Ford E-Series Rear Shackle Flip

[txtom]

Hey Snorkeld_Zuk. I am just about to do this conversion on my E350. Hook me up with a discount and I will shoot you all the pictures/video you want. I was wondering if your 6" front frame drop brackets use the same bolt pattern as the stock brackets. I haven't seen anyone talk about your 6" kit yet. I am installing a 2010 F350 Sterling rear axle too. Let me know if you need any info on that for your R&D. I am planning to use the MG Metalworks(ExpoVans) kit on the front end. Thanks, Tom

Awesome. So I'm the new guy here at Sky's and really want to build a 4x4 E350, and have had a couple customers tell me they were using this kit on their van. I decided to do a little research to see just how it is working out. We don't have it listed as an application but I will add it to the website. We are considering offering an 05+ Super Duty Axle Swap Kit in the future. It's still in the research phase of R&D though.
Jsweezy can I use some of your pictures?

 

[mk216v]

Awesome. So I'm the new guy here at Sky's and really want to build a 4x4 E350, and have had a couple customers tell me they were using this kit on their van. I decided to do a little research to see just how it is working out. We don't have it listed as an application but I will add it to the website. We are considering offering an 05+ Super Duty Axle Swap Kit in the future. It's still in the research phase of R&D though.
Jsweezy can I use some of your pictures?

ExpoVans/MG coil spring 4x4 conversion kit; https://expovans.com/conversions/e-series/

 

[Snorkeld_Zuk]

@mk216v I've looked at that site, and they seem to have nice products. There isn't a lot of information on their site as to what is included and how much it costs. From what I have seen other people post about their builds, they are spending a whole lot more that what our customers typically spend on coil spring Super Duty swaps in OBS Ford trucks using our kit.
@txtom I'll PM you. I am curious about that as well and am researching. We have just been busy with our OBS Ford line and haven't gotten time for the vans yet. We also make an 08-16 Super Duty rear spring swap/ shackle flip kit that uses the factory holes as well. We have an E350 Box van for a test mule, and I plan on buying an E350 high top as well.

 

[mk216v]

@mk216v I've looked at that site, and they seem to have nice products. There isn't a lot of information on their site as to what is included and how much it costs. From what I have seen other people post about their builds, they are spending a whole lot more that what our customers typically spend on coil spring Super Duty swaps in OBS Ford trucks using our kit.
@txtom I'll PM you. I am curious about that as well and am researching. We have just been busy with our OBS Ford line and haven't gotten time for the vans yet. We also make an 08-16 Super Duty rear spring swap/ shackle flip kit that uses the factory holes as well. We have an E350 Box van for a test mule, and I plan on buying an E350 high top as well.

Awesome. So I'm the new guy here at Sky's and really want to build a 4x4 E350, and have had a couple customers tell me they were using this kit on their van. I decided to do a little research to see just how it is working out. We don't have it listed as an application but I will add it to the website. We are considering offering an 05+ Super Duty Axle Swap Kit in the future. It's still in the research phase of R&D though.

I'm confused by your posts.
#1 When you say "From what I have seen other people post about their builds, they are spending a whole lot more than what our customers typically spend on coil spring Super Duty swaps in OBS Ford trucks using our kit," by "their builds" are you talking E-Series or F-Series?
#2 And if E-Series, are you talking about those builds with the MG/ExpoVans coil spring conversion kit? If so, why compare an 4th gen E to an OBS F?
#3 And by "our kit" you're talking about your shackle flip kit?

#3 The '05+ Super Duty Axle Swap Kit you're thinking of offering; will this be for 4th gen E-Series vans, or do you mean for OBS Ford trucks?

Details of the MG/ExpoVans coil spring 4x4 conversion kit can be found on the Sportsmobile forum. Lots of E-Series owners there running this kit with great success.

 

[Snorkeld_Zuk]

I'm confused by your posts.
#1 When you say "From what I have seen other people post about their builds, they are spending a whole lot more than what our customers typically spend on coil spring Super Duty swaps in OBS Ford trucks using our kit," by "their builds" are you talking E-Series or F-Series?
#2 And if E-Series, are you talking about those builds with the MG/ExpoVans coil spring conversion kit? If so, why compare an 4th gen E to an OBS F?
#3 And by "our kit" you're talking about your shackle flip kit?

#3 The '05+ Super Duty Axle Swap Kit you're thinking of offering; will this be for 4th gen E-Series vans, or do you mean for OBS Ford trucks?

Details of the MG/ExpoVans coil spring 4x4 conversion kit can be found on the Sportsmobile forum. Lots of E-Series owners there running this kit with great success.

Sorry for any confusion. I still have a lot of homework to do. Thanks for pointing me in that direction I just started poking around the Sportsmobile forum. I have been on here for years but haven't spent any time over there. There is a lot more info on the swap there.
I am sort of comparing apples to oranges a bit, as we make a coil swap kit for the 92-97 F250 / F350 : 92-97 Complete 05+ Coil Spring Swap Kit
The MG kit looks like a great kit, so I'm not entirely sure it's worth us making a kit for the vans. I believe U-Joint was making a coil kit for awhile too, but I'm not finding much info on it either.

 

[mk216v]

Sorry for any confusion. I still have a lot of homework to do. Thanks for pointing me in that direction I just started poking around the Sportsmobile forum. I have been on here for years but haven't spent any time over there. There is a lot more info on the swap there.
I am sort of comparing apples to oranges a bit, as we make a coil swap kit for the 92-97 F250 / F350 : 92-97 Complete 05+ Coil Spring Swap Kit
The MG kit looks like a great kit, so I'm not entirely sure it's worth us making a kit for the vans. I believe U-Joint was making a coil kit for awhile too, but I'm not finding much info on it either.

You're welcome. SMBforum has a LOT of MG/ExpoVans customers on there, lots of helpful info;

MG Metal Works DIY kit knowledge share - Sportsmobile Forum

Hi guys, MG has restarted manufacturing the 4x4 DIY kit with the recent group buy. I sent my payment yesterday. This thread is to share our install progress, ask questions, share tips and tricks.

www.sportsmobileforum.com

MG/EV kit is the leading E-Series 4x4 conversion kit for sure. Ride on the latest Ford coil spring design vs antiquated leaf springs, and you also get huge factory 14.29" brakes too with an '13+ F-SuperDuty front axle! Maybe they can work with you to package it and more of your bits so you can offer it to your customers too?
U-Joint was using the MG/EV coil kit until they wanted to take it in their own custom direction without consulting MG/EV. So they're back to focusing on leaf sprung E-Series.

Happy 4x4'ing!

 

[ujoint]

U-Joint was using the MG/EV coil kit until they wanted to take it in their own custom direction without consulting MG/EV. So they're back to focusing on leaf sprung E-Series.

Oh here we go...... Again. We used that kit until we had too many complaints about steering feel and a few cases of DW. So I came up with a solution to help our customers instead of throwing bandaids at it like steering stabilizers/etc. We fixed it via crossover steering with a relocated trac bar, didn't change ANYTHING to the MG brackets besides opening up the upper trac bar mount hole for the larger trac bar end.

Happy to have coils behind us and we continue to remove coil conversions to replace with our tried & true leaf setup.

 

[Snorkeld_Zuk]

Oh here we go...... Again. We used that kit until we had too many complaints about steering feel and a few cases of DW. So I came up with a solution to help our customers instead of throwing bandaids at it like steering stabilizers/etc. We fixed it via crossover steering with a relocated trac bar, didn't change ANYTHING to the MG brackets besides opening up the upper trac bar mount hole for the larger trac bar end.

Happy to have coils behind us and we continue to remove coil conversions to replace with our tried & true leaf setup.

This is interesting. Our coil swap setups we make for F-250/350 trucks work great. Our biggest challenge in that kit was designing a panhard mount that fit tight enough to the frame to accommodate low lift (1-2), and were strong enough to withstand the forces put upon it. I find it interesting that you are actually removing coil swap setups. We do offer crossover steering with Reid knuckles for those axles. We use the 05+ panhard in on the trucks. What does this kit use? You mentioned having to change it?
Thanks for letting me pick your brain.

 

[ujoint]

This is interesting. Our coil swap setups we make for F-250/350 trucks work great. Our biggest challenge in that kit was designing a panhard mount that fit tight enough to the frame to accommodate low lift (1-2), and were strong enough to withstand the forces put upon it. I find it interesting that you are actually removing coil swap setups. We do offer crossover steering with Reid knuckles for those axles. We use the 05+ panhard in on the trucks. What does this kit use? You mentioned having to change it?
Thanks for letting me pick your brain.

Don't want to hijack this thread, there are many differences between the truck & van chassis that add difficulty with packaging & geometry. A good strong upper trac bar mount, axle location, steering angles, etc. We converted the vans with steering issues to crossover steering for a nice flat drag link/trac bar angle. We've removed a bunch of coil sprung 4x4 conversions over the years and replaced with our leaf kit for a better overall rig.

 

[Mverick]

Intresting.

When all the OEM manufacturers went with a coil spring setup for a better ride quality.

Just got a set of the MG Metalworks mounts in. See if I have any issues. I know they look built like tanks. Lots of bracing.

All off road buggies go to coils for articulation. As leaf springs don't come close on flex. I've built both. Jeeps with leafs front and back. Jeeps with coils. Bronco with leafs. Bronco with coils. Jeep had coilovers. Best of the bunch. Not sure I want them on my van though. And I really wanted a better ride for the 4000 mile trips. And some articulation.

 

[Len.Barron]

Intresting.

When all the OEM manufacturers went with a coil spring setup for a better ride quality.

Just got a set of the MG Metalworks mounts in. See if I have any issues. I know they look built like tanks. Lots of bracing.

All off road buggies go to coils for articulation. As leaf springs don't come close on flex. I've built both. Jeeps with leafs front and back. Jeeps with coils. Bronco with leafs. Bronco with coils. Jeep had coilovers. Best of the bunch. Not sure I want them on my van though. And I really wanted a better ride for the 4000 mile trips. And some articulation.

It's not the issue of it being coil sprung, it's the use of a radius arm link set up and then lifting it, you are then multiplying the forces on the track bar. A triangulated 3 link system would be more stable. I struggled a bit with DW on mine right after I finnished it, thankfully the addition of a good quality stabilizer (and hydro assist steering) fixed it completely.

 

[Mwilliamshs]

...When all the OEM manufacturers went with a coil spring setup for a better ride quality...

How do you know WHY all the OEM manufacturers did that?
Did they ALL go with coils? For all applications? If some applications didn't change to coils, why?

 

[ujoint]

How do you know WHY all the OEM manufacturers did that?
Did they ALL go with coils? For all applications? If some applications didn't change to coils, why?

I've head that one of the reasons for coils was to get the frame lower for crash standards.

If we're talking about straight up flex, our leaf kit has more wheel travel than the MG coil kit, I've tested both. The coil setup binds up too much, this is what causes DW and bump steer. There are differences in how the coil vs leaf "uses" that travel and the particular conditions, sure. There's no such thing as a perfect balance. I don't think many 4x4 vans get used the way we see Jeeps/Broncos/Yotas being used.

 

[mgmetalworks]

I've head that one of the reasons for coils was to get the frame lower for crash standards.

If we're taming about straight up flex, our leaf kit has more wheel travel than the MG coil kit, I've tested both. The coil setup binds up too much, this is what causes DW and bump steer. There are differences in how the coil vs leaf "uses" that travel and the particular conditions, sure. There's no such thing as a perfect balance. I don't think many 4x4 vans get used the way we see Jeeps/Broncos/Yotas being used.

I'll give you that a radius arm suspension doesn't flex like leafs. It's not designed for a substantial amount of flex so it's no real surprise. Not everyone wants or needs a lot of flex in their 4x4 van so I don't see it as a big disadvantage. I'll take the tighter turning radius and better brakes you get with our kit vs others.

I completely disagree with your statement about the cause of DW. No where in any technical literature is "bind" mentioned as the cause of DW or bump steer. That statement shows how little you know of suspension geometry and the fundamental design of a coil spring/radius arm suspension or link suspension, not to mention how to resolve an issue if one arises. I have the engineering background and experience to back up my work; our bracket kits were designed using OEM CAD data and I know our geometry to the thousandths of an inch (and fraction of a degree).

This thread isn't the place for a debate but I'd be happy to educate folks on the real causes of DW and bump steer and how to fix it.

 

[ujoint]

I'll give you that a radius arm suspension doesn't flex like leafs. It's not designed for a substantial amount of flex so it's no real surprise. Not everyone wants or needs a lot of flex in their 4x4 van so I don't see it as a big disadvantage. I'll take the tighter turning radius and better brakes you get with our kit vs others.

I completely disagree with your statement about the cause of DW. No where in any technical literature is "bind" mentioned as the cause of DW or bump steer. That statement shows how little you know of suspension geometry and the fundamental design of a coil spring/radius arm suspension or link suspension, not to mention how to resolve an issue if one arises. I have the engineering background and experience to back up my work; our bracket kits were designed using OEM CAD data and I know our geometry to the thousandths of an inch (and fraction of a degree).

This thread isn't the place for a debate but I'd be happy to educate folks on the real causes of DW and bump steer and how to fix it.

You guys in Portland sure do love that word "engineer". Anyone that has worked on cars for a long time has cursed quite a few of them and some of the worst advice I've personally ever taken was from an "engineer" that loved to tell everyone about his degree. He was quite annoying.

I have resolved DW issues on multiple suspensions including yours so i do understand it. None of them have had problems since, whether we added x-over steering and a new trac bar to the existing radius arm setup or ditched it completely for leaf springs.

We still have the largest brake option for the E series swaps. The sharper turning radius is nice on the coil swap but not worth the other negatives that come along with it. I've never needed more turning radius in a van that I've owned, they get the job done fine.