Ray Hyland
Expedition Leader
Let's watch the tone everyone, no need for confrontation. We are simply sharing information.
Emaergency Survival Kit; Hoping For Your Comments
- Thread starter Karma
- Start date
Honu
lost on the mainland
Again half mile to a busy road might be worth walking out ?
Not changing my mind at all
Walk out over a mile or two nope
Mile or two and your plb is broken ? What then that's not a bad walk if you were prepared and could end up being a option in the last case ? Unless you plan to sit their for days on end ?
Flounder I hear ya on the goo packs not being replacement for any meal just another idea of easily absorbed snack in that situation ? Some of the dryer snacks leave me to thirsty
We never had those back in the day I was putting in 400+ miles a week but we used to have some other stuff we mixed in a bottle that was this strange thick stuff but worked good
Sme of my other buds used to do this boil down coffee to a sludge ! Nasty stuff
Not changing my mind at all
Walk out over a mile or two nope
Mile or two and your plb is broken ? What then that's not a bad walk if you were prepared and could end up being a option in the last case ? Unless you plan to sit their for days on end ?
Flounder I hear ya on the goo packs not being replacement for any meal just another idea of easily absorbed snack in that situation ? Some of the dryer snacks leave me to thirsty
We never had those back in the day I was putting in 400+ miles a week but we used to have some other stuff we mixed in a bottle that was this strange thick stuff but worked good
Sme of my other buds used to do this boil down coffee to a sludge ! Nasty stuff
Ray,
I definitely want to stay on your good side but I must say that bad advice, such as I was getting, must be repudiated. It's best if the repudiation is done by those giving the advice. I admit that I'm a little pissed by the blindness that was (is) shown towards my strategy. I got beat up pretty badly for sticking to my guns. But more important than that, more important than my feelings, people must realize that the walk out only philosophy is bad advice and WILL put people in danger. It is this that the folks who were giving this advice should do us the service of repudiating. If they don't they are not being responsible. This is not confrontational. It is an attempt to get to the truth which in this case is life and death. No less than that.
Sparky
Sparky,
I jumped in trying to give good general survival advise (as I said I don't have a convenient desert to play in...) not advance an agenda. I also know that many more people read these forums for info than actually post. For the record, I don't think any of the advice I gave was countered by the desert terrain.
I did not suggest you should attempt to walk out for further than you feel confident. Calling for help, preferably from friends and family, rather than a government agency at taxpayer expense, is a good back up plan. Having a primary plan to avoid that is even better. It sounds like you're as prepared as you can as far as equipment goes with a few minor tweaks as mentioned several times.
A spare tent pole is never a bad idea, especially if you're using fiberglass rather than aluminum. They tend to get brittle over time.
My last post was an attempt to diffuse the situation. I don't go online looking for an argument. I'm not looking for one here. Good luck and happy camping...
I jumped in trying to give good general survival advise (as I said I don't have a convenient desert to play in...) not advance an agenda. I also know that many more people read these forums for info than actually post. For the record, I don't think any of the advice I gave was countered by the desert terrain.
I did not suggest you should attempt to walk out for further than you feel confident. Calling for help, preferably from friends and family, rather than a government agency at taxpayer expense, is a good back up plan. Having a primary plan to avoid that is even better. It sounds like you're as prepared as you can as far as equipment goes with a few minor tweaks as mentioned several times.
A spare tent pole is never a bad idea, especially if you're using fiberglass rather than aluminum. They tend to get brittle over time.
My last post was an attempt to diffuse the situation. I don't go online looking for an argument. I'm not looking for one here. Good luck and happy camping...
Ray Hyland
Expedition Leader
As Marshall Rosenberg states in his books on non-violent communication, what we think we say is very rarely what others think they hear.
In some situations it makes sense for some people to walk out. People like me, and some of the other responders here. We are talking about trained FR and military personelle, well-prepared, walking a short distance in good conditions.
Your situation is different. From everything you have said, I don't believe you should leave your Jeep. You should stay with your water and use your ELB.
I think there may have been some confusion, that you felt some people were telling you to walk out, and some people felt you were saying that no-one should ever walk out. Obviously that led to some tension.
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
About 15 years ago, a young couple in an ill-equipped Cherokee were exploring around one of the canyons in central Arizona on what I would say is a less than frequented track. Their vehicle failed, and did so ********** dab atop a butte with the sun blazing down on their heads. This in an area with no shade, no relief. Within a mile of them, in clear view, was a creek complete with shade trees and even swimming holes. This was actually their original destination - sorta. Anyone who has traveled the desert southwest can tell you that no manner of contrived shade near your vehicle can compete with the cool freshness of a cottonwood shaded wet canyon. Their solution was simple enough. Walk the mile to the water, but leave a well placed S.O.S. at the vehicle. For them, this was the standard hood up, flag on the antenna, and note on the windshield. They were rescued by the Yavapai Jeep Pose volunteer group within 36 hours, and were none the worse for ware. Had they stayed at their vehicle, they would have cooked their brains. The risk of staying in exposed sun by their vehicle was greater than the risk they took to walk one mile to shade and water. I remember the scenario well because those people were friends. Smart ones.
Staying with your vehicle is in fact the ideal situation. On that we agree. That said, all situations are about managing risk, and there are situations whereby staying with your vehicle may present a greater risk in and of itself. Rare, but possible. Like anything else, this is one contingency to consider with your planning.
Absolutes and hard-fast rules don't always offer the security we seek.
Staying with your vehicle is in fact the ideal situation. On that we agree. That said, all situations are about managing risk, and there are situations whereby staying with your vehicle may present a greater risk in and of itself. Rare, but possible. Like anything else, this is one contingency to consider with your planning.
Absolutes and hard-fast rules don't always offer the security we seek.
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Karma,
many of us have said your plan for your first 3 days is fine, it's after that three days that we (at least I) was worried about. I think a lot of us are trying to extend the plan just in case. But you should take that as the point that your first 3 day plan seems to be okay and seems to suite you very well, which is extremely important I think. I do think the only part of your plan that you haven't done (at least that I remember reading), is that you should go talk directly to the local SAR folks in the area you plan to traverse. No one will know the area better than they will. If you are able to sit down with a map of your planned route, they may be able to give you advice as to where the most dangerous areas are located. I guarantee that you can put your finger on a map and one of those folks can say whether or not 3 days is enough. It may help you plan a better route to work within the guidelines that you have put forth. We know the PLB works, but you should also know the probability of the local SAR will make it to any of your locations in the time you allow.
Furthermore, I know that the local SAR teams around here have Jeeps that are properly modified for the existing terrain that they encure, your local team may even be able to inteligently comment on your Jeep and set up.
many of us have said your plan for your first 3 days is fine, it's after that three days that we (at least I) was worried about. I think a lot of us are trying to extend the plan just in case. But you should take that as the point that your first 3 day plan seems to be okay and seems to suite you very well, which is extremely important I think. I do think the only part of your plan that you haven't done (at least that I remember reading), is that you should go talk directly to the local SAR folks in the area you plan to traverse. No one will know the area better than they will. If you are able to sit down with a map of your planned route, they may be able to give you advice as to where the most dangerous areas are located. I guarantee that you can put your finger on a map and one of those folks can say whether or not 3 days is enough. It may help you plan a better route to work within the guidelines that you have put forth. We know the PLB works, but you should also know the probability of the local SAR will make it to any of your locations in the time you allow.
Furthermore, I know that the local SAR teams around here have Jeeps that are properly modified for the existing terrain that they encure, your local team may even be able to inteligently comment on your Jeep and set up.
Sufficient Water
HI JLH9,
I'm not at all sure you are right about most everybody agreeing with my PLB/3 day plan. But I'm glad you do. I have become convinced that my plan is the best for almost anybody in a deep desert survival situation. For most, attempting to walk out is suicide. Is this the most common mistake? Might be. Panic tends to cause mistakes.
After all the discussion about the three day plan and the need to carry sufficient water in a desert situation, I made the statement that I probably would not need to carry any water at all. No one contradicted me. I was surprised. In truth, this statement was based on a fact deeply buried in my memory. It was a fuzzy memory. I was not really sure about it. I decided that such an important topic deserved some research.
I found this information on the internet. As you can see, the no water scenario is realistic for a three day plan even in high desert and high desert temperatures (100 deg F). The ground rules to make it work is to not be active (no walk out!) and stay in the shade. My plan always included shade as part of my survival kit. Take a look.
As you can see, for temperatures of 100 deg F, 5 days survival is predicted without any water intake. This fits with my three day plan. In the high desert 100 deg F is a realistic high. However, the low deserts commonly reach 110 deg F and only 3 days survival is predicted with no water. This is certainly a case where water would be necessary to assure survival. I have always planned to carry water. The question that was hammered was would the water be available if it stayed with the vehicle; or if I was injured could I reach the water. I'll admit that there are scenarios where vehicle located water may not be available though, I think, very unlikely. And, don't discount a refrigerator full of soft drinks.
I have to assure you that I will not be driving in the deep desert regions in the low desert in summer. Too hot to be worth doing (110 deg F). That's just nuts. But the high deserts are very much a possibility. In fact, I do it every year. Even so, I really try to avoid August, the hottest month. It's just not comfortable. So, it seems that the PLB/3 day plan is realistic even with no water.
Don't misunderstand. I am not suggesting that water is left at home. Not at all. I'm just suggesting that in the worst case that I would subject myself to, having no water for 3 days is a realistic survival strategy.
BTW, New Mexico Search and Rescue has a goal for each rescue. They attempt to rescue within 12 hours after notification. They are also very enthusiastic about PLB's. The chief of the unit felt that my PLB/3 day plan is completely realistic.
Sparky
HI JLH9,
I'm not at all sure you are right about most everybody agreeing with my PLB/3 day plan. But I'm glad you do. I have become convinced that my plan is the best for almost anybody in a deep desert survival situation. For most, attempting to walk out is suicide. Is this the most common mistake? Might be. Panic tends to cause mistakes.
After all the discussion about the three day plan and the need to carry sufficient water in a desert situation, I made the statement that I probably would not need to carry any water at all. No one contradicted me. I was surprised. In truth, this statement was based on a fact deeply buried in my memory. It was a fuzzy memory. I was not really sure about it. I decided that such an important topic deserved some research.
I found this information on the internet. As you can see, the no water scenario is realistic for a three day plan even in high desert and high desert temperatures (100 deg F). The ground rules to make it work is to not be active (no walk out!) and stay in the shade. My plan always included shade as part of my survival kit. Take a look.
As you can see, for temperatures of 100 deg F, 5 days survival is predicted without any water intake. This fits with my three day plan. In the high desert 100 deg F is a realistic high. However, the low deserts commonly reach 110 deg F and only 3 days survival is predicted with no water. This is certainly a case where water would be necessary to assure survival. I have always planned to carry water. The question that was hammered was would the water be available if it stayed with the vehicle; or if I was injured could I reach the water. I'll admit that there are scenarios where vehicle located water may not be available though, I think, very unlikely. And, don't discount a refrigerator full of soft drinks.
I have to assure you that I will not be driving in the deep desert regions in the low desert in summer. Too hot to be worth doing (110 deg F). That's just nuts. But the high deserts are very much a possibility. In fact, I do it every year. Even so, I really try to avoid August, the hottest month. It's just not comfortable. So, it seems that the PLB/3 day plan is realistic even with no water.
Don't misunderstand. I am not suggesting that water is left at home. Not at all. I'm just suggesting that in the worst case that I would subject myself to, having no water for 3 days is a realistic survival strategy.
BTW, New Mexico Search and Rescue has a goal for each rescue. They attempt to rescue within 12 hours after notification. They are also very enthusiastic about PLB's. The chief of the unit felt that my PLB/3 day plan is completely realistic.
Sparky
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LandCruiserPhil
Expedition Leader
1leglance
2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
As an icu rn who sees plenty of border crossers found down in the desert I can say that while you might "survive" w/out water for 3the daysthat doesn't mean you will be very happy about your kidney, heart or brain damage.
why is it so hard to keep multiple water sources?
having a couple of 1.5L bottles in your ditch bag is nothing.
also while I agree that a plb is great Sparky you have yet to respond to all the reasons I listed as to what can wrong even if you have a plb and some reasons why I like the Spot better.
Anyway, you have a plan and I hope it all works out well for you.
why is it so hard to keep multiple water sources?
having a couple of 1.5L bottles in your ditch bag is nothing.
also while I agree that a plb is great Sparky you have yet to respond to all the reasons I listed as to what can wrong even if you have a plb and some reasons why I like the Spot better.
Anyway, you have a plan and I hope it all works out well for you.
scottishpinz
Adventurer
Karma, I think there may be a flaw with your plan, and it is simply that survival is not about planning, but preparing. You do not plan to be in a survival situation, however you can prepare. You are well prepared for 3 days with an immobilized vehicle. Are you prepared for any other situations?
Survival is just that, dying is NEVER an option!
Survival is just that, dying is NEVER an option!
HI 1leglance,
Well, I think the idea of a couple of bottles of water is a good idea. I plan to do it. According to what I have read, issues with dehydration are quickly repaired after hydration. At the three day level I don't think serious dehydration is a dire threat; dire being the operative word. Beyond three days then your issues may become a problem. However, I am convinced that three days is adequate.
As for SPOT verses PLB, EVERYTHING I have read says the PLB is the better, more reliable system. Without personal experience I can't say much more than that.
And this is the most important point. If my PLB breaks, in scenarios I have defined, I'm dead. Walking out is simply not an option. You continue to bang on that point and I don't understand. I believe your advice is dangerous if it involves a walk out as I think you are advocating. You are advocating the maximum risk approach. The PLB is my only lifeline. I think all of your PLB arguments are so low on the probability scale that they are not worthy of consideration. That is why I did not respond tho them. Could my PLB break? Sure. Anything is possible. The Sun could quit shinning. Anything we imagine is possible. The question is whether it is probable. I can't plan for those remote possibilities. I must plan for realistic probabilities. No survival plan is perfect from the point of view of what is possible. What is realistic is planning around what is probable. That's what I'm trying to do.
You should check the relative merits of the two systems. I think there really is no comparison. The SPOT system is for amateurs, PLB is for real rescue. Call the PLB the professional solution. The price comparison between the two systems underline this difference. I'll stick with my PLB. You can do what you want.
Do not extend my logic into ridiculous realms as some on this thread have tried to do to prove their point. Obviously, if there is a known road a couple of miles away, of course I will go for it. That's not what I'm talking about when I say "walking out" and you know that. I set my survival scenario to include a worst case of 50 miles into the deep desert. With this scenario, I am planing my survival kit and strategy. While you seem to think that walking out is realistic I strongly disagree. I think you are DEAD wrong and are being irresponsible. Sorry. I think you should reevaluate your ideas.
The S&R people I have talked to in last few days agree with me.
1. Stay put
2. Activate the PLB
3. Administer First Aid if injured
4. Stay in shade
5. Remain inactive
6. Remain hydrated if possible
7. Wait for the posse (three days is more than adequate)
8. DO NOT WALK OUT!
Please understand that I appreciate you input and your obvious concern. I think you are one of the best on this thread. If I seem dismissive I'm sorry. It's just that we are talking about life and death situations. It is not a subject where being PC is appropriate. Honesty and seeking truth is the real objective. Your input has caused me to delve deeper into the survival problem. I am grateful. That I come to different conclusions you should be grateful. You have found that I am capable of critical thinking. Clearly, you are extending my survival scenario into a more general case. I will not follow you. I will stick to what makes sense to me and what seems appropriate for my situation. And I think I am right for my stated case. For the more general survival situation. I think you are right. The general case is not appropriate for my scenario. Again, thanks very much.
Sparky
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Lostmanifesto
Traveler
For the next few days you can download every issue of Self Reliancd Illustrated Magazine. Plenty of great survival stuff. Grab them while you can.
http://www.selfrelianceillustrated.com/free.htm
http://www.selfrelianceillustrated.com/free.htm
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
Sparky,
As someone who travels and lives in the harsh environs of the desert, that "stay put" plan is great advice. That said, I would make modest preparations to be able to move your location, even if just a few hundred feet. I think the walk out notion has been over blown in this thread. Being moderately mobile isn't the same as walking out. Some mobility is a good thing. The desert provides very little relief, but it is possible to find superior protection from the elements AWAY from your vehicle. That said, it may not even have to be out of site of your vehicle. I've traveled along the edges of the Sahara and I can see why "stay put" makes sense. In that landscape where are you going to go? In the southwest, it is possible for your vehicle to break in the most exposed and inconvenient of places. Or, as others have said, something could happen to your Jeep and all of its contents. Being able to move away from your vehicle with those essential survival supplies (just a short distance) might be a safer bet, or even a forced decision.
Just as an example, in Alaska a pair of backpackers were stranded when one of the two broke her leg. They were in the thick of the rain forest and while planes were flying overhead about ever 30 minutes, none of them could see through the dense trees. One hiker walked by himself less than a mile to a river where he laid out an orange space blanket in clear view of the sky. They were found within the hour.
Flexibility can be your most important survival tool.
As someone who travels and lives in the harsh environs of the desert, that "stay put" plan is great advice. That said, I would make modest preparations to be able to move your location, even if just a few hundred feet. I think the walk out notion has been over blown in this thread. Being moderately mobile isn't the same as walking out. Some mobility is a good thing. The desert provides very little relief, but it is possible to find superior protection from the elements AWAY from your vehicle. That said, it may not even have to be out of site of your vehicle. I've traveled along the edges of the Sahara and I can see why "stay put" makes sense. In that landscape where are you going to go? In the southwest, it is possible for your vehicle to break in the most exposed and inconvenient of places. Or, as others have said, something could happen to your Jeep and all of its contents. Being able to move away from your vehicle with those essential survival supplies (just a short distance) might be a safer bet, or even a forced decision.
Just as an example, in Alaska a pair of backpackers were stranded when one of the two broke her leg. They were in the thick of the rain forest and while planes were flying overhead about ever 30 minutes, none of them could see through the dense trees. One hiker walked by himself less than a mile to a river where he laid out an orange space blanket in clear view of the sky. They were found within the hour.
Flexibility can be your most important survival tool.