Fiji Bottled Water - True Cost?

[Desertdude]

Leave it to Pepsi to convince many generations to pay more for water than gasoline per gallon. Water has become the path to gold for many...

That said, if I am thirsty or actually dying of thirst I will pay, but generally I like to filter, through reverse osmosis, my own water. I carry it with me in a 21 gallon tank in the back of my vehicle, pumping it out using the very same bottles I occasionally purchase for the thrill of being apart of the Pepsi generation...

 

[FortyMileDesert]

If everyone is true conservationist:

My thoughts on conservation of energy and less pollution - (just my $.02):

* Ship stuff ground instead of by air. The reason that it's cheaper, is that it takes way less energy to run a truck or two than a 747. Then there's also railroads.

* Bring back schoolbuses in affluent neigborhoods. A schoolbus takes way less energy to transport 40 little kids than 40 moms in 40 suvs.

*** I could go on, but..........

 

[RoundOut]

Mostly OT, but a bit pertinant

* Bring back schoolbuses in affluent neigborhoods. A schoolbus takes way less energy to transport 40 little kids than 40 moms in 40 suvs.

Bring back school uniforms, while we're at it. No more peer pressure, Goths, gangs, freaks, materialism.... Let the kids develop their personalities based on what is inside, not how much money their folks can afford on their wardrobe. Let them carry a fancy book bag, if they have to be different. Many of the parochial schools still employ a uniform policy for this very reason. Don't get me started.
ROFSheriffHL:

 

[whitethaiger]

..
Also noticed the author claims a 1 liter bottle uses 125 grams of PET. The heaviest 1 liter we currently produce weighs 33 grams...although we did at one time use a 37g preform for both a 1 liter and a 1.5 liter IIRC.

Got curious and just put an empty 1.25 liter plastic bottle for carbonated water on the kitchen scale: 58g including lid and label. Is Fiji water carbonated? If not they could probably use a less sturdy bottle like those 33g bottles. So that 125 is way out of line.

 

[Wanderlusty]

Reading this thread is making me thirsty. Anyone have some bottled water?:elkgrin:

 

[goodtimes]

Is Fiji water carbonated? If not they could probably use a less sturdy bottle like those 33g bottles. So that 125 is way out of line.

I don't think Fiji is carbonated. Even if it is, you can run carb in a 33 gram 1 liter, providing it has a 26 or 26mm neck finish. When you step up to the 38mm finish (like the 1 liter Global Swirl bottle that Pepsi uses), your weight goes up due to the amount of material in the neck.

We do a burst test on our 33 gram 1 liter bottles, minimum burst strength is around 140 psi. For non-carb you can run MUCH lighter. We used to produce a 15 gram 500mL water bottle, and have even ran trials as low as 12 gram. but once your wall thickness drops below ~.004", the bottles crush really easily...so you end up having to put alot of contours into the panels to regain the strength. Of course this drives the price of molds through the roof, which drives the cost of the finished bottle up, offsetting any cost savings from the lower resin cost.

 

[whitethaiger]

I don't think Fiji is carbonated. Even if it is, you can run carb in a 33 gram 1 liter, providing it has a 26 or 26mm neck finish. When you step up to the 38mm finish (like the 1 liter Global Swirl bottle that Pepsi uses), your weight goes up due to the amount of material in the neck.

We do a burst test on our 33 gram 1 liter bottles, minimum burst strength is around 140 psi. For non-carb you can run MUCH lighter. We used to produce a 15 gram 500mL water bottle, and have even ran trials as low as 12 gram. but once your wall thickness drops below ~.004", the bottles crush really easily...so you end up having to put alot of contours into the panels to regain the strength. Of course this drives the price of molds through the roof, which drives the cost of the finished bottle up, offsetting any cost savings from the lower resin cost.

Great info, I enjoy learning this stuff. Kind of like that Discovery Channel show "How it's Made"

Got another data point on plastic bottle weight: 1gal (~3.75l) juice bottle with lid and labels: 152g.

 

[DaveInDenver]

We do a burst test on our 33 gram 1 liter bottles, minimum burst strength is around 140 psi.

Several years ago ('94,'95 time frame) I was working for a place that did food and beverage packaging. One of the things we came up with was a LIN injector for non-carbonated drinks and Pepsi was our main user. They wanted to figure out a way to be able to (1) preserve the stuff better using the nitrogen to displace the air in the headspace and (b) stack the pallets higher (IIRC they usually wanted ~60 psi in the bottle). So we came up with this thing that would put a little squirt of liquid nitrogen in each bottle right before it was capped. Getting the charge right at first was interesting to say the least. Nitrogen expands about 650 times it's volume when it evaporates, so just a little will do ya. When the line would slow down, invariably one bottle would get a double shot and would blow up on the capper. I remember the Torrance, CA, 2L line was bad about this, we'd blow up bottles all over. I wonder if they're still using those things? I haven't been in a soft drink plant in years now. Ah, good times, goodtimes.

 

[goodtimes]

Nitrogen dosers are still in use, and yes, they still tend to blow up bottles if the line backs up....speaking of blowing up bottles....drop a couple of dry ice pellets into a empty 2 liter bottle, pour in a couple inches of water, cap it, set it outside of the cycle counters door and run like hell. :sombrero:

 

[DaktariEd]

Yup! Always cracks me up watching people buying all that bottled water. Not only paying exorbitant prices, but thinking they are somehow "greener" (read, "better") than other people. :bowdown:

I get a number of 20 oz waters from WalMart once a year or two. The size is perfect for my Igloo icebox I carry in my truck, and my fanny pack bottle pouch. I refill each bottle over and over (with filtered water) until I break it, lose it, give it away, or whatever.

I chose a carbon block based water filter system rather than a reverse osmosis system because the RO wastes as much water as you are "purifying" in the process. This carbon block system is good enough that I used it successfully for years to filter water for a Reef Tank I kept at the time. For those of you who have had coral you know how very pure the water has to be to sustain the reef environment.

Works for me....and it makes me feel soooo GREEN!!!

:sombrero:

 

[Robthebrit]

I agree its stupid, water that costs more than gas? How did that happen? How can something that falls from the sky be valuable? And the stuff that falls from the sky is probably cleaner.

I know Sparkletts have been busted a few times by the FDA for having water that is not up to standard. Sparkletts is nothing but filtered domestic water, it say so on the bottle - "Sparkletts crystal fresh water is purified using microfiltration, reverse osmosis and ozonation (minerals added)"

Other than the minerals added isn't this water every decent water filter does? You can get just as clean, if not cleaner, water from an MSR filter and pond water.

The label goes on to say "Contains purified water and specially selected minerals for a clean fresh taste". Now then, call me crazy but do you really have to add things to make it 'taste clean and fresh'.

Rob

 

[mountainpete]

This has created a lot of great discussion! I have learned a great deal from following the thread.

But, I wanted to wait a bit before I answered the question myself. Does information like this sway MY purchase patterns?

The answer is yes.

Today I went to Safeway for lunch and picked a bottle of water off the shelf like I regularily do (it became a replacement for Coke and other soft drinks for me about a year ago). I actually looked at the bottle, thought of the discussion here and put it back on the shelf. It wasn't even a Fiji brand - it was a Safeway generic spring water. Instead I went back to the office and re-filled my Nalgene bottle from the tap. Not only does the water taste just as good, I saved myself about $1 and made myself feel good in the process.

I agree with the vast majority of comments posted so far. I can see flaws in the presented math big enough to drive a Unimog through. The author doesn't paint a true picture of the impacts. But the bottom line is that this information made me change my buying habits - at minimum for today. We'll see what happens next week.

Pete

 

[Ursidae69]

Yup! Always cracks me up watching people buying all that bottled water. Not only paying exorbitant prices, but thinking they are somehow "greener" (read, "better") than other people. :bowdown:

I don't agree, most of the "green" people I know drink well or tap water for free, that is the green thing to do. Only in America where 99% of our tap water is just fine, would something like bottled water go over so well.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I agree its stupid, water that costs more than gas? How did that happen? How can something that falls from the sky be valuable? And the stuff that falls from the sky is probably cleaner.

Yeah, that does seem counter intuitive, doesn't it? Bottled water is silly expensive. But the fact is in the western US that is the case and it's because there's not enough of it to go around. You guys out in SoCAL really should think about that. We're all at the mercy of how much snow we get here in the Rockies (and your Sierra Nevada) and you are sorta living on borrowed water. The Lower Basin states (primarily CA) have been getting unused water borrowed from the Upper Basin states for years. If a drought cycle became bad enough to drain the reservoirs completely, CA and SoAZ would be pretty much out of luck if CO, UT, NM and WY ever get to the point of using our full allocation.

The Colorado River is divided into Upper and Lower Basin allocations by the Colorado River Compact, each getting 7.5 million acre-feet. Upper states (mainly the source) are CO, NM, WY and UT, Lower states are CA, AZ and NV (primarily users, although some tributaries do flow in, like the Gila River in AZ). The problem is that around 1922, when the Compact was signed, the river was flowing between 15 and 20 million acre-feet and so they assumed it always would, but historically the river will vary as much as 5 to 25 million acre-feet. The Upper states haven't been able to always use the whole 7.5 million acre-feet, so under what's essentially a gentlemen's agreement we let the down river states use the excess. But we can legally at any time start using our allocation. To compound the problem we owe Mexico 1.5 million acre-feet, which it rarely gets. We do have the stored water, but a reduced flow of the Colorado River for long enough will drain them. Lake Powell was pretty low in 2003 and 2004 and that drought up here wasn't historically all that long.

Everyone in the 7 Colorado River states should read a book called Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner. It goes through the history of water and water rights in the West, with emphasis on the Colorado River and LA's William Mulholland and the LA water board. Water rights are probably one of the strongest legally defended things in the West, even over land and mineral rights in many cases. There's even a water court in most states and the US Supreme Court has heard arguments over use of the Colorado River, it's so important.

 

[DaktariEd]

I don't agree, most of the "green" people I know drink well or tap water for free, that is the green thing to do. Only in America where 99% of our tap water is just fine, would something like bottled water go over so well.

You're right, Chuck...it's not so much the "greenies" I should have been poking at but the folks who see themselves as "healthier" (or better, etc.) than folks who choose other drinks for their meals. It's that self-righteous attitude I respond to...

Funny thing is that some of these "healthier-than-thou" folks are going to end up dead sooner than a lot of us. There is medical evidence building that extreme diets (uber-healthy?) and too-low body weight may be factors in an early death, contrary to what these folks actually believe.

Now that doesn't directly relate to the topic at hand...

But paying those kind of exorbitant prices for bottled water on a regular basis just seems downright stupid!

Check out also the United Nations' study on bottled water around the world. Fully 25% of samples tested were nothing more than rebottled, non-purified tap water! (I'll look for the source/citation). :yikes: