Emaergency Survival Kit; Hoping For Your Comments

[matt marquardt]

Twice now I've almost posted a book of a reply.

Can't say enough about being prepared....
Please don't come to the south west without a **** load of water. Even if it's just Disneyland because once you leave there it could be another 30 degrees hotter not far from there.

Back country adventure inspires planning where as cruising down I-15 to sample wine in Temecula can turn bad fast.

Matt

 

[Karma]

Twice now I've almost posted a book of a reply.

Can't say enough about being prepared....
Please don't come to the south west without a **** load of water. Even if it's just Disneyland because once you leave there it could be another 30 degrees hotter not far from there.

Back country adventure inspires planning where as cruising down I-15 to sample wine in Temecula can turn bad fast.

Matt

HI Matt,
Planning is what this thread is all about.

Sparky

 

[1leglance]

Sparky I challenge you to find & quote where I said to walk out. Plain & simple you need to READ what is written and stop assuming you know what people are saying.
As for your PLB vs Spot, go with whichever you wish but you still have not addressed any of the points I made. Again you are quick to assume and dismiss without responding to any of the points made.
I am glad you are at least willing to go with multiple water sources.

As I have said before I am glad you are planning, what makes me sad is that your planning is being based on some seriously flawed assumptions and I will list them again.
3 days without water in the desert even resting can result in serious physical perm damage. You are at least addressing this with multiple water sources.
I have not seen you mention having a ditch bag packed with basics vs your normal storage setup. Again you assume you won't have a vehicle fire, roll over, off camber situation or anything else that would mean abandoning your rig. This doesn't mean you have to walk out, it just means your ditch bags needs some shelter/shade.

The desert southwest where we are talking about can be brutally hot, scary cold, wicked flashfloods and other weather conditions that require preparation.
I will say it again & again for the sake of anyone else reading this, you really need to spending some weekends practicing for when things go wrong. Park your rig and pretend you are waiting for help to arrive. But only use your ditch bag/survival gear.

Good luck and may you never need to test your assumptions in real life.

Oh and lastly I keep suggesting www.equippedtosurvive.org as the best resource on the web filled with people who actually practice what they preach (they like the PLB over Spot also just so you know...but they also don't do what we do).

 

[matt marquardt]

Is a PLB really needed?

 

[matt marquardt]

I should have read more.

Karma,I hope I'm still interested in going it alone when I'm 70 .

 

[TCcruzn]

I guess the OP makes it clear why he only needs one seat in his rig.

 

[trust]

Wow Sparky, you've really opened a can of worms with this thread. I think it has all been said a couple ways, bottom line is to be prepared, know your limitations under the circumstances you find yourself in and make sure one way or another that someone can and will come look for you should you run into trouble. I think the PLB or whatever is a good idea but having a good Ham radio would seemingly work as well and the old tried and true letting a trusted friend know where, when and how you are going and when to send out the dogs to find you.

The walk/stay debate is an interesting one, we recently had an older couple spend several days or maybe a week with their car lost and broken in the back country. They weathered it OK until they decided to walk out. Only a 7 mile walk on a dirt road to help, he made it, she didnt last a mile. They didnt understand their limitations under the circumstances and assumed, tragically, that they could make the walk.

It is an interesting question and one that has gotten me thinking, I dont typically plan for problems beyond the regular vehicle failures that I expect and can deal with with the spares on hand. I guess I will need to rethink my list of critical spares in a broader sense, fortunately y'all have given me a lot of good data to mull over, thanks!

Of course Sparky, if you were using the Unimog instead of the Jeep you wouldnt have to worry about any of this, you wouldnt get out of the county far enough to get lost....

 

[Karma]

Of course Sparky, if you were using the Unimog instead of the Jeep you wouldnt have to worry about any of this, you wouldnt get out of the county far enough to get lost....

HI trust,
Sad but true.

Sparky

 

[JLH9]

HI JLH9,
I'm not at all sure you are right about most everybody agreeing with my PLB/3 day plan. But I'm glad you do. I have become convinced that my plan is the best for almost anybody in a deep desert survival situation. For most, attempting to walk out is suicide. Is this the most common mistake? Might be. Panic tends to cause mistakes.

After all the discussion about the three day plan and the need to carry sufficient water in a desert situation, I made the statement that I probably would not need to carry any water at all. No one contradicted me. I was surprised. In truth, this statement was based on a fact deeply buried in my memory. It was a fuzzy memory. I was not really sure about it. I decided that such an important topic deserved some research.

I found this information on the internet. As you can see, the no water scenario is realistic for a three day plan even in high desert and high desert temperatures (100 deg F). The ground rules to make it work is to not be active (no walk out!) and stay in the shade. My plan always included shade as part of my survival kit. Take a look.

View attachment 78685

As you can see, for temperatures of 100 deg F, 5 days survival is predicted without any water intake. This fits with my three day plan. In the high desert 100 deg F is a realistic high. However, the low deserts commonly reach 110 deg F and only 3 days survival is predicted with no water. This is certainly a case where water would be necessary to assure survival. I have always planned to carry water. The question that was hammered was would the water be available if it stayed with the vehicle; or if I was injured could I reach the water. I'll admit that there are scenarios where vehicle located water may not be available though, I think, very unlikely. And, don't discount a refrigerator full of soft drinks.

I have to assure you that I will not be driving in the deep desert regions in the low desert in summer. Too hot to be worth doing (110 deg F). That's just nuts. But the high deserts are very much a possibility. In fact, I do it every year. Even so, I really try to avoid August, the hottest month. It's just not comfortable. So, it seems that the PLB/3 day plan is realistic even with no water.

Don't misunderstand. I am not suggesting that water is left at home. Not at all. I'm just suggesting that in the worst case that I would subject myself to, having no water for 3 days is a realistic survival strategy.

BTW, New Mexico Search and Rescue has a goal for each rescue. They attempt to rescue within 12 hours after notification. They are also very enthusiastic about PLB's. The chief of the unit felt that my PLB/3 day plan is completely realistic.

Sparky

Sparky,

Glad you spoke with the local SAR's, if they put stock into your plan then I think you have done everything you can. I will say one more thing, you spoke about a fridge full of softdrinks in the very same post that you are posting a Hydration/Dehydration chart. I have been a wrestler and submission grappler for a very long time, so I can cut / lose significant weight and gain it back in a matter of a few hours solely based on my water intake and output. That chart assumes that you are already at a state of hydration before any of the variables are added (heat, shelter, high dessert, low dessert). That said, ditch the soda! That stuff will simply dehydrate you, take your energy and it takes the place of where your water should be. So you need to plan to be hydrated at the point that you turn your PLB on for that chart to make sense, and if you are drinking soft drinks, you simply won't be hydrated properly. Are they better than nothing, yes, however you have the choice to bring water instead. So this is an instance of knowing your limitations and drinking a fridge full of soda certainly limits you physically. Just one more variable you could potentially eliminate...just a thought, from lots of experience.

 

[Karma]

Hi JLH9,
What I'm about to say will probably send you into a state of apoplexy.

During my normal, civilized life, I rarely drink plain old water. Coffee, yes; a lot of fruit juice, soft drinks too. Hardly ever just pure water. Rarely alcohol. And yet, I'm alive and kicking and healthy. How do you explain that? And if I do this during normal life and have survived, why would a survival situation be any different? This is especially true since I don't plan to be active as I wait for the posse. I don't see the difference.

I think you are exaggerating this significantly. I am not going to claim any spectacular health benefits for drinking Cokes, but they are about 99% water.

I do think you are right about the chart assuming full hydration. But, at any point in time, can any of us claim full hydration? The answer is probably yes. When we don't feel thirsty, we are hydrated. Just asking.

Sparky

 

[Karma]

Hi All,
I would like to address an issue that has been brought up numerous times. That is whether one should glue one selves to the vehicle no matter what. Some of you seem to think that I'm saying that I should. I'm not saying that at all. While I think you are correct in mentioning the silliness of such a strategy, I don't think it needs to be mentioned more than once. After all, I'm not an idiot and sticking slavishly to the vehicle was never part of my thinking.

Here is what I would do. I would attempt to stay in visual contact with the the geographical point at which I activated the PLB. Typically, that would mean the vehicle. But, not always. That would be the GPS coordinates at which the rescue team would expect to find me. Therefore, I would want to be present when they arrived or to be able to signal them if they are close.

There are exceptions. If the general area around the vehicle was particularly viscous, offered no shade, was very windy, I would seek a better "wait" location. If I had already activated the PLB you might think that the rescue team would be heading to the wrong place if I have moved. However, the PLB sends out a series of GPS locations until the battery runs out. The PLB would be with me at all times, not necessarily at the activation point. In other words, the rescue team would have a history of my movement since they received the original coordinates. They should have no trouble finding me. Also, remember, the PLB has a low power homing beacon signal that S&R would be monitoring to pin point my specific location. However, I would not like to make their job harder than necessary. So, I would be close by and, hopefully, in visual contact.

The desert is typically a very quiet place. Do you think I would hear a rescue vehicle or helicopter? I think so. So, even visual contact with the activation point is not absolutely necessary.

I hope this explanation puts this issue to rest.

Sparky

 

[JLH9]

Hi JLH9,
What I'm about to say will probably send you into a state of apoplexy.

During my normal, civilized life, I rarely drink plain old water. Coffee, yes; a lot of fruit juice, soft drinks too. Hardly ever just pure water. Rarely alcohol. And yet, I'm alive and kicking and healthy. How do you explain that? And if I do this during normal life and have survived, why would a survival situation be any different? This is especially true since I don't plan to be active as I wait for the posse. I don't see the difference.

I think you are exaggerating this significantly. I am not going to claim any spectacular health benefits for drinking Cokes, but they are about 99% water.

I do think you are right about the chart assuming full hydration. But, at any point in time, can any of us claim full hydration? The answer is probably yes. When we don't feel thirsty, we are hydrated. Just asking.

Sparky

Haha close but not quite apoplectic

I was by no means contending that you can't survive drinking those things, as horrible as they are for you. I was merely saying if you are going to base your planning on a chart like that or at least use it as a basis for a point then you should maximize your potential to make that work for you. Noone has suggested 'fluids' we have all suggested 'water', which is deliberate, water and fluids are NOT the same thing. Those other drinks have different ingredients that force the body to work inefficiently. They simply don't hydrate you as effectively as water, not even close. Do doctors or EMT's give people an IV of Coke? So the reason that a survival situation is different from your everyday life in which you drink all of that other junk, is that IT'S A SURVIVAL SITUATION😃 but here is the real answer:

If it is 110 degrees you will lose water at a faster rate than if it were 100 degrees. But if you are not hydrated properly that is going to be even faster. Since you are obviously not going to be hydrated you should adjust the data to account for that variable. Whether or not you are active this has an effect on your body.

And yes of course we can say that we have been and maintain proper hydration. So you know, it is when your urine is clear. Also, my exaggeration, there have been a bunch of people suggesting more water, the common denominator on this thread is you underestimating water.

You seem that you are well read on a few points you might as well do the research on how water functions in the body and how the body works without.

 

[Karma]

HI JLH9,
You did not answer my question. So, I'll repeat. If my normal drinking habits have kept me alive for 70 years, why not continue them in a survival situation? Because of my survival strategy, I'm not planning on any unusual activity. Again, I come back to to what I believe are theoretical suppositions you all have made throughout this discussion that do not have anything to do with my reality.

IOW, why do you insist on making survival more serious than it actually is? Are you really saying that drinking Coke's will kill me waiting for rescue more than they will kill me waiting for a football game to come on TV? Please, you need to be realistic and I don't think you are. I think you are espousing a philosophy that will hold only in the extreme and maybe not even then. At some point common sense has to be a factor.

Are you really saying that if I have no water to drink but a cooler full of Coke's, I should not drink the Coke's because some manual says they are not a perfect hydration source? Is that what you are saying? I just can't buy it. Sorry. Please get real.
Sparky

 

[KA5IVR]

I've been watching this thread from the start and have found the discussions very interesting. The original post was about Emergency Survival Kits and the thread seem to take a few twist and turns. This link is for an article that I wrote for another forum, http://www.otrattw.net/forum/content.php?119-Emergency-Kits& if anyone is interested.

I wanted to throw in a few comments of my own. I grew up in the NM area that Karma lives and went to LAHS. Back 35 years ago, I often explored the back country alone. Never really thought about it being young, dumb, and bullet proof. Just like filing a flight plan, someone always knew the area I was going to be in and when I planned on being back. Later after being involved with Ski Patrol & SAR, I changed my mindset about traveling the remote back country alone. I still do it sometimes on day trips, but only on well traveled routes.

I also would not trust my total possible rescue to a PLB. I've been a ham operator since high school and have ham radios in my Jeep. A good HF rig is much more peace of mine for me and Ham licenses are easy to obtain now days. I rarely come across too many areas in my Jeep not covered by VHF/UHF repeaters.

As far as age and walking out, it just depends. During the last year, twice I have been to remote areas and have came across older couples hiking. I'm talking way past 70 and they had been hiking several miles. My dad is 92 and does most everything he did at 70, so I don't believe there is a certain age that prevents anyone from hoofing it, if needed. Chances are that a mechanical issue is the most likely reason you would get stranded in a vehicle. I agree with the previous posts that if you are close to a main road, walk out and just don't wait. But on the other hand with different circumstances, staying put makes more since. You have to use your common since on which to do.

Just prepare for the worst and expect the best. Most of all, have fun doing it and enjoy the time you are able to.

 

[Karma]

HI KA5IVR,
I have been looking at 2m capability. My main problem is I don't have a place to put one, even a small one.

I would like to know why you distrust PLB's. You are not the only one here that has expressed that opinion. However, when I have asked why, no one has been able to give a solid reason. Obviously, I am interested in situations where the PLB did not work. I'm basing my whole survival strategy on my PLB. It better work!!

I have attempted to research PLB reliability but have come up empty. There seems to be no reports indicating a failure. This is not true of other beacon systems such as SPOT. This gives me a lot of encouragement for my dependance on my PLB.

The common wisdom for guaranteed survival notification falls into two camps. First, let someone know where you are going and when you will return. I have serious problems with this. First, for example, if you have a problem 2 days into a week long trip, how would your contact know to contact somebody until the week has passed by? Then, once they did, what exactly would they tell the rescue folks? Could they give enough info to help the rescue effort? I doubt it. Saying, "Well he said he was going to Moab". Well Moab is a big place. That, plus even I don't usually know in any detail where I will be going once I get there. I usually wait until I'm there before the details become clear. Not much help to S&R. Second, I may be dead by the time they find me. I just don't see this as a strategy that has much hope for success. I certainly don't think my 3 day survival plan would work.

Next is ham radio. I think this has more hope but I distrust its reliability. First, 2m coverage is not total, especially down in the deep canyons of some place like Moab or many other desert locales. Next, it depends on talking to the right people. As you know people are notoriously inefficient at getting facts straight. And just what do you tell them? Personally, I would give GPS coordinates and a health report assuming I could get to my GPS unit. I may not be able to do that as several people have pointed out in this thread. Assuming that a repeater is available, that might get the job done. Then I would depend on the contact to notify exactly the the right people and transmit the information to them with no errors. Note that this would require multiple transfers of information between various people. I don't think this is very reliable and I don't want to bet my life that it all works well. Certainly better than nothing but fraught with potential problems. The consequence of information failure is death.

Then, of course, is the ubiquitous cell phone. Again, the same problems as 2m except I may have some chance of actually talking to S&R. Apparently, Moab has excellent cell coverage according to the S&R folks I have talked to. But that does me no good in the bottom of a deep canyon. One must be able to see a tower. I do carry a cell phone and I would attempt to use it in an emergency. But, I know there are many cases where it will not work.

Please note that I have left CB radio out of this discussion because I think it is useless for survival purposes. Again, I have a CB in my Jeep but I only use it for vehicle to vehicle communications.

I think the PLB is nearly a flawless system that overcomes most if not all of my objections with the other techniques. I am not going to go into all the wonderful details of why this is true. You can research them for yourself. But, basically it boils down to reliable system communications, dependable infrastructure, speed and accuracy with which a rescue effort is mounted, and the system is in place and well understood by the S&R people. The PLB unit itself seems to be extremely reliable.

I think the objections seen in this thread have more to do with innate technophobia that invests many people than the system itself. They have, I sense, a deeply rooted distrust in things technical especially if they do not understand them. I do not have such a problem and I do understand the system. I know it works and works well. So, therefore, I'm willing to bet my life on the PLB beacon system. It is so efficient that it allows my 3 day survival plan to be practical while no other alternative offers this.

Are any of these methods perfect? No, I'm not that naive. But the closest is the PLB beacon system.

Sparky