1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
See my thoughts within your post
Emaergency Survival Kit; Hoping For Your Comments
- Thread starter Karma
- Start date
KA5IVR
Observer
As far as VHF/UHF, the radio I run has a remote control head mounts above the rearview mirror and the radio mounts behind the dash panel under the steering wheel of my TJ. My CB takes up more room.
I don’t have anything against PLB’s, but I want redundant methods. I also want positive feedback when transmitting or signaling a distress call. If I’m using Ham Radio, I can hear someone answer my call. If I were to use my signal mirror to an aircraft, they would circle or wag the wings to let me know they saw me. You just have to hope the PLB signal is being received. You got to remember there are different types of Locator Beacons. You have EPIRB’s for Maritime, ELT’s for Aircraft, and PLB’s for Personal use. They all work, especially the EPIRB’s and ELT’s, but they are bigger and cost more. The PLB’s are designed to last 24~48 hours transmitting of their digital distress beacon. It would be pretty discouraging if help didn’t arrive by the time the PLB pooped out. My plan would be set off the PLB and start the Ham Radio methods to be redundant with signal fires or what ever else is necessary to get help, including hiking to a better location if needed.
Moab has many trails and most are well traveled, but I normally have a list of trails that I plan on running that day and just give my wife the itinerary and I check in with her at the end of the day anyway. I agree, Moab is a big area, but it is like eating an elephant, just do it one bite at a time. Same thing with Moab, just break it down to the areas you will be in during a certain period of time. If I get stranded day 2 of the week long trip, I better have 5 days of food and water left anyway and better start trying to get help on day 2 before someone misses me after day 7. If this is day 2 of a week’s worth of day trips, someone will know that I didn’t check in that evening and know I was on these certain trails that day.
I carry two different types of Ham Radios. I have a Kenwood TM-D700A, VHF/UHF dual band radio that also runs APRS and is connected to my NMEA-0183 compatible GPS receiver which transmits my position during my trek. This radio also will transmit short text and emergency status messages. Running APRS also allows you to be tracked live on certain websites on the internet. Since it is connected direct to my GPS, the error factor is removed. As far as voice communications, remember that VHF/UHF utilize repeater sites and these sites are normally located to very high locations. The Moab repeater is high in the mountains east of Moab and it covers just about all of the Moab area, including many canyons. Much more area than Cell phones do in Moab. There are also wide coverage linked repeater systems throughout NM, CO, UT, and AZ allowing you to transmit statewide. The second type of Ham radio I take in my Jeep is an HF rig along with a portable antenna. Takes a few minutes to set up, but HF signal bounce off of the ionosphere, so even in a deep canyon or in the middle of the ocean, you can talk to others. I don’t have my HF radio mounted in my Jeep. I carry one with a portable antenna system for remote setup and operation for fun. It works for that, just like in an emergency.
Karma, I know you like to expedition alone. This reminds me of the sailors at sea. There is a maritime HF net everyday which allows these guys to check in and increase their chances of rescue, if ever needed. I’m sure they also have EPIRB’s and Sat Phones.
I agree, CB is only good for vehicle to vehicle that is usually within eyesight. My 50 watt VHF/UHF radio will reach greater distances direct than a CB. I have demonstrated this many times when Jeeping with other hams. Again, redundant systems.
K2ZJ
Explorer
Really?
Karma, I hope you never need a rescue and never have to use your plb. Honestly I do. Here is an incident that occurred in 09. Jeepers, much like yourself, stalled in Kane Creek outside Moab Utah. They were trying to repair the stranded vehicle when they were interrupted by a flash flood that wrecked both Jeeps.
Looks like it was never answered.
HI All,
Please have a merry and wonderful Christmas. Thank you for your well intentioned feedback. I appreciate it. And while I have argued with you about certain things, you have given me much to think about. Be assured that I will think about it.
Thanks Again, Sparky
Please have a merry and wonderful Christmas. Thank you for your well intentioned feedback. I appreciate it. And while I have argued with you about certain things, you have given me much to think about. Be assured that I will think about it.
Thanks Again, Sparky
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This is my first post, but I really had to chime in on this. And after looking through this thread, here are my comments:
*For reference, my background is in general hiking, and serving as an Infantryman with multiple deployments to austere, desert climates.
1. First, urine color is a good general indicator of hydration level but is not the be-all, end-all. If your urine is medium-to-dark, then you are definitely dehydrated. If it is clear, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are hydrated. If you chug a bunch of water, it will quickly pass through your system and come out clear, but you are not hydrated. It takes days of drinking proper amounts of water to fully hydrate your body. You can't just try to catch up on hydration the morning before some physical exertion or a weekend trip.
2. Just because you have gotten by in a dehydrated state for 70 years does not mean anything in a survival situation. Day to day living is not in the same league as being exposed to the elements in a survival situation. You cannot base your "plan" on what the books say someone can survive without water. Your current state is not the same as an average healthy, hydrated young man. As others have said and you've chosen to ignore because you know best, separate your water into smaller containers and also bring with you some sort of electrolyte to help your body absorb the water.
3. Your PLB is good to have. You are more prepared than many who go out into nature. And I'm sure that the PLB has a good track record. However, to put complete faith in the technology is not only foolish, but it could get you killed. It has also already been explained to you that the PLB uses the same underlying technology as an existing emergency beacon system that has experienced faults before. It is also entirely possible that your PLB could get destroyed in a roll over or a completely random accident. For heavens sake, DO NOT rely solely on it to be able to send help for you. Related to this, you said that you don't always tell people where/when you're heading out into the wilderness. Change that. Tell someone that cares about you every time and let them know when you plan to get ahold of them later. That way, even if your PLB goes bust, you have someone that can notify authorities if you don't make contact again. Also related to this, ensure that you have some way to signal SAR aircraft(large neon colored sheet, flares or something). If you already do, disregard that.
4. You keep on insisting that, almost no matter what, you'll stay with your vehicle and have access to everything on board. Others have mentioned possibilities of your jeep catching on fire or getting caught in a flash flood and being taken away. You keep ignoring these possibilities. Please do not. The people are saying you should have a "go bag" or "grab bag" for these cases. They are so that you can quickly grab them and vacate the vehicle. This way you have some emergency supplies even if the entire rig gets burned to the ground. A tip would also be to keep the PLB in your go-bag. We are not saying that you should hike out. I know you keep saying that everyone is telling you to hike out. We're not. I don't think anybody is(beyond a very short hike to civilization). We are saying that you may need a bag of emergency supplies with you when you could be sitting near the charred hull of your jeep which contains the charred remains of your supplies.
5. Get a first aid kit that you can administer to yourself. Include some trauma and burn care in there. Maybe include a tourniquet, quick clot and an Israeli pressure dressing. Also, LEARN how to use them on yourself! If you flip over and/or get a serious injury, your PLB won't be worth diddly if you bleed out in a few hours.
6. Ultimately your biggest problem is that you keep on saying you have a "plan" for any emergency. Plans are fantastic, but you can't plan for emergencies. You can prepare for them, but you can't plan. Nature doesn't care about your plans and will stomp all over your plans. You can only prepare for certain scenarios and be flexible about what may happen. Fortunately for you, you're more prepared than many of the population, but you could still be considerably better prepared.
*For reference, my background is in general hiking, and serving as an Infantryman with multiple deployments to austere, desert climates.
1. First, urine color is a good general indicator of hydration level but is not the be-all, end-all. If your urine is medium-to-dark, then you are definitely dehydrated. If it is clear, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are hydrated. If you chug a bunch of water, it will quickly pass through your system and come out clear, but you are not hydrated. It takes days of drinking proper amounts of water to fully hydrate your body. You can't just try to catch up on hydration the morning before some physical exertion or a weekend trip.
2. Just because you have gotten by in a dehydrated state for 70 years does not mean anything in a survival situation. Day to day living is not in the same league as being exposed to the elements in a survival situation. You cannot base your "plan" on what the books say someone can survive without water. Your current state is not the same as an average healthy, hydrated young man. As others have said and you've chosen to ignore because you know best, separate your water into smaller containers and also bring with you some sort of electrolyte to help your body absorb the water.
3. Your PLB is good to have. You are more prepared than many who go out into nature. And I'm sure that the PLB has a good track record. However, to put complete faith in the technology is not only foolish, but it could get you killed. It has also already been explained to you that the PLB uses the same underlying technology as an existing emergency beacon system that has experienced faults before. It is also entirely possible that your PLB could get destroyed in a roll over or a completely random accident. For heavens sake, DO NOT rely solely on it to be able to send help for you. Related to this, you said that you don't always tell people where/when you're heading out into the wilderness. Change that. Tell someone that cares about you every time and let them know when you plan to get ahold of them later. That way, even if your PLB goes bust, you have someone that can notify authorities if you don't make contact again. Also related to this, ensure that you have some way to signal SAR aircraft(large neon colored sheet, flares or something). If you already do, disregard that.
4. You keep on insisting that, almost no matter what, you'll stay with your vehicle and have access to everything on board. Others have mentioned possibilities of your jeep catching on fire or getting caught in a flash flood and being taken away. You keep ignoring these possibilities. Please do not. The people are saying you should have a "go bag" or "grab bag" for these cases. They are so that you can quickly grab them and vacate the vehicle. This way you have some emergency supplies even if the entire rig gets burned to the ground. A tip would also be to keep the PLB in your go-bag. We are not saying that you should hike out. I know you keep saying that everyone is telling you to hike out. We're not. I don't think anybody is(beyond a very short hike to civilization). We are saying that you may need a bag of emergency supplies with you when you could be sitting near the charred hull of your jeep which contains the charred remains of your supplies.
5. Get a first aid kit that you can administer to yourself. Include some trauma and burn care in there. Maybe include a tourniquet, quick clot and an Israeli pressure dressing. Also, LEARN how to use them on yourself! If you flip over and/or get a serious injury, your PLB won't be worth diddly if you bleed out in a few hours.
6. Ultimately your biggest problem is that you keep on saying you have a "plan" for any emergency. Plans are fantastic, but you can't plan for emergencies. You can prepare for them, but you can't plan. Nature doesn't care about your plans and will stomp all over your plans. You can only prepare for certain scenarios and be flexible about what may happen. Fortunately for you, you're more prepared than many of the population, but you could still be considerably better prepared.
KA5IVR
Observer
Great Post! Welcome.
El Solis
Adventurer
I like Sparky's plan but would add a few things:
1. Take folding chair out of jeep
2. Take fridge out put next to chair
3. Light jeep on fire
Rescue should happen before the fire is out.
Or: Sparky can realize that his plan is his and he can do whatever he wants and if he dies he dies (quote from Sparky) so therefore this thread has really only been for entertainment
1. Take folding chair out of jeep
2. Take fridge out put next to chair
3. Light jeep on fire
Rescue should happen before the fire is out.
Or: Sparky can realize that his plan is his and he can do whatever he wants and if he dies he dies (quote from Sparky) so therefore this thread has really only been for entertainment
HI 1leglance,
I have been giving your grab bag idea a lot of thought. I think it is a good idea. My problem with it is finding space in an already crowded Jeep. Depending on your answers to some questions, I have found a space that is both adequate (I think) and easy to get to in a hurry. I have some questions but this is what I have come up with so far.
My grab bag would be a day pack. My survival gear would be broken into two groups. The first is the day pack where I would have the most essential items stored such as a First Aid kit, water, the PLB, fire making stuff, MRE's with heaters (9 I believe would be adequate for the duration), rain gear, a ground cover that could double as a sun shade, Nylon rope, tent poles for a sun shade, etc. This would be designed to to be used both for vehicle survival and for day hikes where having a day pack is nice and maybe essential in case of an emergency. A pack is great because it is easy to carry. I have several other signaling items that I carry in my backpacking kit a that I would transfer to the bag such as a signaling mirror, flares and a whistle.
The second half of the survival kit would be items that would make my stay more comfortable but can I do without if the vehicle is not available. These items would be stored in the vehicle in a Pelican case at the rear of the vehicle. It would include a small back packing tent, a sleeping bag, and more. I haven't figured it all out yet but I believe it would work.
Understand that I am still working with the 3 day model and total dependance on the PLB for a quick rescue. I believe the 3 day strategy is good and workable.
Here are my assumptions:
1. Desert environment with day time temperatures not over 105 F. Winter survival is not part of my thinking.
2. Maintain inactivity as much as possible while waiting for rescue.
2. Total dependance on my own water supplies and food.
3. Stay time not over 3 days.
4. Total faith in the PLB for emergency notification and rescue. Contacts with friends and relatives are not part of the plan. I can't count on that.
5. Able to either use natural shade or create my own.
6. Medical emergencies to not exceed the capabilities of my First Aid Kit. I assume that if I can stop any bleeding I can survive 3 days.
7. Vehicle may not be available for support.
8. Walk out is not part of my thinking except for short distances if it seems practical.
9. Hunting for food is not practical and not reliable and not needed.
10. Mental capabilities in tact. Without this nothing is possible.
11. Natural disasters, and other such emergencies are not considered.
Now, some questions given the assumptions I have listed.
1. What is the size and weight of your grab bag that contains the items you listed in the quote above?
2. Do you think that my day pack idea is a good one?
3. Knowing my situation and strategy, would you change anything on your quoted list? What?
4. Given my assumptions, what would be an adequate water supply for 3 days? Remember, I'll be using MRE's so water for food preparation is not needed nor is a cooking capability. I can do without coffee but it would be hard!
5. Is my list of assumptions realistic? If not, what would you change?
So, there you are. And you thought I did not hear your ideas. You were wrong. I just had to think about them. For me, that takes a little time.
Thanks so much, Sparky
I'm glad to hear that you're considering the grab bag. I don't know if all 9 MREs are necessary. Are you removing just the main meals from the MREs? I'd recommend doing that. Also, the MRE heaters do require a little bit of water to work. It's not much, but it should be considered with your water requirements. One other recommendation I would make would be to add a lightweight and easily compressible blanket type thing for chilly nights. Perhaps a poncho liner. That probably isn't needed for summer rides in the desert. But if your area gets cold at night then it would make the nights a lot more comfortable.
Honu
lost on the mainland
The MRE can be great know their is real military and fake ones and the calorie count is often way less in the fake
My old grab bag I had 3 since they were 1250 or so calories in military ones figured that was on the light side but enough I would not starve the military ones are a touch bigger and heavier but worth it for the calorie count
My theory was break it up eat the main entree then later the extras Like the cheese spread and whatever was with it and then later eat the desert
Their is instant coffee in them ? But to me that's brown water
The biggest thing is if they stay in your truck just remember the extra heat will make them expire quicker
80-100 degrees figure 6 months so be ready to rotate them if they stay in
My old grab bag I had 3 since they were 1250 or so calories in military ones figured that was on the light side but enough I would not starve the military ones are a touch bigger and heavier but worth it for the calorie count
My theory was break it up eat the main entree then later the extras Like the cheese spread and whatever was with it and then later eat the desert
Their is instant coffee in them ? But to me that's brown water
The biggest thing is if they stay in your truck just remember the extra heat will make them expire quicker
80-100 degrees figure 6 months so be ready to rotate them if they stay in
HI Guy's,
Thanks for the info on MRE's. I have been researching them but I did forget about the water requirement. Thanks for reminding me. There seems to be conflicting info on the storage life. I need to read more. From my reading, the actual storage life can be thought of in two ways. First is while they are in prime condition. This is the specified shelf life. Then they seem to go downhill slowly but the nutritional value seems to be retained. This part of their life is fuzzy in the literature and I have not read consistent info on this. Mostly they deteriorate in taste and texture and colors change, all important, I think. So, the actual, functional shelf life is longer than specified if one doesn't mind the taste and texture issue. How much longer has been hard to determine. Does this correspond to your experience?
My Jeep spends the vast majority of its life in a garage. The only time it is subjected to really elevated temperatures is on the trail which is probably no more than 10 percent of the time. This should help with MRE shelf life.
They do seem ideal, except for storage life. For maximum shelf life freeze dried meals are better but they require a cooking capability which I don't want to provide. How well do the heaters work? And for a three day survival strategy are 9 MRE's the right number? I'm figuring three meals a day for 3 days. Frankly, 9 sounds like a lot for someone who is being physically inactive.
Sparky
Thanks for the info on MRE's. I have been researching them but I did forget about the water requirement. Thanks for reminding me. There seems to be conflicting info on the storage life. I need to read more. From my reading, the actual storage life can be thought of in two ways. First is while they are in prime condition. This is the specified shelf life. Then they seem to go downhill slowly but the nutritional value seems to be retained. This part of their life is fuzzy in the literature and I have not read consistent info on this. Mostly they deteriorate in taste and texture and colors change, all important, I think. So, the actual, functional shelf life is longer than specified if one doesn't mind the taste and texture issue. How much longer has been hard to determine. Does this correspond to your experience?
My Jeep spends the vast majority of its life in a garage. The only time it is subjected to really elevated temperatures is on the trail which is probably no more than 10 percent of the time. This should help with MRE shelf life.
They do seem ideal, except for storage life. For maximum shelf life freeze dried meals are better but they require a cooking capability which I don't want to provide. How well do the heaters work? And for a three day survival strategy are 9 MRE's the right number? I'm figuring three meals a day for 3 days. Frankly, 9 sounds like a lot for someone who is being physically inactive.
Sparky
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nguyet16
New member
Karma,
Here are some of the things I pack for my trip to Sturgis on my motorcycle,these are just personal preference but give you some more ideas to play with.
1) Day pack- Mountainsmith lumbar pack with shoulder strapetts,good for the back
2) Adventure Medical Kits bivy and emergency blankets-takes up very little space,light weight,add gorilla tapes and ropes and you have your self an emergency shelter,bright orange
on one side for signaling.
3)I don't know if you still want to bring a stove along but if you can...check out the Emberlit wood stove,it folds flat and light weight,can be use as a mini firepit,no need to exert
energy to chop up wood,just collect small twigs.Good for that hot cup of coffee.
I have mres also,the mres heaters need only about a shot glass of water to work,as far as shelf life I usually leave them in a cool place before I go on a trip,I have cans of beef stews and such stored in a soft sided cooler always ready to go also.
Here are some of the things I pack for my trip to Sturgis on my motorcycle,these are just personal preference but give you some more ideas to play with.
1) Day pack- Mountainsmith lumbar pack with shoulder strapetts,good for the back
2) Adventure Medical Kits bivy and emergency blankets-takes up very little space,light weight,add gorilla tapes and ropes and you have your self an emergency shelter,bright orange
on one side for signaling.
3)I don't know if you still want to bring a stove along but if you can...check out the Emberlit wood stove,it folds flat and light weight,can be use as a mini firepit,no need to exert
energy to chop up wood,just collect small twigs.Good for that hot cup of coffee.
I have mres also,the mres heaters need only about a shot glass of water to work,as far as shelf life I usually leave them in a cool place before I go on a trip,I have cans of beef stews and such stored in a soft sided cooler always ready to go also.
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Honu
lost on the mainland
The MRE thing I might say rotate them once a year ? just to be safe though some of them are actually decent camp food so rotate them as you eat them maybe ?
I have had some outdated ones and they were fine and honest had no idea how they were stored ?
But yes agree info is all over the place on MRE life
I would still practice with one hand/arm with some of the stuff I have had to save a lot of people and more than a few had broken limb or ripped up hand etc...
Lucky for them my rescues were then backed up by ambulance within a few hours but the one hand is a good thing to try
If you can carry 9 and it fits might be OK if not I bet even 6 or 2 a day of the real military ones would be plenty again I guess when ya get it packed I would rather error on to much food then not enough
I have had some outdated ones and they were fine and honest had no idea how they were stored ?
But yes agree info is all over the place on MRE life
I would still practice with one hand/arm with some of the stuff
I have had to save a lot of people and more than a few had broken limb or ripped up hand etc...Lucky for them my rescues were then backed up by ambulance within a few hours but the one hand is a good thing to try
If you can carry 9 and it fits might be OK if not I bet even 6 or 2 a day of the real military ones would be plenty again I guess when ya get it packed I would rather error on to much food then not enough
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Sparky...great that you are looking into a ditch bag and you are very much on the right track.
Rather than post a long worded (winded response I will offer to pull my pack out tomorrow in the daylight and take some pics and offer my thoughts to go with them
That way you have a visual reference and something to work with.
All in all you are moving very much in the right direction and I hope that you, me or anyone else we know ever has to put our theories to the test
Rather than post a long worded (winded
response I will offer to pull my pack out tomorrow in the daylight and take some pics and offer my thoughts to go with themThat way you have a visual reference and something to work with.
All in all you are moving very much in the right direction and I hope that you, me or anyone else we know ever has to put our theories to the test