Emaergency Survival Kit; Hoping For Your Comments

[LACamper]

John- EPIC post!

Ray- I had a talk recently with a local ER doctor about snakebite kits. Snakes are pretty common here and a distant cousin died two years ago from a rattler while hunting. His reply was that it is only of any value during the first three minutes. Beyond that the venom is too far in and you're only damaging the surrounding tissue further with it. He suggested tossing it and spend the time trying to get to the hospital.

Karma- This isn't an argument to be won, you asked for help, we're offering advice both to you and to the dozens of people that will read this thread for info later. I'll agree with you that at 70 yrs old your survival situation needs to be more carefully planned as you do not have the extra stamina to afford mistakes. I'm in my 40's and can already notice that my stamina isn't what it was.
I've never even been to a desert so I'm not familiar with desert survival in particular. Here, were I worried about being stranded 50 miles out I'd hop on my mountain bike and ride to safety. I don't guess that's a good option in the desert. Maybe not being in the desert with only one vehicle would be a good plan.

 

[Karma]

HI LA,
So, your suggestion would be for me to walk out. Right?

Sorry, that's not going to happen. I can't hang a bike on my fully loaded Jeep. Even if I could I would not try to ride out. Cycling is a high energy expenditure activity and especially not appropriate in the heat of the desert.

And now you come back and admit you have never been in the desert. How relevant can your suggestions be? You are just blowing hot air. And you have admitted your hidden agenda. You are talking to others and not me. That's fine if want to use this thread for this. Just tell me. I'm glad I am strong enough to resist your incessant attacks. By doing this you are putting me in danger. Shame, shame!!

Having more than one vehicle would solve some problems. But solo is my style, but not all the time. I must plan for one vehicle.

I have heard the same thing about snake bite kits. However, if one is stranded for several days, what is one to do? Any answers?

Sparky

 

[Karma]

HI All,
After thinking about LA's admission of an agenda unrelated to my post issue, I decided I was a bit harsh. I must thank him for his courage and integrity to admit that he had other things on his mind besides this thread. I think that you others that have spent so many words Sparky bashing should do the same.

Now that a slight crack has appeared, I want to try to exploit it. I would make the argument that my PLB/3 day strategy would apply to anybody independent of age or physical ability. If you do not support this then you are saying that a walk out is the only option. Clearly, that is not the best solution for many (maybe all) people for the scenarios I have presented. I think now you can get on the band wagon and endorse my plan as being a good option for anybody. Can you do that? Do you have the courage? I hope so. I know it's hard to swallow but you can do it.

Sparky

 

[K2ZJ]

However, if one is stranded for several days, what is one to do? Any answers?

Sparky

Read this whole thread.

 

[Andy@AAV]

Actually, according to what I have read, all the beacon systems are different. I believe the PLB system is the best. It is the newest and the most technically advanced. PLB's are not new. I Googled PLB failures and got exactly zero contacts.

Please re-read my post, I detailed how the systems use the exact same methods to communicate with the same emergency coordination center (ECC). They are the same system, except the case that holds the electronics. The ECC will get the notification that a beacon has been activated, work to confirm the emergency, then send out the data to the appropriate rescue group. That is why I suggested looking at the other systems (ELT, EPIRB) to see what types of systemic failures have occurred so you can reduce or eliminate the chance of repeating those failures. And I am not just talking about the PLB not working. There are many links in the chain after you hit the button that could slow or eliminate a response and you should be able to eliminate some of those before hand. Think of it as buying a 2012 Tacoma. There is very little data right now on that model year, so check the previous model which is very similar for issues.

I am not discounting the PLB strategy, I am suggesting that since that is the single failure point of your system you ensure that you have done as much as possible to lower the chance of a problem that could delay rescue. USCG (probably not many of these in NM) and many SAR centers will test your PLB for you, have you done that? Not a self test, but actually place it in a signal-sealed box and see if the signal is being sent and the GPS is updating properly. Did you verify that whoever put your registration information in the computer system didn't have a typo on a Friday afternoon? What group is responsible for SAR activity in your area? Have you ever contacted them? They would have much more specific advice on your situation that a group of people who are scattered around the world here...


Rocket, you need to develop more confidence in technology

I am a Gunnery Sergeant in the Marine Corps infantry. I have seen technology fail at the worst times and lives lost because of that reliance on a chain of events linked to a tech product. I have confidence in myself and my Marines, technology is a tool.

 

[JLH9]

There is a sub-forum here titled SAR - Search And Rescue, go check there.

 

[Ray Hyland]

HI Ray,
Glad you came on board.

I feel much more confident of my plan now than when I first started this thread. I thought others would come up with something that would make my plan obsolete. But, the best others can do is suggest that I walk out. Given the ground rules I set up (desert, solo, 70 years old, small vehicle, summer, 3 days, far from help), I think walking out is nuts. Though none of the nay sayers have said it, I think they would do the same. Yet they are beating on me relentlessly. So, I have to think they have a hidden agenda-maybe even hidden to themselves. Not being a mind reader, I can't be sure.

I have repeatedly asked what they would do if they were in my shoes. I got no specific answers. I think they don't know. So, my confidence in my plan grew. I will make some minor adjustments based on some of the suggestions from this thread then I think I am good to go.

You say that you think my plan is "not bad". I would hope you would not be so equivocal. If you think it could be better and have specific ideas I want to hear them. I want my plan to be excellent. Just don't ask me to walk out. And don't ask me to use much Jeep space. I'm out.

About the air horn. That was just an idea I had to solve the problem of a search team in the general area of the vehicle but they could not find it. A horn might get their attention and lead them to me. If I'm injured, I may not be able to walk to them. I was just an idea. I have not bought one. Hell, I may not use anything in the survival kit. I hope not.

As for the reliability of the PLB, I think it is not in question. They are reliable. Are they perfect? NO. And one could sit around the fire for a long time imagining scenarios where the PLB would fail. In reading these fantasy scenarios, my only impression is they are all very low probability dreams. Could any of them happen. I guess so. But, with a little care I think none of them would happen.

Let's say that the failure scenarios are realistic (I don't think they are), what are my options? Perhaps not use the PLB? Leave it home? Toss it in my Trasharoo? My options would be to walk out. To me that is a recipe for death. I won't do it.

I don't understand your comment about the tent. Repair it? I don't remember this topic being brought up. No one has even mentioned my tent. I think you thinking about another thread.

Sparky

OK, I can clarify.

Your plan is not bad. If at 70 you don't feel up to additional training, and you don't want to have a second vehicle along, then I think not bad is as good as you are going to get. But hey, you are getting out there and taking some risks, that is fantastic. That's what keeps us young. Not bad is pretty damn good I think, given your limitations (age, solo travel, not going to take any additional training, etc).

No, do not walk out. You are 70 years old and you will probably be in the desert. Stay with the Jeep and your water. No exceptions. As a first responder this is my advice to you. If you are 3 miles from the highway and you slip and break an ankle as you are walking out, it might as well be 100 miles. My crew rescues a lot of people. Most of them are within a few miles of a highway. We still need to go get them. BTW, once we are on a call-out, all we care about is getting someone safely home. We don't really care if your Jeep is stuck or you have a broken-leg. We just want to find you and get you out safely before you freeze to death or run out of water.

An audio signal is a good to have when rescuers get close, I would recommend a whistle over an air horn. Easier to carry on your person.

The PLB is statistically reliable. I would bet on the numbers if I were in your situation. Go with the PLB. If you wanted redundancy, then pack a sat phone as well. The other suggestions in this thread are all excellent suggestions, but as you said, they are not going to work for you.

In your .doc list you mentioned "repairing poles" next to your tent item. I assumed that meant the tent needed repair. If not, what does that mean?

You did not comment on food or clothes, did you want to discuss those items or are you comfortable with what you have got?

Cheers

Ray

 

[Honu]

I don't think anyone was saying walk out as much as you might not be staying in your rig ?
Roll over you might not be able to stay in it so be prepared to stay near it ?
One water source ? It might get damaged so two sources

Taking a medical course would be good to know a bit more just in case

Again I said it Lance said it make sure you can do what you need with one arm or one leg in case the other is injured

I like spots and the ability to send messages to friends as a first option to rescue

 

[Christophe Noel]

HI Ray,
Glad you came on board.

But, the best others can do is suggest that I walk out. Given the ground rules I set up (desert, solo, 70 years old, small vehicle, summer, 3 days, far from help), I think walking out is nuts. Though none of the nay sayers have said it, I think they would do the same. Yet they are beating on me relentlessly. So, I have to think they have a hidden agenda-maybe even hidden to themselves. Not being a mind reader, I can't be sure.

I have repeatedly asked what they would do if they were in my shoes. I got no specific answers. I think they don't know.

Sparky,

You've been given a lot of valid advice. It may or may not fit your scenario or agenda, but to rebuke it is unnecessary. Don't want to use that advice? Don't. I don't think anyone suggested your best option is to walk out. Some, like me, have suggested keeping those options open, even if it's unlikely you'll have to resort to that. As an example, If all your water is contained in a giant can, and your help is a two hour walk away, wouldn't it be nice to carry a small container with you? That's all some of us are suggesting. Small modifications to your planning may open up valuable options.

You do sound like a staunch planner. Maybe include some planned options that facilitate an unfortunate CHANGE in your plans, like a small walk out. Key word - small.

I have untertaken a few solo trips exceeding 90 days in very remote parts of the globe. Part of planning is prepping for a variety of unfortunate events and their appropriate responces. My bummer events have been as varied as having equipment stolen from under my nose to scorpion stings and and exploding stoves. As a mountain guide I had one client nearly die from an eptopic pregnancy...she didn't even know she was pregnant. You can't plan for every scenario. Just when you think you have, a meteor will land on your head.

Given the varience in unfortunate events, your planned emergency responce may vary even within the same trip. Your responce actions four miles from help will, and should, differ radically from your responce actions when you're three days away from help.

There's been a wealth of great advice offered here. No one says you have to accept all, or any of it. Just don't be so quick to insult those offering the very type of help you're going to solicit with the push of your PLB button.

PS - Snake bite kits are so ineffective they're seldom sold anymore.

 

[Karma]

OK, I can clarify.

Your plan is not bad. If at 70 you don't feel up to additional training, and you don't want to have a second vehicle along, then I think not bad is as good as you are going to get. But hey, you are getting out there and taking some risks, that is fantastic. That's what keeps us young. Not bad is pretty damn good I think, given your limitations (age, solo travel, not going to take any additional training, etc).

No, do not walk out. You are 70 years old and you will probably be in the desert. Stay with the Jeep and your water. No exceptions. As a first responder this is my advice to you. If you are 3 miles from the highway and you slip and break an ankle as you are walking out, it might as well be 100 miles. My crew rescues a lot of people. Most of them are within a few miles of a highway. We still need to go get them. BTW, once we are on a call-out, all we care about is getting someone safely home. We don't really care if your Jeep is stuck or you have a broken-leg. We just want to find you and get you out safely before you freeze to death or run out of water.

An audio signal is a good to have when rescuers get close, I would recommend a whistle over an air horn. Easier to carry on your person.

The PLB is statistically reliable. I would bet on the numbers if I were in your situation. Go with the PLB. If you wanted redundancy, then pack a sat phone as well. The other suggestions in this thread are all excellent suggestions, but as you said, they are not going to work for you.

In your .doc list you mentioned "repairing poles" next to your tent item. I assumed that meant the tent needed repair. If not, what does that mean?

You did not comment on food or clothes, did you want to discuss those items or are you comfortable with what you have got?

Cheers

Ray

HI Ray,
Oh, I understand your tent comment. The tent is actually fine. The poles have elastic cord inside and they are worn out. I have sent them back to North Face for repair. That you picked up on that means you have read the list. Good. Did you check my vehicle profile link I provided a couple of pages ago?

Food remains a question mark. I did get some ideas here that I will look into. Most likely I will choose a food supply that requires no cooking. That way I can eliminate the cooking part of my survival kit and save some space.

Clothes will depend on the season. That means they will change from time to time.

Yes, I carry a whistle. But the horn is much louder. I think the problem with the horn is they are not very directional but the whistle is. Maybe both?

 

[Honu]

one thing on food consideration is MRE I do like but in hot areas they get yucky much quicker but with a heater they are ready to go which is nice and you can eat them with minimal water in case your water is in shorter supply ?
I used to carry MRE but would rotate them every 6 months meaning eat them up for camping in the house they can last say 7 years in your hot truck 6 months to a year tops
real ones have a lot of calories and some other goodies so you can kinda spread them out for eating meaning eat the crackers a bit later the desert a bit later etc.. and all in a nice water tight packed easy to see package with everything you need inside
and for the heaters you do need a bit of water ? but can be dirty for the heaters

downside every 6 month to 1 year or so rotation but the no water to make the meal needed is nice

wet spaghetti goes down much nicer than a dry calorie bar IMHO and since you do want some comfort that would be the plus the downside would be you have to rotate ? which might go away from your idea of set it and forget it till needed ?

some of the protein packs I have used you really feel like you need to be drinking a lot of water with them ? again might not be a issue or might be just good info and why I would say buy some samples and try them out

some of the new energy goo packs are also pretty good gives you a boost to keep some energy up without having to eat a lot and feel thirsty as some of the dryer ones

 

[Ray Hyland]

some of the new energy goo packs are also pretty good gives you a boost to keep some energy up without having to eat a lot and feel thirsty as some of the dryer ones

Good call Honu. When we were hiking in Utah last month I was really tired one afternoon, and Cam from Nemo passed me one of those Clif Shot chocolate gel packs. I was expecting something horrid. But wow, it was actually really really good, and did give me a nice boost of energy, just what I needed at that point. And it didn't make me feel thirsty at all.

 

[Christophe Noel]

some of the new energy goo packs are also pretty good gives you a boost to keep some energy up without having to eat a lot and feel thirsty as some of the dryer ones

I'll ride my mountain bike about 800-900 hours every year, and suck down hundreds of gel packs, blocks and bars in that time.

Gu packs of what ever variety are the most ill-used, and most misunderstood pieces of food-stuffs the world has ever known. One of our customers at the store said he was hiking out of the Grand Canyon and ate an "energy" gu pack that held him over for five hours. Welcome to Placeboville. It's a great place.

Your garden variety gu pack contains 100-150 calories of quickly metabolized carbohydrates, usually in the form of an "...ose" or sugar. The average base metabolic rate for most people is roughly 1800-2300 calories a day. For a 50 year old man in average condition sitting under a tree at a heart rate of about 70-85 beats per minute, that gu pack provides maybe 15 minutes of glycogen replacing fuel...at best. Unless you plan on eating 20 of those sugary gu packs during the day, your better bet would be eating a Snickers or any one of a dozen different types of bars with 350-500 calories. ProBars, Kate's Bars and many others contain up to 450 calories, and calories in the form of slower burning fats, proteins as well as a few carbs. Many gu packs also contain caffeine which is proven to boost endurance at hyper-lactate threshold levels. Not something that would be of any use to a stranded overlander. That caffeine is also a diuretic.

At best, a gu pack or other boost of carb-dense 150 calories might serve to equalize your blood sugars long enough to wiggle your brain out of a fog so you can make a critical decision. Frankly, for this discussion, the nutritional amplitude of a Fig Newton would be far superior to a gu pack or sports-based carb pack. But, there are sports based products that may fit into this discussion.

Hammer Nutrition Perpetuem. This is a product that can be stored for months in powder form. Mixed with 18 ounces of water it can provide the essential electrolytes that would likely be lost by a stranded overlander in the desert. That same 18 ounces would include 300-400 calories with a small balance of proteins. It's stomach friendly as well. It has the advantage of being easily digestible. Solids require more energy and time to digest and metabolize. Just a thought. It's one of those things I carry in my emergency kit.

Or, go all hard core old mountaineer style and take a flask of cod oil or a tin of sardines. Lots of fat calories in that stuff. Blah...

 

[TRegasaurus]

I'd like to echo nguyet16's comment about practice. There are lots of great suggestions by users, many I will incorporate in my kit.
We all know how to use the stuff in the survival kit right? Practice, practice, practice with only your survival kit on at least a semi-annual basis in line with winter and summer.
Lighting a fire in rain, or snow, or howling wind with only your survival kit can be a real challenge.
But in an actual survival situation, time is critical when you’re cold and wet and you must get a fire going before you succumb to exposure.
Imagine holding a match when you’re shaking from hypothermia. I know, I've been there...

 

[Karma]

Hi Honu,
What are you talking about? Nearly everybody was saying walk out. Perhaps they didn't actually use those words, the fact that they denied me the use of the PLB for various reasons, and didn't like the 3 day plan, left no other option but to walk. Now you are changing the story. Good, I'm glad you admit that YOUR PLAN WILL NOT WORK. We are making progress. The rest of the nay sayers can chime in anytime.

With my scenario, walking out and not depending on the PLB and the 3 day plan is by far the most dangerous way. All of you "experts" need to make this clear to others who are watching this thread. I don't think you want to endanger their lives too. Walking is not the answer unless the distance is very short and no injuries are involved. Do it. You have a responsibility to do so.

Sparky