Emaergency Survival Kit; Hoping For Your Comments

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
HI flounder,
For me there is only one scenario - vehicle based. I sit and drink beer and wait.
Okeedokee. Never mind. Just trying to offer suggestions based on experience.

I was just trying to point out that there may be a scenario where you find yourself a few miles from pavement with a bust-o rig. You can stay by the rig until your beer runs out and things get uncomfortable, or you can motivate and go to where help can be easily flagged down. Or, push your little button and wait for the rescue butlers to come along. Your party.
 

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
Mechanical issues I can usually deal with. I carry plenty of tools and spare parts. But, if I can't fix the beast, I push the little button on the PLB. Help is on the way. No problem. I have zero egotistical problems with just waiting. John Wayne I'm not!



Sparky
As someone who has participated in a couple high mountain rescues, I'll say this. Rescue services are not a substitute for AAA. If your car breaks down, that sucks. Truly does. It's reason number one why I sold my Rover. But to summon a rescue because your car is busted is an irresponsible use of a life saving device like a personal locator and the rescue personnel it summons.
 
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robert

Expedition Leader
My apologies, I started reading then left to do some other stuff before I replied. I skimmed the thread but I did actually open and peruse your list, I just didn't remember what all was on it. Now that you mention it, I do recall you saying something about the hi-lift. I didn't catch the part about a second battery so my reference to that was that I've read too many posts from folks who have managed to kill their batteries off-roading. It happens for various reasons and I'll admit to having killed mine in the VW before (fell asleep with the radio on, there might have been a few tequila drinks involved). Winching, especially without the engine running as in a stalled out water crossing, is very hard on batteries. I noted that you live in NM and high temps can be hard on batteries just as cold temps are.

The air horns are definitely loud; one of my SAR instructors used one to call us back in at the end of exercises. I don't carry one simply because I have other tools such as the vehicle horn and a whistle. When I owned my power boat I did keep one aboard even though the boat had a loud horn and there were whistles attached to each life jacket and one on a lanyard on my dash.

The comments about securing your gear are spot on too. I harp on folks in the VW club I belong to about securing their camping gear. Getting hit in the head by a flying Coleman stove in the event of a collision would ruin your day. Besides, I hate having to toss folk's stuff out on the side of the road while I try to burrow my way in to get them out of their vehicle (I still work part time as a street paramedic). Nobody wakes up thinking they're going to be in an accident, if they did they'd stay home that day.

As for the PLB, I'm not opposed to them at all, in fact I keep meaning to get one but I'm in the States less than half the year so I haven't gotten around to it (there are some issues with the SPOTs too. See the reviews on REI for examples http://www.rei.com/product/784892/spot-ii-satellite-gps-messenger). I think that they're a great accessory for those of us who travel, especially those of us who ride motorcycles. Run off the road in a mountain curve and unless someone saw you go off, it's not likely anyone is going to notice something small like a bike went through the rhododendron (reference to Blue Ridge Parkway for example). My comment about them was only to say that there are recorded instances of them failing for various reasons so we as explorers/adventurers/drivers/Boy Scouts etc ought to be prepared. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and being prepared is usually much easier (and cheaper) than getting ourselves out of a problem. Just as you wouldn't stick an adjustable wrench and a hammer in your tool bag and call it complete, you shouldn't stick a PLB in your Jeep and expect it to cover all situations. Whether it's a socket set and impact gun, a signal mirror or a flare or a primitive skill like fire drills or Morse code, they're just tools in our tool box; they provide us with options to better solve whatever problem we may run into. Like I said before, with no pre-existing medical problems and barring any medical emergencies, there's no logical reason why you shouldn't be able to survive for a few days with a little forethought; you've obviously put that forethought into your vehicle so that it's dependable and you have extra fuel/water/etc. The fact that you're asking for us to review your list says to me that you are looking for possible deficits in your toolbox and honestly, I think that if you actually thought your PLB was the be all do all then you wouldn't have asked in the first place. Your profile list your job as electrical so you know that electrical things can fail, even with backups and fail safes in place- there's a reason why we have mandatory inspections and inspection dates on every piece of equipment on the oil rig I work on.


The key thing I took away from my SAR classes was that most folks are woefully unprepared, not just gearwise, but in mental attitude and skills. None of these skills are rocket science, our ancestors lived for centuries without rockets and most of us live today without them. A little prep goes a long way and that's why most of us are here, to increase our abilities. With all that in mind, that's why I carry most of the stuff I do. It's why I come to these forums, to see what others are doing and what's working or not working for them. What gear is worth having and what I should probably pass on or take a hard look at myself. I'll be the first to admit I've looked at what some people carry and wondered how in the world I'd been so dumb as to overlook something so seemingly simple. It happens, we're all here to learn from each other. :ylsmoke:


PS: No, my vehicle is nowhere near as prep'd as some of the ones on here and I'm not much of a mechanic when it comes to newer vehicles (I can tear a VW or Land Cruiser engine and carburetor down with no trouble but fuel injection systems befuddle me). Also, while I have a second battery in the VW, the one for the truck rides in the back when I'm traveling. I still need to do a dual battery mount under the hood, it's just not as big a deal on the east coast as it is out west where you can travel for much longer distances without seeing anyone else. My truck is my daily driver and most of the time it's fairly empty since I have no need for most of the gear and the threat of theft is much greater than the possible need. I still keep things like water, basic tools and appropriate cold weather/rain gear in it.

ETA I wasn't going to say anything about the overuse of PLB from a professional rescuer point of view but since Flounder brought it up I'll go ahead and say it- they are way overused. I'm not saying you are one of them or that you would use it inappropriately, but technology is not a substitute for skills and preparation. Looking at run reports, the majority of folks who use them, whether they be On-Star, Spot, etc are for non-life threatening events. Just as folks use 911 for all manner of BS, folks overuse PLBs. Keep in mind than any time you activate any form of emergency response you are putting others lives at risk. Most of us that work as professional rescuers do so because we want to help others and we accept the dangers, but it's all too often folks don't think or simply don't care, that their own actions can have far reaching consequences. Just think before you push the button.
 
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LACamper

Adventurer
Karma, you missed my point. The cell towers were down long before the storm made landfall. There was an overuse issue, then a server failure. You think the only reason you'll be in a survival situation is if your truck breaks down? Natural disasters happen everywhere. Then there are man made disasters (industrial accidents, terrorism, riots, etc.). Cell phone towers and carriers are delicate. Underground cables are succeptable to flooding (at the junction ends at least). Overhead cables can be wind damaged. I guess there are no storms in NM? Roads don't wash out?
My point was to prepare to survive for the worst case scenario you can imagine and then some.
Thinking more about your situation I'll make a few suggestions though.
CB radio so you're not cell dependent.
Gasoline- 10 extra gallons? How far will that get you off road? I'd add some more.
Sleeping bag/ pad/ small tent/backpack. Always assume you might end up on foot.
How about a small offroad trailer to increase your carrying capacity? Maybe make you not so top heavy?
 

Karma

Adventurer
HI All,
I totally agree about the over use of PBL for non-essential reasons. In the future, such use may kill an extremely useful system. I certainly hope I am never one of the over users.

Honu, just because I ask for thoughts on my emergency kit does not mean that I think I have problems. If I knew about problems, that make sense to me, they would be fixed. Guaranteed. But I know I do not have everything figured out. But I reserve the right to ask and question and, if I think it is wrong, reject. I do recognize crap. And I also know that most people do not think out their situations. Why should I follow their advice? Makes no sense to me.

So far, I have not seen any negatives about the PLB that you all have brought out. You who are critical of my strategy are offering nothing but hearsay concerning PLB reliability. Give me real info with facts and I'll listen. If you can, you owe us that information. If you can't, you should not spread rumors. They can only be negative. I have reserched PLB's and their reputation is excellent.

Obviously the batteries must be in first class shape. This is an area where the user can screw things up. If the batteries are not replaced on the specified schedule, the PLB cannot function as needed. This is strictly a user responsibility.

Being in electronics I know that some stuff can be terrible and other stuff is virtually indestructible. It all depends on how they are designed. Of course, everything can break. The issue is how often. I would bet that PLB's are among the most reliable devices being made today. Any company that gets a bad rep for producing unreliable life saving equipment will be out of business in short order.

Perhaps you have noticed that I have a first rate navigation computer system in my vehicle. Believe me, if there is a trail or road nearby, I'll know it. And I will go to it. God, you guy's must think I'm am an idiot.

I'm confused Flounder. Are you saying that any broken vehicle is no reason to call Search and Rescue, no matter what?

Don't have any kids, don't wheel in winter. I want one kit that covers all my needs. Once stuffed in the vehicle, it stays. I see no need to mess with it. It's part of the plan.

The things on the list that are not checked are things I need to buy. That's noted at the top.

The name of this thread is "Emergency Survival Kit" You guys are hard to please. Others complained that with my scenario it is not emergency at all. Boy!!

The more input I get from you all, the more I think I do have a good list. A few minor adjustments here and there and I will go with it.

It's very clear to me that our differences are mostly based on our strategies. I think mine is better for me. You all always forget that my strategy is totally based on the use of the PLB and 3 days. That you can't commit to such a simple strategy is, in my view, your loss.

Thanks for you input.
Sparky
 
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Karma

Adventurer
Karma, you missed my point. The cell towers were down long before the storm made landfall. There was an overuse issue, then a server failure. You think the only reason you'll be in a survival situation is if your truck breaks down? Natural disasters happen everywhere. Then there are man made disasters (industrial accidents, terrorism, riots, etc.). Cell phone towers and carriers are delicate. Underground cables are succeptable to flooding (at the junction ends at least). Overhead cables can be wind damaged. I guess there are no storms in NM? Roads don't wash out?
My point was to prepare to survive for the worst case scenario you can imagine and then some.
Thinking more about your situation I'll make a few suggestions though.
CB radio so you're not cell dependent.
Gasoline- 10 extra gallons? How far will that get you off road? I'd add some more.
Sleeping bag/ pad/ small tent/backpack. Always assume you might end up on foot.
How about a small offroad trailer to increase your carrying capacity? Maybe make you not so top heavy?

HI LA Camper,
Why put me through this pain? Read this thread. Read the list. Read my vehicle profile link. Then we can talk. I'm not going to repeat it again.
You are right about the cell phone problem. I misunderstood. I hate cell phones and I have an iPhone 4.

I have a Cobra CB. Good radio but useless for survival purposes. No place to put more gas. BTW, gas is very heavy. Read and you will find I have a sleeping bag, etc,........

Do not want a trailer. Vehicle is not as top heavy as you think. It handles very well even off camber. I have sufficient space. And I love the compact size of my Jeep. It's a dream on the trail.

What vehicle do you drive on the trail?

Sparky
 
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1leglance

2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Sparky,
The most important survival skill is one that would be great to display right now....stay calm :)
Even when folks offer advice you don't like or think is reasonable it is important to think it over and be gracious in your response. Why? Because you are already putting into practice a survival skill, THINKING.

Here is my take on your plan as I understand it:
Your electronic plan is a beacon...first let's define the terms as per our friend Wikipedia...

There are three types of distress radio beacons compatible with the Cospas-Sarsat system:[2]
EPIRBs (emergency position-indicating radio beacons) signal maritime distress.
ELTs (emergency locator transmitters) signal aircraft distress.
PLBs (personal locator beacons) are for personal use and are intended to indicate a person in distress who is away from normal emergency services; e.g., 9-1-1. They are also used for crewsaving applications in shipping and lifeboats at terrestrial systems. In New South Wales, some police stations and the National Parks and Wildlife Service, provide personal locator beacons to hikers for no charge.[3]
The basic purpose of distress radiobeacons is to get people rescued within the so-called "golden day"[4] (the first 24 hours following a traumatic event) during which the majority of survivors can usually be saved.
Since the inception of Cospas-Sarsat in 1982, distress radiobeacons have assisted in the rescue of over 28,000 people in more than 7,000 distress situations.[5] In 2009 only, the System provided information which was used to rescue 1,596 persons in 478 distress situations.[5]

I personally carry the Spot Satellite Messenger since it allows me to call for "help" from my 4wd buddies if all I have is a mechanical failure, and "911" if I have a medical issue which needs a helio. These electronic beacons have proven to be very very reliable and I agree with you that it makes a good FIRST line of defense. However no ONE thing should ever be the only plan.

Your vehicle:
It seems to be well set up & maintained, this is important as it is better to NOT get stranded in the first place. Almost every case of a person lost in the wilderness the vehicle gets found before the person. Of course it is bigger and thus easier to see from the air/ground. Also it makes sense to stay with the vehicle as a shelter, resource of supplies and mental sense of security. However there are times that is not possible:
Fire (you carry a fire exting but those sometimes are not enough)

I will respond more soon
 

1leglance

2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Let me add while I can that you responses to the folks who are trying to help does not bode well for when things go wrong.
Things will not go according to any plan so you should be willing to think outside the box and be open to any idea that pops into your head.

I am glad that you have wheeled for years and have a well setup rig, however in my experience folks who are interviewed after an event always talk about how they thought they had it all covered...till they didnt'.

Please spend some time on equippedtosurvive.org where many of us have tested our gear & skills. I have done summer & winter weekend trips where I pretended to have a vehicle failure and got by only with my ditch bag.

Take a wilderness first aid or first responder course as it teaches you to think outside the box.

Please be open to the help that is offered, we all want to see any of our folks here survive to tell the tale.
 

ThomD

Explorer
HI Thom,


Why more water? I carry 5 gallons - for three days. I think that is plenty even in the blazing desert sun. I do carry a small tent that would be used for a shade as well as a tarp. Check out my list. BTW, I never remove the water or gas cans from the vehicle once they are filled. I use self-priming siphons which work great.

Food: Weight is not the issue. It's storage space. This is just an itty bitty Jeep.

If I have to abandon, it's OK. The PLB will be with me and that's where Search and Rescue will look. Injuries are the major concern. But, as I said above, if I can stop the bleeding, I can out last anything else for three days. If not, well, then I die. Oh well.

More water because if you have 5 gallons in one container that is a single point of failure - leak or contamination. Separate your water. I did look at your list. :) It looks pretty good. My only concern is that you are planning to rely on the vehicle based systems. Imagine a fire that destroys your engine and batteries. If you are prepped for that, then you are set.
 

Quill

Adventurer
Most of us concerned with survival have found that redundancy of equipment is important. If I break down and can't fix it, then the next step is to get in contact with friends to come and help or a wrecker. Only as an absolute last resort would I call on search and rescue personnel. If I have to wait a week for anyone to get to me, then it's just extra camp out time. That said you have in mind exactly what you will do in an emergency. That's great most people stumble along until it is to late. I would recommend to anyone that anyone who does not practice survival skills to take a class from a well trained instructor, even as a brush up course on your skills. I need them regularly in first aid just to keep up. No I am not a SAR professional. I like to keep informed and my skills are fresh for when they are needed. Happy trails to you.
 

1911

Expedition Leader
From a SPOT owner and user a SPOT is not a PLB.

So far, I have not seen any negatives about the PLB that you all have brought out. You who are critical of my strategy are offering nothing but hearsay concerning PLB reliability. Give me real info with facts and I'll listen. If you can, you owe us that information. If you can't, you should not spread rumors. They can only be negative. I have reserched PLB's and their reputation is excellent.

My mistake for confusing the SPOT device for a PLB. There are several documented failures of the SPOT, but since you are talking about a PLB and not the SPOT then I didn't post the links to them. My apologies for trying to add anything to your thread; I am obviously too obtuse to comprehend the purpose of it in the first place and I will bother you no more.
 

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
I'm confused Flounder. Are you saying that any broken vehicle is no reason to call Search and Rescue, no matter what?
I'm simply saying that using SAR as a convenient towing service is irresponsible. Not including self-rescue into your planning is unfortunate as it places the culpability for maintaining your wellness squarely on the shoulders of others. I gather that you have your opinion of what you want to do, and solicitations of additional advice are unwanted.

Good luck.
 

Karma

Adventurer
HI All,
Let's talk about plans. Most of you seem to have a real problem with this idea. The fact that you do have problems with the idea of a plan tells me that you are not natural planners. There is always a conflict between those who plan carefully and completely and those that don't. It doesn't matter if we are talking about a work plan or an emergency plan or a Jeep club trip plan. In our club, usually there is no planning beyond where/when, and to have a full gas tank. I demand planning, cooperation, and assigned duties. I drive others nuts! But my trips are usually safe, fun, and coordinated. As much as others may hate the discipline I impose, they always complement the trips I lead. Why? Because the trips always go well and disasters are avoided. In short, we have more fun with much less wasted time.

A plan is not an inflexible action scenario. And, no plan is perfect. And no plan is so good that it can't be improved. The main reason I started this thread is to improve my plan. I would never, never, consider going on a trek with no emergency plan or no detailed trip plan. That is simply not an option. Planning is as natural to me as eating. A lifetime of planning has taught me that I'm right. I have seen and been involved with people who do not take planning seriously and have come to this conclusion: no planning or poor planning equals chaos. I think some people love this chaos. I don't. I think lack of planning is a prescription for disaster.

Any plan must be as good as the planner can make it. A good plan not only defines situations and actions, it also has provisions for controlled modifications where circumstances vary from the plans assumptions. The art of planning involves not only the obvious things but the flexibility to change the plan in a controlled way. This, I think, is where you and I are having problems. You think that my plan is fixed. Instinct tells you that this is the wrong approach. And you are right. Inflexibility with a plan is destined to not work. But if the plan is constructed with the necessary flexibility, unanticipated events can be handled with grace. Here is the area where a good planner can show their talent. And where a good plan will prove to be successful.

Many good books have been written about this subject. Much can be learned from them. However, I think great planners are born that way. It is an instinct the goes beyond books. It's a way of thinking. And it requires huge discipline that, for the planner, is fun.

I believe you all would benefit from learning good planning techniques for your treks. But this is not the place for me to teach the methods. Go to the library.

Sparky
 
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Andy@AAV

Old Marine
EPIRB, ELT, and PLB are all different versions of the same thing, a 406 mhz satellite radio transponder, each designed for a different environment (Sea, air and land). They all send a GPS location to a satellite system and also contain a 121.5mhz homing beacon. My familiarity is with the EPIRB devices from sailing, but they all work the same. There have been some failures of the EPIRB beacons, some unique to the marine environment, some due to the devices themselves, and some (most) due to human error. That's why most sailors carry 2 or 3 different types of beacon. And not all failures are due to user error. Here is an example of a systemic failure:

"But far worst yet is the fact that the Coast Guard received the signal but attributed it to another vessel! In their database my ID corresponded to a boat in Alabama. The Coast Guard immediately called the point of contact indicated in the database, having to wake up the owner at three am to be told “no I have not initiated my EPIRB."

Luckily, the boat had a second device on board that also automatically activated later as the boat sank.

I assume that you have registered your beacon and keep the contact data up to date. If you google for EPIRB failures you will get many results of failures. I know that it is not a PLB, but EPIRBs have been around for much longer and have a longer record and use the exact same systems. I don't discount the system as it has saved many lives but it may be useful to see what can be done on your end to make your system more reliable by learning from the mistakes of others.

Don't forget to leave an itinerary and map of your route with someone. At least a "if I don't show up by !!!!! I will be in this area". At least give searchers a heads up on where to start the search if you can't activate your PLB in an emergency.
 

JLH9

New member
I think your best bet is the prep for your specific route and trying to obtain information on the results of whatever rescues your routes Search and Rescue team have handled. For instance, what region has the most successful rescues and which doesn't, what equipment did they have to use for extraction, how long to mobilize and under what circumstances...etc.

Equipment, any of it can fail and so can you. And you said " If not, well, then I die. Oh well" so again I don't put any stock in a plan that involves giving up.

You plan differently than us, part of the excitement and enjoyment is going outside of our comfort zone and challenging ourselves. You sound like you would rather not do that it seems, so just consider your audience before you are rude. Use the info constructively or don't, but you've been rude to those trying to help, I am not sure that you are cut out for this environment, though we are glad to have you of you are, I hope you get some answers that help you.

I will keep quiet from now on.
 

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