Fireside Chat: Guns and a Culture of Violence?

Pskhaat

2005 Expedition Trophy Champion
DaktariEd said:
When I have been approached by parents about their children acting violently or aggressively...almost every case, we find the child witnessing violence

Ed, I have no doubt that witnessing the violence may self-incite, however, I have to take exception to the near rule. Though your comment certainly may need some further context, many studies suggest young children (ages 4-) show a suprising level of mild violence (hitting, kicking, wrestling) with verifyably no violent displays to watch.

As a father (I know you and others are too) I am a learned man every day watching my children do and say and formulate actions that I know for which they've never had examples. I think it is quite a lesson in human nature and the human condition.

I do however believe we as anamilistic humans have a very violent side independent of culture or nurture.
 

stevenmd

Expedition Leader
pskhaat said:
Ed, I have no doubt that witnessing the violence may self-incite, however, I have to take exception to the near rule. Though your comment certainly may need some further context, many studies suggest young children (ages 4-) show a suprising level of mild violence (hitting, kicking, wrestling) with verifyably no violent displays to watch.

As a father (I know you and others are too) I am a learned man every day watching my children do and say and formulate actions that I know for which they've never had examples. I think it is quite a lesson in human nature and the human condition.

I do however believe we as anamilistic humans have a very violent side independent of culture or nurture.
I agree with both you and Ed. Having worked in child protective services and foster care for more years than I care to count, most instances of a child acting violently are as a direct result of witnessing it first hand (I am NOT including media in this). However, on the reverse side, many many many more children grow up to be very well adjusted adults, having witnessed the same levels of violence as those who keep the circle going.

Perhaps what really needs to be looked at in this case is the child's ability to adapt in a way that is socially acceptable. But then again, it is difficult to measure the etiology of adaptability. This is something I have often hoped to measure in foster children ~ the ones who succeed in life are not the ones who get good grades or who stay out of trouble ~ it is the ones who have figured out a way to adapt in a way that is socially acceptable.
 

robert

Expedition Leader
Honestly I think most countries are probably more violent per capita than the US- we just have insane amounts of reporting and a strange fascination with dirty laundry. Different countries view “crime” differently that we do also- I watched a man strike his wife in Kuwait and no one gave it a second look. In countries where little value is placed on life, whether due to high health mortality rates or constant war, opinions will be far different than they are here also. As an example, our troops reluctance to shoot women and children in Iraq even when they are clearly a threat while the bad guys have no qualms about standing in a group of school children and opening up on a US patrol (often shooting the kids down themselves in the process). Suicide bombings are another example.

And just to mess with our friends across the pond who fancy themselves more enlightened- according to the UN, Scotland is the most violent country:

“The study found that, excluding murder, Scots were almost three times as likely to be assaulted as Americans.”
“The study, based on telephone interviews conducted between 1991 and 2000, said 3% of people in Scotland had suffered an assault, while the figure for England and Wales was second highest at 2.8%.
Both Australia and New Zealand had the next highest proportion of assaults among their population at 2.4%, exactly double the level reported for the United States.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

and here's one for South Africa http://english.people.com.cn/200211/18/eng20021118_106971.shtml
Incidentally, almost all of the people I've met from South Africa figured they would be leaving in 5-10 years as it goes the way of Rhodesia.

The US is 24th on this list of murders by country per capita http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Again, I question how accurate the reporting is in most other countries.


Additionally, including countries such as Japan and Switzerland (two pro/anti gun favorites) is flawed as both are very homogenous cultures- more so than most any other first world countries. Japan for example, has an extremely violent history. Not only in the way that they got rid of indigenous peoples as they settled the island but their history with the Chinese has been abominable. Most European countries have violent pasts also (and I'm not just talking about Germany in WWII); hacking people to death with a sword is quite gruesome.

I would venture that a big part of the problem now is that liberal mindset of victimization where people are told that they aren't responsible for their actions due to some defect in themselves which they can't help. People aren't taught that they and they alone, are responsible for their actions and that those actions have consequences nor are they forced to own up to and pay for those actions.
 
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Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
Haggis said:
Not to sound dense, but could you state what your definition of "gun culture" is.
Simply put I guess I see it as a community of people who in large part are fascinated by guns and the damage they can inflict.

Tools they may be, but in American society I think you will be hard pressed to find a tool which garners more admiration or worship.
 

kcowyo

ExPo Original
Lost Canadian said:
Tools they may be, but in American society I think you will be hard pressed to find a tool which garners more admiration or worship.

Macintosh?
 

DaktariEd

2005, 2006 Tech Course Champion: Expedition Trophy
pskhaat said:
Ed, I have no doubt that witnessing the violence may self-incite, however, I have to take exception to the near rule. Though your comment certainly may need some further context, many studies suggest young children (ages 4-) show a suprising level of mild violence (hitting, kicking, wrestling) with verifyably no violent displays to watch.

As a father (I know you and others are too) I am a learned man every day watching my children do and say and formulate actions that I know for which they've never had examples. I think it is quite a lesson in human nature and the human condition.

I do however believe we as anamilistic humans have a very violent side independent of culture or nurture.

Actually Scott you are correct. Aggressive behavior, mostly among boys, is common, actually the norm. I am speaking more of the level of violence that worries parents enough to sense a problem and bring them in for evaluation...

:)
 

DaktariEd

2005, 2006 Tech Course Champion: Expedition Trophy
Lost Canadian said:
Simply put I guess I see it as a community of people who in large part are fascinated by guns and the damage they can inflict.

Not fascinated...just attuned to their usefulness, their place in history, and their value in preserving our heritage and our God-given rights.
It saddens me to see other societies bow to politicians' expedient self-serving laws (of all types) that limit or rescind the peoples' rights.

Tools they may be, but in American society I think you will be hard pressed to find a tool which garners more admiration or worship.

Easy...the automobile! :smiley_drive:

:D
 

navara-au

Observer
I feel like writing some long winded explanation why I think Americans attitude to guns is wrong, but I wont bore you, plus I suck at writing anyways:( .
The one thing I will say is this little debate is very intelligent and civilized.

:gunt:
 

DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
kcowyo said:
Macintosh?


:xxrotflma :jump: :xxrotflma

KC you made me snort tea through my nose!!

Hey, don't make fun of my Macintosh, man. :pROFSheriffHL:

Seriously, though - I think, it seems, Canadians and Australians particularly, see us through the magnification of media portraying Americans as a homogeneous gun-crazy culture. We don't worship them! Heavens, that's such a strange overstatement. You're seeing this through a terribly incorrect filter - you ought to come down here and just hang out with us a while and you'll see we're perfectly normal, we enjoy shooting them, discussing them just as we might our vehicles - but we don't worship them.

Now, my Macintosh (all three of them), iPod . . . you'll never take them away - never - you'll have to pry them out of my - cold - dead - fingers !! - [insert emoticon of me holding my Powerbook above my head shaking it and doing some manly thing]
 

DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
navara-au said:
why I think Americans attitude to guns is wrong,

See my note above - I just don't agree you can make such a grossly blanket statement about any one culture or nation's citizens. Also, using such a word as "wrong" to describe something we all are clearly informed and passionate about is just inviting trouble (and then you duck and run)!

navara-au said:
The one thing I will say is this little debate is very intelligent and civilized.

But we're all a bunch of gun-crazed, gun worshiping nutbags!:jump:

Okay, sorry - not enough caffeine yet to be civilized.
 

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
navara-au said:
I feel like writing some long winded explanation why I think Americans attitude to guns is wrong, but I wont bore you, plus I suck at writing anyways:(

Attitudes vary greatly. I'm sure a good portion of our population would agree with you.
 

OutbacKamper

Supporting Sponsor
DesertRose said:
...it seems, Canadians and Australians particularly, see us through the magnification of media portraying Americans as a homogeneous gun-crazy culture.

My response to the above is:

DesertRose said:
...I just don't agree you can make such a grossly blanket statement about any one culture or nation's citizens.

Sorry Rose I know I took your 2nd quote out of context, but I couldn't resist.

The "gun culture" that has been discussed here is NOT an exclusive American thing. I grew up in England and Canada. As a kid I watched TV and movies, admiitedly most of them American: cowboys and indians (people shooting people), war movies (more people shooting people), and science fiction movies (people shooting aliens). Most of the games played with friends included guns. All my friends and I had large arsenals of toy guns. The only real difference was the reduced access to real guns in the UK. Once my family moved to Canada I finally had access to what I had been lusting after as a boy...real guns. At 11 I was given my first, a .22 bolt action rifle. I have owned guns ever since. Some Americans, and Canadians appear to be under the impression that Canadian gun laws are so strict that we can't own anything but hunting rifles, this is not true. The laws are stricter, but there are law abiding Canadians who own handguns, have handgun carry permits and even some who own fully automatic weapons (although this is rare). There are even gun clubs that rent handguns in Canada. While I sometimes wish that the laws were less restrictive and would allow me more freedom, I am also glad that most of the idiots and petty criminals in our society are not carrying. Nothing is perfect and there are always compromises that have to be made. Every freedom has its cost.

Cheers
Mark
 

Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
DesertRose said:
Seriously, though - I think, it seems, Canadians and Australians particularly, see us through the magnification of media portraying Americans as a homogeneous gun-crazy culture. We don't worship them! Heavens, that's such a strange overstatement. You're seeing this through a terribly incorrect filter - you ought to come down here and just hang out with us a while and you'll see we're perfectly normal, we enjoy shooting them, discussing them just as we might our vehicles - but we don't worship them.
Worship may have been a little over the top. I got that one from one of your fellow citizens while reading commentary on the VT shootings. You can't dispute the level of admiration many have for guns however. Also, just so I'm clear, I'm not suggesting that a majority of Americans spend their time day dreaming about guns. I'm not that naive.

I actually live in a border town, and it's always interesting to see the differences between our two nations. While for the most part I think you would be hard pressed to find many differences, there are a couple and one is our different attitudes towards guns.

Anyway, you had mentioned the "magnification of media portraying Americans as a homogeneous gun-crazy culture." It's interesting you brought that up because as Outbackamper said it is American media for the most part which portrays America as such. Even as I type this I can't help but notice in the corner of my eye this little guy doing his thing.:ar15:

DaktariEd said:
When I have been approached by parents about their children acting violently or aggressively, I have to dig into the history. In almost every case, we find the child witnessing violence: usually on television and video games. One I remember in particular was a boy kicking his siblings repeatedly. His favorite show: Power Rangers.

Obviously this is where the nature vs nurture debate comes into play.
 
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DaktariEd

2005, 2006 Tech Course Champion: Expedition Trophy
You know, I was giving this thread some deeper thought as I worked in my shop today...then sat down to a quick lunch...

I think Roseann had a very important point that got lost or left behind a while back.

I think every society has a strong tendency toward agression.

What piqued my interest especially today was the few minutes of TV I saw while eating lunch. The offerings: Hockey (incredibly aggressive), basketball (definitely aggressive), a few clips of football (major aggression).

It changes with the season and country, but many, many of the spectator sports that people get so passionate about are highly aggressive activities.

So rather than a "gun culture" being the root of violent behavior, what role do aggressive sports play in violence? How does it affect kids to have mom & dad on the sidelines calling out "Kill him, kill him!" (or other words to that effect)?

Given the amount of time devoted to these kind of activities vs. violent movies and such, I am thinking perhaps these are a very large contributor but one that is society-sanctioned and therefore not considered...

:)
 

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