For those that carry Guns and Overlanding

[BritKLR]

One of the topics that is rarely discussed in these types of gun carry conversations is the, "now what?" After you've used your legally carried weapon to stop another human being from doing what they were doing with the possible outcome of serious injury or death. I ask this from the legal/investigative point, not the philosophical/cavalier, "I'd rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6" point.
As I've said for over thirty years, I'd never talk anyone into or out of legally carrying a weapon, but to fully understand the civil, legal, mental, financial and criminal aspects of use of force involving a firearm, if they choose to carry. I'd be interested to learn what others know about this aspect of carrying. Thanks!

 

[Buliwyf]

There's training that'll cover when/how it's legal to defend yourself.
www.tdiohio.com/courses/

Afterwards, is a topic best approached by your actual lawyer.

 

[jadmt]

Glock 23. I find that .40cycles better dirty than 9mm.

Don't sweat the carbine mags. You won't be reloading. The one pmag in the rifle is plenty. Stick with AR's. I just built a Larue ultimate upper kit in .300blk, 14" for under $1000.

I have put well over 20,000+ rounds of 9mm and .40s down range and never had an issue with 9mm cycling. I once went well over 2000 rounds without cleaning my gat and just kept on putting rounds thru until I felt guilty of gun abuse.

 

[BritKLR]

Like so much of this conversation, it's best handled by an attorney and/or a trained professional.?.

 

[DieselRanger]

One of the topics that is rarely discussed in these types of gun carry conversations is the, "now what?" After you've used your legally carried weapon to stop another human being from doing what they were doing with the possible outcome of serious injury or death. I ask this from the legal/investigative point, not the philosophical/cavalier, "I'd rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6" point.
As I've said for over thirty years, I'd never talk anyone into or out of legally carrying a weapon, but to fully understand the civil, legal, mental, financial and criminal aspects of use of force involving a firearm, if they choose to carry. I'd be interested to learn what others know about this aspect of carrying. Thanks!

If you carry (open or concealed) to defend yourself against other people, then you should become a member of the USCCA. They provide not only training but specialized legal support and insurance in the unlikely and tragic event defense with a firearm against a human is necessary. Defending yourself against an animal is a different story, but in all cases you absolutely must know the laws of the land in which you're carrying.

The bottom line is, in most cases, you will be taken into custody, your firearm will be confiscated, and you will be asked as many questions as the responding LEOs can throw at you before they Mirandize you. What you do immediately after the event will determine the outcome. USCCA offers specific advice on what to say and do in these situations. And while you may escape criminal prosecution, no matter what you do, you may not escape civil lawsuits by the attacker's family.

Personally, no matter what, I've resolved that should I ever need to defend myself against a single human attacker and I win the draw, I will do everything I can to render lifesaving assistance to that attacker as long as they are no longer a threat to me, my family, or bystanders. In all cases, I'm not leaving the area until LEOs arrive and tell me what to do, to which I will respond immediately in exactly the manner they direct.

 

[BritKLR]

If you carry (open or concealed) to defend yourself against other people, then you should become a member of the USCCA. They provide not only training but specialized legal support and insurance in the unlikely and tragic event defense with a firearm against a human is necessary. Defending yourself against an animal is a different story, but in all cases you absolutely must know the laws of the land in which you're carrying.

The bottom line is, in most cases, you will be taken into custody, your firearm will be confiscated, and you will be asked as many questions as the responding LEOs can throw at you before they Mirandize you. What you do immediately after the event will determine the outcome. USCCA offers specific advice on what to say and do in these situations. And while you may escape criminal prosecution, no matter what you do, you may not escape civil lawsuits by the attacker's family.

Personally, no matter what, I've resolved that should I ever need to defend myself against a single human attacker and I win the draw, I will do everything I can to render lifesaving assistance to that attacker as long as they are no longer a threat to me, my family, or bystanders. In all cases, I'm not leaving the area until LEOs arrive and tell me what to do, to which I will respond immediately in exactly the manner they direct.

Well said and on point.

 

[rayra]

Slightly dubious source! http://ariwatch.com/WhosWho.htm#RobertTracinski ;-)

To the rest, I have, in fact, read the entire Constitution. (And the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.) And, for what it may be worth a Batchelor's degree in history, including US. Let us just say that scholars differ.

Have a great day! ;-)

No, let us instead say that you haven't read the Federalist Papers nor much of any of the Founders contemporaneous writings about a little revolution once in a while being a good thing. Or that the 'militia' is the whole people.

As for scholars differing, [rude noise] on them all. Bunch of fart sniffers. Some 200+ "constitutional scholars" from major universities signed an amicus brief during the Heller case asserting that the 2nd was NOT an individual right. Which totally flies in the face of the aforementioned writings and the historical context of the bargain that was the Bill of Rights and that 1-9 are ALL about individual rights and the protection of same and the 10th an attempt to further limit the powers of the central government as the central argument / wrangle at the time between the Federalists and the rest was the seeming concentration of too much power in a central government after having just spent 20yrs+ trying to get free of such. Only AFTER the Bill of Rights was crafted, explicitly enumerating individual freedoms and protections against a central government was sufficient agreement reached for ratification.

Furthermore, our politicians and military swear an oath to uphold support and defend our Constitution against all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC. And 'domestic enemies' doesn't mean enemies of the Federal government. It means enemies of the People.

---

“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.” Thomas Jefferson

 

[rayra]

One of the topics that is rarely discussed in these types of gun carry conversations is the, "now what?" After you've used your legally carried weapon to stop another human being from doing what they were doing with the possible outcome of serious injury or death. I ask this from the legal/investigative point, not the philosophical/cavalier, "I'd rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6" point.
As I've said for over thirty years, I'd never talk anyone into or out of legally carrying a weapon, but to fully understand the civil, legal, mental, financial and criminal aspects of use of force involving a firearm, if they choose to carry. I'd be interested to learn what others know about this aspect of carrying. Thanks!

The idea is to know much of the relevant laws on self defense in your jurisdiction and the proclivities of the local prosecutor. You have to know the applicable laws and potential penalties before you decide for yourself what you are going to do. And you best figure it out well in advance of need.

The laws vary wildly in the United States. Although the trend has long been toward stronger rules in favor of self-defense. Your rights to do so can be plotted on a map much like the by-county election results maps.
An irony here is CA actually has some pretty strong self-defense guidelines in our Penal Code. A sort of castle doctrine in all but name. But no civil protections against a dead perp's family suing you after you kill their aspiring cancer researcher while he's assaulting you. Lethal force here is accepted to protect yourself or another from a forcible felony to include assault, rape or arson. And there's no duty to retreat and you can essentially 'repel boarders' IN your home. But woe be unto you if you shoot them on your front walk, porch or at them as they retreat. We can have all the guns we want in our home, but if I wear a firearm in my front yard or driveway - within the public curtilage - I'm committing a chargeable offense of either concealed or open carry. The latter having been criminalized in CA recently.

So everyone should make a thorough study of the applicable laws in your jurisdiction and decide for yourselves where your inherent right to self defense and 2nd amendment right lay compared to how the authorities in your region interpret and enforce their opinions and laws. Me, I put some weight in the old saw 'better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6'. And it wasn't long after I watched Reginald Denny be dragged from his vehicle and have his head stove in with a brick that I discovered that CA law says the first time you are caught illegally carrying a concealed weapon it is only chargeable as a Misdemeanor.

 

[PPCLI_Jim]

Up here in Canadaland since protecting your life is nearly as illegal as killing someone needlessly. my truck gun that i carry is a 12g with bearbangers. Why bearbangers, you ask? Because its designed as a less than lethal round. At that point I'll make a choice of 1 my life , 2 letting everyone know something happened here/ you should back away,OR 3 feeding then 25$ worth of you should not of bothered me. I very much fall into the 12 vs 6 argument. After 25+ yrs military service I know what my life is worth.

 

[perterra]

Up here in Canadaland since protecting your life is nearly as illegal as killing someone needlessly. my truck gun that i carry is a 12g with bearbangers. Why bearbangers, you ask? Because its designed as a less than lethal round. At that point I'll make a choice of 1 my life , 2 letting everyone know something happened here/ you should back away,OR 3 feeding then 25$ worth of you should not of bothered me. I very much fall into the 12 vs 6 argument. After 25+ yrs military service I know what my life is worth.

That last sentence says it all. I aint sure what my life is worth, but I know my wife, daughters and grandkids lives are worth any price I may have to pay

 

[PPCLI_Jim]

EXACTLY what I'm saying. After all I've been through I'll take my chances to explain to the Crown (being Canadaland) why theres a dead carcass of whatever sort by my vehicle / in my home. After all my time deployed I can easily go through a threat escalation matrix, just like a LEO.

 

[hemifoot]

it's legal to have a firearm while wilderness camping in canada for predator control,as long as you have a pal.so i always camp with my mossberg 500. predator is a grey area.so is wilderness.

 

[jacobconroy]

I didn't read much of the thread. Too long. So forgive me if this has already been discussed. Just some of my thoughts to share. Doesn't make me right about anything.

Always wanted to get my concealed carry license but haven't got around to it. Each time I hear about some public shooting, usually in a gun-negative state, I think about finally getting it done.

In my state, open carry is legal pretty much everywhere except Federal facilities and local law enforcement facilities. Do I open carry? Nope. Why? Having a three to five pound chunk of steel on your hip is a pain in the ass. Doesn't work well with seat belts. I don't want to explain the gun everywhere I go. I don't want to make people uncomfortable. And...I honestly don't want to be "that guy".

Last week I bought a new iPhone at the local Verizon store. While waiting for the clerk to do some computer work I glanced across the way and saw a tall, skinny, hairy fellow waiting for a different clerk and he had a J-frame S&W on his hip. I thought it was very strange that a cowboy-looking fellow with a .357 mag on his person would also need a smart phone.

Now, I'm very pro-gun rights and even I thought, "Why in the hell do you need that in here?" He should have taken the gun out of the holster and left it in the car. I have done this when entering gas stations while returning from outdoorsy trips. Seemed like the polite thing to do. You look foolish enough with just the holster.

Around here, open carry in town seems to scream "I was picked on as a child and I don't like people! Don't mess with me! Damn The Man!"

Concealed carry seems to say, "I like to have a gun on hand, am socially responsible, was willing to take some training courses for the license, and obviously have passed a background check."

Will I ever get around to having a concealed carry license? Probably not. The only time I open carry is when I'm camping at a remote site alone after dark, or, I am alone at a remote camp site and begin to hear people around that I can't yet see. Meaning that they are not approaching me from the road.

On these occasions I make sure that it is very obvious that I have a loaded weapon holstered on my person. That is the point.

About 20 years ago, a local man with a known history of mental problems beat a female Forest Ranger to death. Guess what? The Forest Service immediately armed their Rangers. It was big news at the time. That kind of thing can and does happen. Not often though.

I often wonder if it would be easier to get robbed and/or take a beating vs discharging a weapon to protect yourself in the USA considering all the possible legal ramifications. Both options sound like something to be avoided. But what if you are in the position where you had to choose one or the other with no notice? Would you wish that you had a firearm and knew how to use it?

 

[waveslider]

Not sure I understand your logic. You make a point to let someone know you are armed and dangerous at a remote campsite with very few people around but will take your gun out of its holster and leave it in the car when you go into a gas station in town?

I'm no statistician, but I think you have something backwards.

Food for thought - here is the results of a simple google search of "man shot in verizon store". One of the top three results was less than a month ago with the headline of: "Masked thief holds employee at gunpoint in Verizon store robbery. "

https://www.google.com/search?q=man...rome..69i57.4935j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I didn't bother to search "man shot at convenience store" or "man shot at gas station" for obvious reasons.

In truth, I don't care whether you carry or not, it matters little to me and you should be free to make whatever choice you want. I am simply curious about how you arrive at your conclusions and what informs your decisions.

 

[jacobconroy]

Not sure I understand your logic. You make a point to let someone know you are armed and dangerous at a remote campsite with very few people around but will take your gun out of its holster and leave it in the car when you go into a gas station in town?

I'm no statistician, but I think you have something backwards.


Food for thought - here is the results of a simple google search of "man shot in verizon store". One of the top three results was less than a month ago with the headline of: "Masked thief holds employee at gunpoint in Verizon store robbery. "

https://www.google.com/search?q=man...rome..69i57.4935j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I didn't bother to search "man shot at convenience store" or "man shot at gas station" for obvious reasons.

In truth, I don't care whether you carry or not, it matters little to me and you should be free to make whatever choice you want. I am simply curious about how you arrive at your conclusions and what informs your decisions.

So, you don’t see any difference between sporting a pistol at a remote camp site vs a place of business within city limits? Interesting.

Also, never said that “armed and dangerous” was my intention. You said that.

I guess you are asking if I think I would be more likely to be forced to defend myself and/or my wife in a remote camp site or in the Verizon store. If that is the question, then the answer is that I feel safe in town.

We had a wolf within 20 feet of our camp fire this August. At dusk. Five miles from the highway. I think he was curious about our dog. If you found yourself in that situation, do you think a warning shot might get rid of the wolf? Would you rather have a gun at hand or go digging around in your rig while trying to hang on to your dog and calm your wife?

Personal experience is the basis on which I make my decisions.