GMT400 vs GMT800 Suburban

[CrazyDrei]

Kooky Talk. In the series that have been discussed 2500 has stronger frames, much stronger transmissions, much stronger axles, much better brakes, and better coolers for power steering, transmission, and engine. A much easier argument is to point out the silliness of using 1/2 ton gm transmissions and axles for a vehicle that will be modified for severe use.

CampSteeart,

My point exactly, OP said that will use it to drive himself and his family around dirt roads and go camping where a Honda civic maybe as technical as a Subaru trail will get you without a problem, nowhere in the post did I see the OP mention anything about keeping a 10,000lbs trailer permanently attached to the Suburban as a daily driver. There is absolutely no need for a 2500. Your statement regarding brakes also tells me that you are also sold on bigger is better since you are oblivious to the fact that 1500 Suburbans have bigger brakes than 2500 by 1" to be exact., and if you want to argue that running hydroboost on a GM power steering pump is better than vacuum off road you once again never owned and driven that combination off road.

Why stop at a 2500 when I can just as easily argue that a deuce and a half also has a "stronger frames, much stronger transmissions, much stronger axles, much better brakes, and better coolers for power steering, transmission, and engine."

There is absolutely nothing that a 1500 is not capable of doing that a 2500 is other than costing more to buy, burning more gas and costing more to maintain.

Your argument only tells me that you spend all your time reading and buying into spread sheet data without ever getting out there to actually putting that data to real world use.

Where is AlexCold to chime in on his short lived experience with his 2500 that burned more fuel sitting in the driveway than his 1500 actually driving.

 

[CrazyDrei]

Why, because the OP is an intelligent being and knows that none of what you just claimed is true....

Jeep-n-montero,

I agree, but it's been a year and I'm still waiting to see a picture of your 2500 hooked up to a 10,000lbs trailer you claim to tow everyday or a picture of your truck that's not in your driveway.

 

[plumber mike]

I can see the fuel consumption being a concern....for some, but I don't understand the thought process of a 2500 costing more used or costing more to maintain. Perhaps that's an area specific thing. I only use my Yuk for local in town stuff these days. Basically any trip where the diesel won't get warm enough. It has 278k on it and still rides and drives very nicely.
I can only speak from personal experience. I've broken a 10 bolt rear end before, but I've never had an issue with a FF14. I've never heard anyone complain that they had too much truck, but I've heard of those who didn't have enough.

 

[lilkia]

I was reading over your original question and intended use, and everything is pointing to a 1500 truck. Why are you now leaning g towards a 2500? They are more expensive to buy, more expensive to fix, break more often, much worse mpg.

2500 are more rare than 1500 but come at a huge cost of ownership.

Says the man that has never owned a 2500.
What exactly breaks more often? I have owned both 1500 and 2500 gmt800s. Granted the 1500s were P/Us and a tahoe, but it is the same drivetrain and running gear. I do know what breaks more often. The 1500 suspension and steering components and wheel bearings need to be replaced more often under strenuous use. The 4l60e fails regularly around 150k or less, especially if towing larger loads. The 10 bolt rear isnt nearly as strong and has a smaller g80 which is why it blows apart doing what it what was made for. The 5.3 has a myriad of little issues that the 6.0s and 8.1s dont

What is more expensive to fix? The suspension, and steering components may cost a little more, but were talking a few dollars. Not tens or even hundreds of dollars. Plus you dont need to do it nearly as often especially if you crank the front. A trans rebuild or used replacement, which you probably wont ever need on a 4l80 or 4l85 is roughly the same cost within 5% (which even if its $2k is only a $100). The 2500 already has better brakes so need to upgrades and the cost difference for parts is negligible. But again they dont need to be replaced as often so the difference is a wash.

MPGs are less. Unloaded. Put a family, gear, and add a camper trailer behind it like the OP wants to do with it, and your efficient little 5.3/4l60e just turned into a slow, overheating, gas guzzling turd getting worse MPGs than either of the bigger v8s. If all youre going to do is shuttle the kids or run two track in the mtns with a few kids and a little throw in camp gear the 1500 is a great truck. Going up grapevine (tejon pass @ 4500')with your family and basic camp gear without overheating is nothing to brag about. Especially when youve added everything the 2500 has stock. Try it with the family, 2klbs of gear and a 30' camper while maintaing the speed limit then get back to us.

It is good to see what you guys have done to make the 1500s more capable. Do you know what 2500 owners have to do? A little (wee bit of level) crank, throw on bigger tires and go.

 

[CampStewart]

CampSteeart,

My point exactly, OP said that will use it to drive himself and his family around dirt roads and go camping where a Honda civic maybe as technical as a Subaru trail will get you without a problem, nowhere in the post did I see the OP mention anything about keeping a 10,000lbs trailer permanently attached to the Suburban as a daily driver. There is absolutely no need for a 2500. Your statement regarding brakes also tells me that you are also sold on bigger is better since you are oblivious to the fact that 1500 Suburbans have bigger brakes than 2500 by 1" to be exact., and if you want to argue that running hydroboost on a GM power steering pump is better than vacuum off road you once again never owned and driven that combination off road.

Why stop at a 2500 when I can just as easily argue that a deuce and a half also has a "stronger frames, much stronger transmissions, much stronger axles, much better brakes, and better coolers for power steering, transmission, and engine."

There is absolutely nothing that a 1500 is not capable of doing that a 2500 is other than costing more to buy, burning more gas and costing more to maintain.

Your argument only tells me that you spend all your time reading and buying into spread sheet data without ever getting out there to actually putting that data to real world use.

Where is AlexCold to chime in on his short lived experience with his 2500 that burned more fuel sitting in the driveway than his 1500 actually driving.

The accusations that I am basing my statements off of spread sheets, the silliness of bringing a duce and a half into the conversation and implying that the 1/2 ton has better brakes coupled with the statments you made in your original post leads me to conclude that you came in here more interested in stirring up ******** than adding useful content.

 

[plumber mike]

I guess a driveway pic is all I've got of the old girl. The TT is supposed to be half ton towable. That would not be fun.

 

[CCH]

I have owned a '97 Chevy 1500 extended cab with the 5.7, a 2001 1500 ext. cab with the 5.3, and a 2009 1500 Suburban with the 5.3. I'm currently driving a 2013 2500HD (getting into a totally different vehicle here, but engine for comparison) with the 6.0. The 5.3 is fine for the vehicle alone, but it flat out sucks if you will tow any serious loads (5,000 lbs.+). We had to get rid of the Suburban because it would not pull our camper, and the weight was well within specs. I like to leave a lot of margin for error with towing weights. Living in Colorado, altitude and grade are significant factors. Didn't have the Suburban long enough to see how it held up, but the 2001 1/2 ton started to have issues with front end components and other things shortly after the 100K mark. I used it as a 4WD vehicle, so it saw a lot of rugged use. I'd imagine that if it spent it's life on pavement, it would have lasted a lot longer, but that would defeat the purpose for me.

After a lot of research, I decided that sticking with 3/4 ton level components in a truck (or Suburban) was the way to go if you're going to tow any weight or work it hard. The 6.0L has a pretty stellar reputation for longevity and reliability. Mileage is not great, but not far off the 5.3 loaded up. I'm too early into using my 2013 (bought it with 42k and only up to 62k) to draw any serious conclusions other than that I've had zero issues and it has performed well. It doesn't tow effortlessly like the diesel I had to replace the Suburban with, but it does the job and is much better offroad and around town.

To the OP, I have been towing various campers for many years, and I have yet to wish for less vehicle. If you think there is a chance you'll have to deal with heavier loads or more rugged use, a 2500 will give you a greater margin of safety and will hold up better. I can't see how it will be more expensive to maintain other than gas.

 

[CrazyDrei]

The accusations that I am basing my statements off of spread sheets, the silliness of bringing a duce and a half into the conversation and implying that the 1/2 ton has better brakes coupled with the statments you made in your original post leads me to conclude that you came in here more interested in stirring up **** than adding useful content.

My point here is that everyone is more concerned about a truck and chassis that performs well under a the conditions it will be driven only 0.01% of the time for a ridiculous premium which could be used to pay for gas and have an exceptionally capable vehicle for 99.9% you will be driving it.

PS, if you are towing a 30ft camper you are not overlanding or going off road EVER, so a 2500 truck will be a perfect highway cruiser. I run my 1500 on trails that no 2500 ever even think of doing and very few built Jeeps venture out on at a fraction of the cost.

To each their own, but financially and from a practical point you don't need a 2500 truck if you plan on keeping it in your driveway or as a commuter over 90% of it's life.

 

[lilkia]

CampSteeart,

My point exactly, OP said that will use it to drive himself and his family around dirt roads and go camping where a Honda civic maybe as technical as a Subaru trail will get you without a problem, nowhere in the post did I see the OP mention anything about keeping a 10,000lbs trailer permanently attached to the Suburban as a daily driver. There is absolutely no need for a 2500. Your statement regarding brakes also tells me that you are also sold on bigger is better since you are oblivious to the fact that 1500 Suburbans have bigger brakes than 2500 by 1" to be exact., and if you want to argue that running hydroboost on a GM power steering pump is better than vacuum off road you once again never owned and driven that combination off road.

Why stop at a 2500 when I can just as easily argue that a deuce and a half also has a "stronger frames, much stronger transmissions, much stronger axles, much better brakes, and better coolers for power steering, transmission, and engine."

There is absolutely nothing that a 1500 is not capable of doing that a 2500 is other than costing more to buy, burning more gas and costing more to maintain.

Your argument only tells me that you spend all your time reading and buying into spread sheet data without ever getting out there to actually putting that data to real world use.

Where is AlexCold to chime in on his short lived experience with his 2500 that burned more fuel sitting in the driveway than his 1500 actually driving.

Then why have you spent so much time trying to turn your 1500 into a 2500? All the coolers, brake and suspension upgrades? Speaking of brakes, how many pistons does each caliper have on a 1500? How many on the 2500? Now explain how the 1500 is better. Also explain why GM would put less capable brakes on a vehicle rated to tow so much more?
Your statements sound much like the 16 year old tundra fanboys trying to explain how their trucks are as capable for towing as a 2500/3500 diesel. Nobody is saying the 1500 is a terrible truck. It just isnt as stout, reliable or capable as the 2500 without a lot of upgrades. I will give you that the 5.3 gets better mpgs as a soccer mom truck. It is a slightly smoother ride, at the expense of softer springs. But to claim that it is as capable is laughable especially when you havent owned both.

 

[CampStewart]

My point here is that everyone is more concerned about a truck and chassis that performs well under a the conditions it will be driven only 0.01% of the time for a ridiculous premium which could be used to pay for gas and have an exceptionally capable vehicle for 99.9% you will be driving it.

PS, if you are towing a 30ft camper you are not overlanding or going off road EVER, so a 2500 truck will be a perfect highway cruiser. I run my 1500 on trails that no 2500 ever even think of doing and very few built Jeeps venture out on at a fraction of the cost.

To each their own, but financially and from a practical point you don't need a 2500 truck if you plan on keeping it in your driveway or as a commuter over 90% of it's life.

Ive owned 3 but still don't understand the ridiculous premium that you claim one pays for a 2500 that you keep talking about, can you please explain it a little more? What makes your 1500 so much better off road that yours can go places that no 2500 could ever think of going? Are you saying that with similar mods to your 1500 a 2500 still couldn't go to the same places. if so then why not? If on that .001 percent of the time you are off road and your 1/2 ton component fails and you need a tow or parts brought in that a 3/4 ton part such as a 14 bolt axle would have failed also? Since you think your vehicle is so much more capable than most everything except for a few jeeps out there you should make those claims on pirate and see how much support you get lol. Someone there may have a 2500 suburban or some other inferior rig and may call you out for a day of offroading to back up your boastful claims.

 

[jeep-N-montero]

Jeep-n-montero,

I agree, but it's been a year and I'm still waiting to see a picture of your 2500 hooked up to a 10,000lbs trailer you claim to tow everyday or a picture of your truck that's not in your driveway.

I have never claimed to tow 10k, we tow a 5,500lb boat/trailer and our Yukon has never seen anything more than a rough dirt road.

 

[jeep-N-montero]

My point here is that everyone is more concerned about a truck and chassis that performs well under a the conditions it will be driven only 0.01% of the time for a ridiculous premium which could be used to pay for gas and have an exceptionally capable vehicle for 99.9% you will be driving it.

PS, if you are towing a 30ft camper you are not overlanding or going off road EVER, so a 2500 truck will be a perfect highway cruiser. I run my 1500 on trails that no 2500 ever even think of doing and very few built Jeeps venture out on at a fraction of the cost.

To each their own, but financially and from a practical point you don't need a 2500 truck if you plan on keeping it in your driveway or as a commuter over 90% of it's life.

Yes, to each their own, but yet you keep blabbering on about how much better your 1500 is than the 2500. Most of us are not trying to have fun on a poor man's budget, so mpg is not something we really consider when we buy toys, I would wager I spent more just on fishing last year than you have invested in your high and mighty truck including what you paid for it....

 

[jeep-N-montero]

Then why have you spent so much time trying to turn your 1500 into a 2500? All the coolers, brake and suspension upgrades? Speaking of brakes, how many pistons does each caliper have on a 1500? How many on the 2500? Now explain how the 1500 is better. Also explain why GM would put less capable brakes on a vehicle rated to tow so much more?
Your statements sound much like the 16 year old tundra fanboys trying to explain how their trucks are as capable for towing as a 2500/3500 diesel. Nobody is saying the 1500 is a terrible truck. It just isnt as stout, reliable or capable as the 2500 without a lot of upgrades. I will give you that the 5.3 gets better mpgs as a soccer mom truck. It is a slightly smoother ride, at the expense of softer springs. But to claim that it is as capable is laughable especially when you havent owned both.

You stated that much more politely than I would have but you were very much on point.

 

[CrazyDrei]

I have never claimed to tow 10k, we tow a 5,500lb boat/trailer and our Yukon has never seen anything more than a rough dirt road.

Jeep-n-montero,

You have a perfect truck for your need, you do not feel the boat behind you even with 6 people in the Yukon. My Sub is the worst possible vehicle for your intended use just as your Yukon will not last on the trails I drive daily.

But just as you are on the extreme end of the spectrum of the multitude uses of our vehicles, mine is at the polar opposite end of the spectrum. You have the biggest overkill you can have to tow a boat reliably and safely, I run desert trails on the lowest budget I possibly can. Both of our vehicles fit our needs perfectly and this is the beauty of GMT800 platform weather you get the 1500 or 2500 chassis.

And I hate to sound like a hippocrite but I will be getting a 2013 Suburban 2500 or 2014 Yukon XL 2500 withing a few months to tow a 7-9,000lbs trailer across the country several times this coming summer.

 

[CrazyDrei]

Then why have you spent so much time trying to turn your 1500 into a 2500? All the coolers, brake and suspension upgrades?

Looking back on it I did replace and upgrade some parts in my truck turning it into a lighter version of a 2500. Factory radiator, factory tranny cooler, factory brakes, I'll get to it later. And suspension upgrade was for stiffer springs so I can blast through the desert at 45-60mph safely. All the parts are 1500 parts on my truck except the motor. I have a Summit tow cam ($220), custom tune ($200) and about to put on the traiblazer SS intake manifold ($100) so for $500 plus gaskets my LM7 cranks out more HP and torque than a 6.0 LQ4 or an LQ9.

Speaking of brakes, how many pistons does each caliper have on a 1500? How many on the 2500? Now explain how the 1500 is better.

All my calipers have 2 pistons just like some of the 2500, most 2500s only have single piston rear calipers. My front disks are over an 1" larger diameter and pistons themselves are approximately 1/2" larger diameter than 2500 front brakes. My rears rotors are almost 2" larger diameter and pistons are also approximately 10mm larger diameter than same year 2500s. Bigger piston + larger diameter rotor = more clamping force = better brakes, so my brakes are way better than any 2500 brakes.

Also explain why GM would put less capable brakes on a vehicle rated to tow so much more?

I was highly surprised by that fact also, how can a 1500 have significantly better brakes than a 2500. I am leaving hydroboost out of this because in 4x4 low at idle my vacuum brakes overpower the crappy power steering pump GM put in our trucks. The answer is quite simple: 4L80, thats it. 1500 have a 4L60 which if driven hard sucks and needs constant rebuilding. 2500s run a much more durable 4L80, which makes sense if you have ever towed anything, you don't use brakes to control your downhill speed you use the engine and the transmission. Since the user will rely on the 4L80 and torque converter to tow, you don't need big brakes on a 6-7,000lbs truck for daily driving. Thus 1500 soccer mom race car wanna be Suburbans get bigger and stronger brakes at the expense of a less reliable transmission.

Nobody is saying the 1500 is a terrible truck. It just isnt as stout, reliable or capable as the 2500 without a lot of upgrades. I will give you that the 5.3 gets better mpgs as a soccer mom truck. It is a slightly smoother ride, at the expense of softer springs.

Correct, 1500 is an excellent truck and so is the 2500. It's only downside is that it's not as stout reliable or capable when towing a large trailer than a 2500. 1500 are made for soccer moms who are too cool to be seen in a minivan, 2500 are made for soccer dads that are too poor to buy a diesel.