Gear like MaxTrax maybe cheaper in the long run than this alternative

[Vinman]

Explain to me what the difference is. Many years ago somebody marked up some rocks, how is that different from somebody marking up some rocks today?
No, I’m not going to damage or deface petroglyphs in any way.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I sincerely hope that they catch the person who did this, and fine them for the full amount that it takes to restore their damage - if that can be done.

I also hope that the media does not label them an "Overlanders". We should not, either. That association would have rippling bad repercussions for a very long while. Look at how Drag Racing is forever dragged down by illegal street racers. The media persists in calling what street racers do "drag racing." Overlanding doesn't need that kind of bad press.

There is a difference between a fine, and the cost of restoration. They are two separate things. A fine is a set amount or range of $ to be paid to the government as a penalty. Restitution is what the person would have to pay in order to repay a victim for harm or damage or, or example, restoring this to the upright position.

Was this person an overlander, or just offloading? We dont know if they were overlanding per se, but we do know they were off-road.

What would you call two idiot kids in production vehicles that may or may not be hopped up. Lighting up the streets at night, dangerously racing on public roads? Stupid, yes, but it is and always has been referred to as drag racing, especially if it is one against one.


I'm a little bit of a history buff, and being from New England helps. I hate to see something like this happen. At the same time, I am conflicted because I want to see it put back, but also wonder if removing it isnt better for the area like someone mentioned above.

I wouldnt want all parks to be walk-in...im sure some of the roads through Yellowstone existed before it was a national park. I am sure the carriage roads of Acadia existed before it became a park.

Regardless, the article says it is on the national historic register, so it needs to be put back. Will they need to mix new concrete footings using the same methods and materials as 113 years ago as a result?

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Interestingly, they can only say it happened between 1 April and 24 April. If you were stuck, and for some reason had no comms, no food or not enough water, that's how long it would take if you just sat there and awaited the next patrol for rescue. I'm sure that's probably pretty common out west, but maybe, maybe someone was desperate

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Historic Litter is more like it.

Am I the only one that wishes all signs of human existence were removed from national parks?

I’d be on board with National Parks being 100% walk in access only.

To hell with that tram. To hell with buses full of tourists. To hell with vehicles in there. Then it would truly be a special place.

Naw, man. Many parks had roads in them before they were designated parks. Sometimes a park is created because the place is special, but vehicles can be managed and the surrounding areas see an increase in tourism.
Should Shenandoah or Smokey Mountain Range now be roadless? There is a HIGHWAY through Shenandoah that existed before the park.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

There is a time and place for off highway vehicle travel and it’s not within National Park boundaries, which take up a lot less acreage than you seem to think. These are mostly protected from our big dumb vehicles for a reason.

National Forest, BLM, etc… that’s where the rules are loose and you can go tear things up more freely.

If it weren’t for the Sierra Club, National Parks likely wouldn’t exist, and neither would public lands. The whole country would be like Texas. They basically have no public land because ‘freedom’.

Um...
.Yellowstone National Park ,founded 1872
.Yosemite state park 1863, went big and national in 1890.
.Sierra Club, born 1892.
.Acadia National park, started by a landscape architect and his "president of Harvard University" father, and thier friend (who had vacationed there and bought land there in 1868) who saw what artists and captains of industry (Rockefeller) were flocking to tour their summers and decided to make a park of it.

So, you are talking a little out of your back pocket, sir. Even though Muir was instrumental in both the national parks and Sierra club, the national parks started coming along well before Sierra club

 

[ThundahBeagle]

^here's a write up on another site, this one in AB. Art with significance to a culture then and now.

Most rock art can be described as either biographical or ceremonial in nature. Biographical art appears to tell a specific story, such as of a battle or great deed that an individual performed. Some stories feature dozens of individual characters, including people, horses, tipis, dogs and so forth. The artists of these scenes were likely participants in the events depicted. Ceremonial rock art does not tell a particular story but rather features images of powerful figures and spiritual relationships. Most ceremonial art consists of single or a few characters. This style of rock art appears to represent an attempt to communicate with the spirit world.

Áísínai’pi is a sacred place for the Siksikaitsitapi (Blackfoot Nation). At Áísínai’pi the Siksikaitsitapi sought guidance from the spirits who live among the cliffs and hoodoos. Many of the rock images describe the power of the spirit world as well as the messages given to the Siksikaitsitapi by spirit beings. Young warriors on vision quests — days spent fasting and praying at a sacred place — may have recorded the dreams they had during these journeys.

Right? I mean, the Nazca lines are not simply graffiti.

 

[beef tits]

Um...
.Yellowstone National Park ,founded 1872
.Yosemite state park 1863, went big and national in 1890.
.Sierra Club, born 1892.
.Acadia National park, started by a landscape architect and his "president of Harvard University" father, and thier friend (who had vacationed there and bought land there in 1868) who saw what artists and captains of industry (Rockefeller) were flocking to tour their summers and decided to make a park of it.

So, you are talking a little out of your back pocket, sir. Even though Muir was instrumental in both the national parks and Sierra club, the national parks started coming along well before Sierra club

…And the Sierra Club has helped expand and protect nearly every park over the years. I didn't say they were responsible for starting the parks… they help keep the vultures away who would otherwise dismantle and exploit the parks for resources, etc.

 

[beef tits]

Naw, man. Many parks had roads in them before they were designated parks. Sometimes a park is created because the place is special, but vehicles can be managed and the surrounding areas see an increase in tourism.
Should Shenandoah or Smokey Mountain Range now be roadless? There is a HIGHWAY through Shenandoah that existed before the park.

I never said the parks came before the roads. I said the parks would be nicer if the roads didn’t exist. Your highway is litter on the landscape, regardless of which came first.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I never said the parks came before the roads. I said the parks would be nicer if the roads didn’t exist. Your highway is litter on the landscape, regardless of which came first.

Maybe highways are a litter on the landscape, but it is a fact of life. I like the idea of not making it worse than it is... "Highways", albeit in a different form, go back about a thousand years. Do you want nobody to ever go see the parks?

Or are you suggesting highways can go around the parks but you have to park and walk to get in? There are some big parks out there. A lot of people would never make it back out.

What should we do about all the people who live in homes that are withing state or national park boundaries?