F?R LSD'S??? Opinions, thoughts, experiences???

[4Rescue]

So as I'm looking at my finaly worn out tires and contemplating what to run now, I realize I'll also be re-gearing and that at this point I mihgt as well fix those silly open diffs. That being said, I don't really have the funds to run ARB's and while there's always the E-locker I could throw in the rear, I was aslo thinking about running F/R LSD's.

Part of my thinking on this is that the cost will be very low, and whole it won't quite be as good as a selectable locker or even a Detroit off-road it'll be alot nicer in 4wd in the snow which this truck see's alot and in reality with both diff's equiped with an LSD, my feeling is it'll do a lot more then it will now while impacting the On-Road or even the 4wd Hi charesteristics very little.

I've run F/R detriots in a few of my old XJ's and it really wasn't that bad on the road althgouh I got tired of the tire wear. Those Jeeps made enough noises of their own let alone the rear-end poping Where they really weren't that fun was in the snow where it liked to slide off anything even slightly off-camber and really were it not for the selec-trac in my last XJ that I ran them in and my ability to unlock the center diff, I'd have just run open diffs cause I saw alot more snow then trail time in that truck towards the end.

I'm going with 4.88's to match some 33x9/10.50's and really, new tires alone will do alot for this rigs ability off-road as it is, but I thought that having an LSD F/R would be good for nearly all kinds of use. I'm not turning this truck into a trail toy, but I figure with 33's, LSD's, and all that factory graced ground-clearence I got from running a Toyota (and my OME/BJ spacer suspension) I figure she'll be pretty capable and kind of a sleeper really.

So has anyone run this set-up? Am I better off just throwing the E-locker in the rear and leaving the front alone? Will I regret going with anything BUT a selectable locker up front?


Cheers

Dave

 

[ntsqd]

IF you are determined to put something in both axles I'd suggest dual Tru-Tracs. Ed Wong on the old ORC yota list has run them for years. Most of his driving is/was Easy Coast forest service roads (driven rally style!!), but when the trail got rough and a lifted tire started to spin he used the trailing left foot braking technique and said it worked.

Were it me I'd be really inclined to leave front alone in the diff dept and concentrate the diff funds on the rear. An E-locker or an ARB would be my choices. I started out deciding that I wanted F/R ARB's in my 60, but I'm starting to to wonder how long it will take to "pay off" the front ARB.

 

[instantninja]

I'm also going to throw my vote in for the truetracs. being gear driven rather than a clutch type there is very little maintenance to it. and like ntsqd said, you can use your brake to "load" it and it will keep you moving forward.
if your not going to go selectable locker, truetracs are the way to go.

 

[Desert Dan]

I would go with a Toyota locker in the rear and maybe an ARB in the front.

Since you are doing ring and pinons you might as well add the lockers now.

I used to figure $1000/axle for gears, locker and labor.

 

[corax]

why run a tru-trac when you can have an OEM Toyota torsen LSD for junkyard prices? mkIII supra's inthe 90-91 version came with a helical/torsen LSD as did the is300 . . . both of which used the 8" toyota diffs.

I like my 83 Celica Supra LSD up front and I'll probably be going with a clutch type supra LSD in the rear fairly soon . . . with the clutch type you won't need to "load up" the diff with some fancy foot work to get it to engage (torsen LSDs act like an open diff with one tire in the air unless you give them a bit of brake or e-brake to engage)

The front/7.5" LSD is mostly transparent, meaning you really don't notice it on the trail, though I can tell it does help when the rear start to break loose - if you're looking for max traction, you might want a locker of some sort. I like running high speed dirt sometimes though and didn't want the steering quirks that come with an auto locker (it'll lock and cause the truck to "push" if you try to accelerate through a turn, best to coast through a turn from what I hear) nor did I want the expense of an ARB. I am looking to beef it up and make it better though with this kit <- adds the clutch plates that are splined to the side gear which the factory original ones didn't have, much better engagement
BTW, here's The *official* 7.5" Supra LSD into a IFS diff thread

here's teh is300 torsen LSD and what you need to know about the axle code

 

[Applejack]

I ran F/R Trutracs in my '99 4runner and found it to be a great combo, much better than the single locking diff + ATRAC in my current Taco. Wheels up? No problem at all!! Because you have two wheels down at one end or the other. The engagement of the truetracs was very transparent. The only thing I did not like was the way it would "crab walk" on some slick muddy or snowy hill. You need to just punch it in those situations and not try to walk it up. For rock crawling this would not be the best way to go, but in the little that I did, they handled it decently. I've run the clutch driven LSD's before and never cared much for their wet or slick road performance. I never once had any surprises with the truetracs.

 

[valkyrie]

If you can afford it, opt for selectable lockers. You will have maximum control and often the ability to disengage lockers is just as important as being able to engage them.

 

[4Rescue]

why run a tru-trac when you can have an OEM Toyota torsen LSD for junkyard prices? mkIII supra's inthe 90-91 version came with a helical/torsen LSD as did the is300 . . . both of which used the 8" toyota diffs.

I like my 83 Celica Supra LSD up front and I'll probably be going with a clutch type supra LSD in the rear fairly soon . . . with the clutch type you won't need to "load up" the diff with some fancy foot work to get it to engage (torsen LSDs act like an open diff with one tire in the air unless you give them a bit of brake or e-brake to engage)

The front/7.5" LSD is mostly transparent, meaning you really don't notice it on the trail, though I can tell it does help when the rear start to break loose - if you're looking for max traction, you might want a locker of some sort. I like running high speed dirt sometimes though and didn't want the steering quirks that come with an auto locker (it'll lock and cause the truck to "push" if you try to accelerate through a turn, best to coast through a turn from what I hear) nor did I want the expense of an ARB. I am looking to beef it up and make it better though with this kit <- adds the clutch plates that are splined to the side gear which the factory original ones didn't have, much better engagement
BTW, here's The *official* 7.5" Supra LSD into a IFS diff thread

here's teh is300 torsen LSD and what you need to know about the axle code

I had forgotten about these... This makes the idea even more tempting as it means a lower buy in price. Thanks for the link and advice mate. I was just reading your build thread over on Yotatech.com, nice truck (i'm assuming it's the same Corax eh...). I like the sound of running toyota parts over anything else anyway so this is a good option. I'm also interested in moding them to bnite a bit ahrder (at least the rear LSD that is, the front I'll leave alone for now)

I ran F/R Trutracs in my '99 4runner and found it to be a great combo, much better than the single locking diff + ATRAC in my current Taco. Wheels up? No problem at all!! Because you have two wheels down at one end or the other. The engagement of the truetracs was very transparent. The only thing I did not like was the way it would "crab walk" on some slick muddy or snowy hill. You need to just punch it in those situations and not try to walk it up. For rock crawling this would not be the best way to go, but in the little that I did, they handled it decently. I've run the clutch driven LSD's before and never cared much for their wet or slick road performance. I never once had any surprises with the truetracs.

See this is what I'm talking about... THis truck is hardly a crawler, so if the F/R Tru-Trac combo (or Toyota LSD) does in fact help I think I may go for it. I figure I can get her into some awsome places just by picking my lines ever so carefully, but with the added traction of the LSD I feel I'd be able to make it farther on some of my local trails and still have a truly drivable truck all the same

As for the "crabbing" was it as bad as a fully locked rig??? I don't do alot of snowwheeling but I do go up to Mt. Hood quite alot and I'd hate to have something that behaves terribly driving along in the snow. THat's said, I'm a fairly smooth driver and really the key in my experience , to not sliding off the road with dual lockers is to use the skinny pedal in moderation. SO with the LSD's I'd guess if you're not spinning tires it'll be ok on teh highway even in 4wd.

If you can afford it, opt for selectable lockers. You will have maximum control and often the ability to disengage lockers is just as important as being able to engage them.

As I originaly said, I just can't swing the buy-in price of an ARB (and in that case I'd only have 1 Axle with a traction aid in it) I'd love to belive me, I had the fortune of living in Australia where ARB is sold at farm suply stores adn everything has a Bull Bar and F/R lockers... I truly loved my ARB's in my 70 Series UTE and would love to run tehm F/R in my 4 Runner... Maybe if I find a Pyramid scheme to get in at the top of...


Cheers

Dave

 

[valkyrie]

Sorry Dave- by selectable locker I meant anything selectable... not just an ARB. So an e-locker would fit the bill. I think you will find however, that in the end an ARB is a smaller investment in time and money than an e-locker, and in addition you get a source of compressed air.

I have a fair amount of experience driving Toyotas off road, so here's my .02:

Locking an 89 4R up front is probably unnecessary for your application, and despite what others have said, it is not hard to do at a later date. Easier while you regear, certainly... but I would advise against making the convenience of immediate gratification override the decision to get the best you can when you can afford it.

The 2nd gen 4Runner IFS setup is one of the worst designs Toyota ever had, period. The steering relay rods are spindly and prone to failure- to that point that Toyota still has (or had as recently as last year) a standing recall replacement of them 20 years later. I have seen them bind & bend on both open & locked rigs.

Although the CV's are quite stout, I would suggest swapping manual hubs for an added margin of safety (if yours doesn't already have them, I can't remember when they went to a drive-flange/ADD setup).

I would suggest contacting Phil at Toyota of Dallas/TRDParts4U (Strap22 on the forum- he has set-up, built & wheeled several 4Runners of that generation and can assist you greatly in not only setting it up, but getting great prices and service to build your suspension.

BTW, an LSD rear is a great choice for a vehicle that spends most of it's time on roads subject to inclement weather, but it's benefits pale when it's used up front for off-road purposes, for the reasons stated above.

You want a good mix of performance and value? ARB rear, lockright front. The front can still be considered "selectable" because in those rare occasions when you don't want the front locker on, you can always disengage one of your manual hubs. In all actuality, if you really want locked in the front and are really scrimping, you can just convert to manual hubs weld the front spiders together... cost = 0.

 

[4Rescue]

Very familliar with Strapp22 and TRD patrts, that's where I got my OME set-up and I LOVED their service so I'm with you on that one.

Got manual Hubs so I'm set there. I've got an inverter and an electric compressor so for the time being I don't need another source of air for trail fixes.

My big want is to have something kind of in the middle of a complete trail rig (had alot of XJ's that fit that bill) and a bone stocker. For price invested, I'm thinking that the LSD's will give me more traction when I need it, but not have the drawbacks of a completely auto-locker. I know all about unlocking a hub with an auto-locker and while it kind of works... I hardly consider it a fix/solutiobn as it has it's drawbacks/limitations...

Steering... Yeah, it's the known weak point on theswe trucks but all in all the High-trac IFS is far from the worst IFS system ever made... TTB comes to mind in that respect as does the New-gen "coil-over" Toyota set-up. Steering is weak yes, but all in all the IFS is fairly robust for what it is.

Thanks ofr all the advise folks, I love this place.

Cheers

Dave

 

[dyogim]

I have a detroit locker in the rear and love it. Hardly notice it's there. For the front I have a lock right locker. On the ice it's sketchy and is the only road condition that freaks me out sometimes. I would love to swap the lock right out for a Detroit truetrac. My rig sees mostly paved roads and is a daily driver.

Having selectable hubs is nice but, having to unlock and lock when on the trail is a bit of a pain. Especially in wet/cold conditions.

ARB's are definitely durable and I'm not discounting them but, the cost and additional equipment needed for it just turned me off.

 

[ntsqd]

I can't say that I'm all that fond of clutch-type LSD's, but in this application it looks to me like the low cost option worth trying. Can always swap it out if it does not work in a desirable manner. The cost to set up a different diff should be far less than the cost of setting up the ring & pinion. It is something that can be done at home with a dial indicator. So if that is an option then the worst that going clutch LSD and not liking it would cost would be the price of the junkyard LSD plus gear lube and some gasket making material, and maybe some time on a press to swap the carrier bearings over to a Tru-Trac or what ever you decide to try next.

I don't know that there is such a thing as the "Worst IFS ever built." Context is everything.
In the case of the TTB look at desert racing. It is far from the worst and close to the best for that use. I'll venture that such a situation can be found for most all of the IFS designs.

Something like TC's idler arm would go a long ways towards fixing the idler arm issue. Couple that with, if they'd fit, going to tie rods made up using FJ80 TRE's and I think that would leave the center link as the sole weak link. That is solvable with some custom fabrication, and isn't normally a wear part so replacement parts shouldn't be too big of an issue.

 

[4Rescue]

I have a detroit locker in the rear and love it. Hardly notice it's there. For the front I have a lock right locker. On the ice it's sketchy and is the only road condition that freaks me out sometimes. I would love to swap the lock right out for a Detroit truetrac. My rig sees mostly paved roads and is a daily driver.

Having selectable hubs is nice but, having to unlock and lock when on the trail is a bit of a pain. Especially in wet/cold conditions.

ARB's are definitely durable and I'm not discounting them but, the cost and additional equipment needed for it just turned me off.

Yeah, I had F/R Detroits in one of my XJ's and frankly in the slushy Ice/Snow we get here in teh NW, that selectable center diff/FT 4wd in the 242 T-Case was a god send for keeping it on the road. I also found that the rear Detroit wasn't that bad, plus I have a 22RE so it's not like I can break the tires loose at a whim like I could with the 4.0L eh ...

This is making it all so much harder to decide, do I go Detroit in the rear and then a Celica/Supra LSD in front??? I would really like to do an E-Locker or ARB in teh rear, but again, the funds just aren't there at the moment. I like having buttons in my cab HAHAHAHA There was however a great point made about my wanting a quick fix overriding my good descision making. That is a comletely valid point

Unless I have the funds to go with an ARB or eventualy SAS and go E-locker in teh future, I will not be lockinng the front. LSD, maybe, but auto front Lockers on IFS tend to make things go boom and leads to scary steering IMO with a locked Center diff/non-"multi-mode" T-case.

Again, thanks to all of you who have thrown in your opinions and experiences no matter what they are or if I agree with them. What makes this board great is all the different experiences and view-points that are out there and the truly mature way that they're put forward on this board. this really is my favorite place on the internet... Thanks to all and Tanks to the Mods/Admins for keeping this great site up and running.

Cheers

Dave

 

[valkyrie]

I don't know that there is such a thing as the "Worst IFS ever built." Context is everything.

You are correct, thank you. I was speaking within the context of my Toyota world.

Other manufacturers may offer crappier designs that I am currently unfamiliar with.

eepwall:

 

[4Rescue]

I can't say that I'm all that fond of clutch-type LSD's, but in this application it looks to me like the low cost option worth trying. Can always swap it out if it does not work in a desirable manner. The cost to set up a different diff should be far less than the cost of setting up the ring & pinion. It is something that can be done at home with a dial indicator. So if that is an option then the worst that going clutch LSD and not liking it would cost would be the price of the junkyard LSD plus gear lube and some gasket making material, and maybe some time on a press to swap the carrier bearings over to a Tru-Trac or what ever you decide to try next.

I don't know that there is such a thing as the "Worst IFS ever built." Context is everything.
In the case of the TTB look at desert racing. It is far from the worst and close to the best for that use. I'll venture that such a situation can be found for most all of the IFS designs.

Something like TC's idler arm would go a long ways towards fixing the idler arm issue. Couple that with, if they'd fit, going to tie rods made up using FJ80 TRE's and I think that would leave the center link as the sole weak link. That is solvable with some custom fabrication, and isn't normally a wear part so replacement parts shouldn't be too big of an issue.

Well put as always mate, and kind of exactly what I was thinking. At the worst I'm out a bit of money for the used Diff and a new Set-up if I decide I don't like it.

Cheers

Dave