EPA Diesel Engine “Delete Tuning” Crackdown...Is It Here Now?

[phsycle]

Not that I give a ton of credibility to these guys, but this whole notion of diesel being more efficient....not really that impressive. Same result in midsize platform as well. Diesel TQ is nice for real heavy towing, which is the only reason I'd get one. But I don't plan on towing 10k+ on a regular basis.

 

[Bayou Boy]

Half ton diesels aren’t designed to “out tow” gas engines like their HD counterparts. They are designed for economy plain and simple and they absolutely crush it at that.


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[Dalko43]

Not that I give a ton of credibility to these guys, but this whole notion of diesel being more efficient....not really that impressive. Same result in midsize platform as well. Diesel TQ is nice for real heavy towing, which is the only reason I'd get one. But I don't plan on towing 10k+ on a regular basis.

A) comparing apples to apples (in terms of torque and capabilities) Diesel engines are absolutely more efficient than gasoline engines. The new crop of 3.0l diesels being put into 1/2 tons are capable of getting 30mpg and beyond on the highway. Comparable gasoline engines aren’t even close to that.

B) diesel torque is good for a lot of things besides just towing, like: off-roading, carrying payload, crawling over terrain, long distance trips (all activities which seemingly have relevance to the overland application).

The hilux’s 2.4l diesel, while nothing special in terms of top end horsepower, was an absolute blast to have for my long distance trip through Africa: engine had torque readily available for pretty much anything i needed and it was quiet, dare I say even pleasant sounding, during steady state highway cruises. The Toyota gasser 3.5l v6 and 4.0l v6’s are much louder and more over-worked by comparison. And yes ford and fca now offer turbo gassers which offer better low end torque, but the mpg gains over na v6’s and v8’s are marginal at best.

Over here in the states, we have Monday morning quarterbacks claiming that diesel is on its deathbed....everywhere else, people would think you’re crazy to put anything but a diesel into a truck or 4x4.


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[Todd n Natalie]

Half ton diesels aren’t designed to “out tow” gas engines like their HD counterparts. They are designed for economy plain and simple and they absolutely crush it at that.


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Agreed. But when your upfront cost, maintenance and the price of diesel is higher than regular gas, what the advantage?

I can go 1,000 kms / 620 miles in my gas 1/2 ton with a 36 gallon tank. How much more range do I need?

If diesel was cheaper than regular gas (like it used to be) the higher up front cost may wash out.

 

[phsycle]

A) comparing apples to apples (in terms of torque and capabilities) Diesel engines are absolutely more efficient than gasoline engines. The new crop of 3.0l diesels being put into 1/2 tons are capable of getting 30mpg and beyond on the highway. Comparable gasoline engines aren’t even close to that.

B) diesel torque is good for a lot of things besides just towing, like: off-roading, carrying payload, crawling over terrain, long distance trips (all activities which seemingly have relevance to the overland application).

The hilux’s 2.4l diesel, while nothing special in terms of top end horsepower, was an absolute blast to have for my long distance trip through Africa: engine had torque readily available for pretty much anything i needed and it was quiet, dare I say even pleasant sounding, during steady state highway cruises. The Toyota gasser 3.5l v6 and 4.0l v6’s are much louder and more over-worked by comparison. And yes ford and fca now offer turbo gassers which offer better low end torque, but the mpg gains over na v6’s and v8’s are marginal at best.

Over here in the states, we have Monday morning quarterbacks claiming that diesel is on its deathbed....everywhere else, people would think you’re crazy to put anything but a diesel into a truck or 4x4.


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I'll give you the range in the diesels. It'd be nice to carry less fuel traversing the same distance. I will say, though, 30MPG is doable in an ecodiesel as much as 26-27mpg is doable in a 2.7 Ecoboost. Some people can do it, but not all. And really, the ~10% difference.....is that really that significant? Perhaps to some.

Also, I've never really felt gas engines were a hindrance off-road (may even be preferred, as the PW comes only in gas). 4Lo, 1st gear, the lowly Camry engine'd Tacoma crawled right up 13k ft trails in CO. If it's geared right, you'll be just fine.

Lastly, it's not just in the US that are looking towards the future. MB has already said they've designed the last ICE. Everything is going electric (or some other alt source). Diesel sales are dropping worldwide.

 

[Bayou Boy]

Agreed. But when your upfront cost, maintenance and the price of diesel is higher than regular gas, what the advantage?

I can go 1,000 kms / 620 miles in my gas 1/2 ton with a 36 gallon tank. How much more range do I need?

If diesel was cheaper than regular gas (like it used to be) the higher up front cost may wash out.

While the range may be adequate empty, it becomes a serious problem loaded or towing. I realize that’s contrary to my prior comment but I own a 3500 and not a half ton. On my Thanksgiving trip through southern New Mexico my range pulling my camper was a PITA. It would have been even more difficult if my truck had a 6.4 gas engine.


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[plumber mike]

Agreed. But when your upfront cost, maintenance and the price of diesel is higher than regular gas, what the advantage?

I can go 1,000 kms / 620 miles in my gas 1/2 ton with a 36 gallon tank. How much more range do I need?

If diesel was cheaper than regular gas (like it used to be) the higher up front cost may wash out.

It used to be that diesel would use much less fuel at idle...all day long. Now it’s not recommended. It used to be easier to run other oils mixed with the diesel back when the fuel delivery system wasn’t quite so sensitive.
You still get the safety aspect as it’s not explosive. Makes it much easier to increase range with a farm/ranch refueling tank.
I guess I don’t see the additional oil change costs as being that big a deal. I can change my diesel oil for the price I’d pay someone to do an oil change on a gasser.
What I’ve grown to enjoy about diesel is the torque. Just truly drama free. No downshift and rev to the moon experience on slight inclines. Going down the highway at 16-1700 rpm “feels” better to me.

 

[phsycle]

While the range may be adequate empty, it becomes a serious problem loaded or towing. I realize that’s contrary to my prior comment but I own a 3500 and not a half ton. On my Thanksgiving trip through southern New Mexico my range pulling my camper was a PITA. It would have been even more difficult if my truck had a 6.4 gas engine.


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What was the range/MPG, out of curiosity? Ram really needs to outfit these rigs with bigger tanks.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

While the range may be adequate empty, it becomes a serious problem loaded or towing. I realize that’s contrary to my prior comment but I own a 3500 and not a half ton. On my Thanksgiving trip through southern New Mexico my range pulling my camper was a PITA. It would have been even more difficult if my truck had a 6.4 gas engine.


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Sorry, I was referring to your comment about 1/2 ton diesels being about economy.

Understood and agree about towing. Just not sure if the few times I tow per year would warrant a diesel for me. A diesel for me would have to be about efficiency / economy on a day to day basis.

 

[Dalko43]

I'll give you the range in the diesels. It'd be nice to carry less fuel traversing the same distance. I will say, though, 30MPG is doable in an ecodiesel as much as 26-27mpg is doable in a 2.7 Ecoboost. Some people can do it, but not all. And really, the ~10% difference.....is that really that significant? Perhaps to some.

Also, I've never really felt gas engines were a hindrance off-road (may even be preferred, as the PW comes only in gas). 4Lo, 1st gear, the lowly Camry engine'd Tacoma crawled right up 13k ft trails in CO. If it's geared right, you'll be just fine.

Lastly, it's not just in the US that are looking towards the future. MB has already said they've designed the last ICE. Everything is going electric (or some other alt source). Diesel sales are dropping worldwide.

30 mpg is more than doable in the new 3.0l v6 from fca and the in-line 3.0l our out by GM. The only 1/2 ton gasoline engine that even comes close is the 2.7l ecoboost, which isn’t exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Gearing can help mitigate lack of torque with gassers, but that’s a bandaid at best. The reality is that lower gearing tanks your already subpar mpg and the 3.5l really loses itself when it needs to pull/haul any significant amount of weight. It’s not a torquey engine, nor is it all that more efficient over the 4.0l it replaced.

ICE isn’t going away anytime soon and EV’s still have a lot of growing pains to undergo before they become common place. Passenger cars might be moving away from diesel, though Europe and the global markets still have lots of them. For trucks and 4x4’s, diesel will remain the preferred power plant for many years to come.


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[Dalko43]

Sorry, I was referring to your comment about 1/2 ton diesels being about economy.

Understood and agree about towing. Just not sure if the few times I tow per year would warrant a diesel for me. A diesel for me would have to be about efficiency / economy on a day to day basis.

It’s not just about towing. Anytime you need to crawl over rough terrain, turn bigger tires or haul a payload, you’ll want torque...the ecoboost engines certainly provide decent torque, but their range suffers tremendously when providing it.

A 2.4l Toyota diesel went through water crossings, up and down inclines, highway driving, rough roads in 4 low all while carrying at least 1k lbs of gear and people, with 2 RTT’s and wearing aggressive A/T’s....it still returned an average of 23mpg, in some cases much better. I can’t think of any gasser, turbo or otherwise, which would provide similar performance and efficiency.


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[nickw]

It’s not just about towing. Anytime you need to crawl over rough terrain, turn bigger tires or haul a payload, you’ll want torque...the ecoboost engines certain provide decent torque, but their range suffers tremendously when providing it.

A 2.4l Toyota diesel went through water crossings, up and down inclines, highway driving, rough roads in 4 low all while carrying at least 1k lbs of gear and people, with 2 RTT’s and wearing aggressive A/T’s....it still returned an average of 23mpg, in some cases much better. I can’t think of any gasser, turbo or otherwise, which would provide similar performance and efficiency.


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You'll want HP and the gears you have in your Tcase and Trans.

Diesels absolutely get better economy, but offroad gas rigs are every bit as capable, if not more.

That 2.4 diesel would fall on its face relative to a modern gas engine that has 100 hp more someplace like the dunes or high speed cruising.

 

[shade]

For as much as diesel power is touted for its off-road superiority, why isn't it commonly chosen to power purpose built off-road vehicles?

 

[luthj]

The are heavy!

 

[Deleted member 9101]

I don't think some guy with EFI live and a laptop will be able to outdo the top engineers at some of the largest automotive OEMs AND come in under EPA targets.

OEM engineers are good... But not great. They work in a world of compromises. "Tuners" have been one upping the OEMs for many years.