can be set to have four different warning settings such as the engine temps gets to high, voltage to low, ect... All for $400. This product just came out and just started shipping. My buddy runs a business modifying drag Hondas and clued me in on them. When I get mine in I will try to post a review. It may not tell you exactly what is broken but it sure will help.
 

Mercedesrover

Explorer
Good subject.

You guys who take modern, gas-powered Land Rovers into the bush don't need to prove you courage to me in any other way!

Seriously, good obd2 scanners are pretty cheap and decent these days. A few hundred bucks should get you one that will cover most problems. Now, carrying all the spares to fix them is another story.

jim
 

stevenmd

Expedition Leader
When I had an OBDII landie I used a Davis CarChip from www.ambientweather.com for $99.00. It came with the software too. I could even reset the CEL with it. As long as I had access to the codes, I was fine.
 

Chucaro

Adventurer
stevenmd said:
When I had an OBDII landie I used a Davis CarChip from www.ambientweather.com for $99.00. It came with the software too. I could even reset the CEL with it. As long as I had access to the codes, I was fine.

Are you talking here about full diagnostic system ? or just a trip data logger?
 

stevenmd

Expedition Leader
Chucaro said:
Are you talking here about full diagnostic system ? or just a trip data logger?
Well... it read codes, could shut off the CEL, could log a bunch of data, etc. That's all I needed it for. I would think that you wouldn't need much more if you were somewhat mechanical. The process of elimination usually did the trick for me.
 

Chucaro

Adventurer
Just reading a thread in AURLO about diagnostics for a TD5 and apparently their unit is very good.
http://www.scantool.net/
I just wonder if it is going to be the solution for the "Explorer" of Patagonia, India or Africa and for that matter the far out back in Oz ?
Do we have in the Portal any record of drivers getting stranded in the middle of nowhere without solutions ?
Cheers
 

TeriAnn

Explorer
Automobile manufacturers prefer not to spend money on tows and warranty repairs. Consequently they have spend a great deal of money designing and refining EFI systems for reliability. A lot more effort goes into their EFI designs than goes into any after market design EFI system or EFI modification unit. I think that these days factory EFI systems are pretty efficient and reliable. So much so that most people forget to maintain them at their regular service intervals. My chief concern is that manufacturers have added more electrics then they need just for the sake of having electrical gadgets.

My Land Rover has been picking up additional wire since around 1992 when I ripped out all the 32 year old cut, spliced and taped wiring and started over with a new custom harness I designed to use an alternator instead of the generator, added a couple gauges and lights.

The next big step was when 1996-1997 when I converted my Land Rover into a Dormobile. I added a second battery and rear electrics to run a water pump, refrigerator, radio, and rear interior lights. Additionally I added a mains circuit. Plug the vehicle in and I have a duplex interior receptacle, 120V to the refrigerator and a permanently connected 3 stage battery charger on the second battery.

Then in 2006-2007 I made the really big step. I converted my 302 engine from a four barrel carb to 1991 Mustang EFI. I did this with a lot of trepidation and a lot of used parts (which was a mixed blessing)

Why did I go from a carb to a factory ODBI system????

  • To increase fuel efficiency A carb is a simple compromise with 3 fuel flow circuits to handle all situations at all altitudes and all temperatures. You jet a carb for worst case where you normally drive. It is almost always running richer than it needs to be and should be rejetted whenever you change altitude 3 or 4 thousand feet.

    My EFI system is constantly testing its environment (outside air temperature, engine temperature, air flow into the engine, altitude) and it is constantly retuning itself for best fuel efficiency and power. As I drive over a high mountain range my engine is tuned for the exact spot my Land Rover is driving.
  • For better off road manners EFI engines run a lot smoother at high angles, especially when crawling through rocks at very low speeds. The throttle response is much smoother with EFI at low RPMs.
  • For reliability Factory EFI systems are pretty reliable. Probably multiple times more reliable than after market EFI systems. My factory system self adjusts to handle such things as changes in components such as different cams. exhaust manifolds and different cylinder heads. It also self tunes to compensate for spark plug wear and sensor wear. The engine runs better longer. When a sensor goes too far off spec for the computer to compensate for it lets you know and switches into a limp home mode where it ignores most of the sensors. There are only two components that will kill my EFI engine that would not kill my carburettor engine: The computer and the throttle position sensor. Relays can be manually bypassed and the limp home mode works without everything else that would not also kill a carburettor engine. One nice thing about a stock American EFI system is that if something does break any auto parts store in North America will have a replacement either on the shelf or in their warehouse. Each of us has to decide how prudent we will be on the trial. We each do our own risk analysis and pack accordingly. That is often influenced by experience and space to fit spare parts that we hope to bring home unused. If you carry a spare fuel pump, it doesn't matter if it is a mechanical pump or a high pressure electric pump. The only thing's I've added to my spares list after the EFI conversion is 2 relays. I can bypass both if needed but replacements don't take up much space. Of course spare parts for things that have been changed were replaced with ones that work with the EFI system.
  • I trust OBDI more than OBDII ODBI diagnostics are a lot more primitive than OBDII diagnostics but OBDI retains the distributor. The distributorless system uses a crank angle sensor which sits level with the crank. Immerse a hot crank angle sensor into cold running water and the sensor has a tendency to break. That's why OBDII vehicles have such shallow factory wading specs. If I had a OBDII vehicle I would make sure there was always a recovery vehicle stationed at a crossing and I would carry a bag full of crank angle sensors.

Converting to EFI was a big jump for me as the school of hard knocks had forced me to learn carbs and I am comfortable with the technology. I didn't know a thing about EFI and the mass of wires and sensors intimidated me.

Before making the conversion I bought and studied two books covering the EFI system I planned to install and I studied several web sites. Once I added the EFI system the school of hard knocks taught me the folly of using used electrical components purchased off ebay. Before the engine was running right I had replaced all the used electrical components, including injectors except for the barometer. The used electrical components blessed me with the knowledge and experience to diagnose EFI problems. My latest lesson taught me that OBDI does not diagnose fuel pressure levels but can let you if the fuel pump is not getting voltage or if the fuel pump voltage is low.

One thing I have been doing religiously is creating and maintaining current drawings of my electrical system. I keep my own custom manual in the vehicle. It has a parts list for non stock consumable components, electrical system diagrams, PCV & vacuum lines, and fuel lines (I have three fuel tanks) and the EFI has a return line). I have found accurate schematics to be very handy when making the conversion and when trouble shooting the initial teething problems.

My bottom line thought about added electrical system complication is that it is OK so long as you can diagnose and fix any problem that might be expected to occur in the field, carry needed tools and prudent spares. If you don't understand your electrical system to the point of being able to diagnose and fix any problem likely to occur in the field which would leave you stranded, you should not be out in the trail with that vehicle.

Excrement happens out on the trail and the prudent person has leaned how to deal with it and get going again.
 

shartzer

Observer
Good write up Teri. I just wanted to add that a lot of the sensors added by the manufacturers need to be there for the diagnostics. In a modern vehicle if there is an engine failure that causes emissions levels to go up a certain percentage over the standard, the ECM must be able to diagnose this and light up the check engine light.

Also in modern vehicles some sensors are repetitive which allows the engine to run decent (not perfect) when one sensor fails. The best example of this is the manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP) and the mass air flow sensor (MAF). Generally vehicles that use both of these sensors need both to be certified for emissions in the US. But if you are in the field and one or the other brakes (not both) a modern ECM can sometimes recognize this and only use the working sensor and the engine runs good. It should have a check engine light but still drive decent. I know in my GM v6 I can disconnect the MAF and drive around OK, although not full power and smoothness. Then again I saw the Speed Channel show "Two Roads to Baja" and that FJ wouldn't start with a bad MAF. I don't work with Toyotas much so I don't know if there was another issue.

Don't get to hung up over OBD I vs. OBD II. They are just standards. OBD II is a standard that came out around 1996 that starts the rules if there is a malfunction that would effect emissions a certain amount then it needs to be diagnosed. There isn't a rule about specific engine hardware needed such as distributerless ignition. Although with the Land Rovers I guess it worked out this way in 1996 with the beginning of distributerless ignitions.

Good point on OEM quality over aftermarket also. A lot of people don’t realize just how difficult durability is in automotive applications and the car manufacturers and suppliers usually invest much more in this area. Just think how long your cars last vs. your cell phone. There is a big difference between consumer electronics and the automotive manufacturers.
 

revor

Explorer
TeriAnn makes a good point about the EFI. I've wheeled all sorts of trucks since the time of carburators and I'll have to say that the only thing that's ever left me stranded aside from no fuel or lack of traction is a Carb or a Set of points. Modern Electronic ignition and EFI systems are really quite robust, Bring a fuel pump and an ignition module and you have the spares you need. Even the ECU's are really tough, the One in my friends F150 wound up under water more than once and the GM version I had in my Jeep lived through many a rainstorm (not on purpose)
When we where down under racing (?) in the Outback challenge the entire Engine control system managed to end up under water (something about Norman wanting to be a U Boat commander) and it all worked fine afterwards. The Electric "goodies" that we hadn't time to remove from the truck gave us more fits than anything..Multi function relays and bizzare wiring standards made it difficult to troubleshoot but in the end we got it running only to realize we'd trashed the transmission (automatic)
 

Chucaro

Adventurer
We have interesting inputs here, and very good reading but related to petrol engines and not diesel.
The electronic (black box or computer) is much better now that in his early times here in Oz. The amount of failure of the "computers" in the outback of Australia it is because of extreme temperatures.
We still have some problems with the new diesels with extreme conditions here in Oz and I guess that for this reason the Toyota 4.2 old diesel or petrol engine is the king of the outback.
When I started the thread I should have asked for opinions in diesel engines, because this is the most popular engine for remote expeditions.
If we look at sites on the net we can see that the Land Rover engine Tdi300 is more popular than the TD5 perhaps 50 to 1. In many cases during the selection of the vehicle the Tdi300 is a must in the specs.
What it is worrying me is the use of a computer in a diesel engine to extract the most possible torque and power for a very small engine.
I am looking forward for inputs of members with TD5 engine who have done trips to remote areas with extreme conditions and the ones with Tdi300 who done the same trips.
Cheers
 

Forum statistics

Threads
188,470
Messages
2,905,508
Members
230,428
Latest member
jacob_lashell
Top