Lucky j
Explorer
When you use it multiple time on the trail, reseting proper spooling ur load in the trail is not always feasible. But what you say also apply to maintaning a good steel cable over the years.
Go with all soft shackles?
- Thread starter deeve
- Start date
When you use it multiple time on the trail, reseting proper spooling ur load in the trail is not always feasible. But what you say also apply to maintaning a good steel cable over the years.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
How often do you use your winch?
I've got synthetic lines that are 7+ years old. I've worked with some that are 15+.
On the flip side. I have seen steel cable damaged on the first pull of a new ( untested ) winch on many a trail ride.
Neither option is stupid proof.
Lucky j
Explorer
If you want to show us how one is good and one is bad, at least, set it up as to doing the exact same demonstartion. In this case, a lost of the energy was stored in the purple starp.
I would have like to see the same 1 ton black nylon strap broke with the synthetic line ancored with a steel hook and that purple strap passing thru the car window. How long do you thing that synthetic line would have last robbing agains any thing in that vid??
I think this vi is more about how not to use a winch line and look this synthetic line is dangerous, but will not kill you, or maybe if you get it in the trowth.
I would have like to see the same 1 ton black nylon strap broke with the synthetic line ancored with a steel hook and that purple strap passing thru the car window. How long do you thing that synthetic line would have last robbing agains any thing in that vid??
I think this vi is more about how not to use a winch line and look this synthetic line is dangerous, but will not kill you, or maybe if you get it in the trowth.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
Synthetic winch lines have the same or better ( less ) elongation at break than steel cable.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
It's not silly. Perhaps the margins are unnecessarily large (design yield is 5 x WLL and proof is 2 x WLL on a B30.26 bow shackle) but at least you know it's capability and the manufacturer has specific inspection criteria to know it's condition. It's a go/no-go decision requiring only a caliper.
I run synthetic winch rope, it makes sense to me and the advantages outweigh the downsides I think. I would prefer something that isn't susceptible to abrasion and that bugs me about synthetic winch lines. But it's a manageable thing since they give visual guidelines to judge that.
Which reminds me, when I re-spooled my winch line (from a major supplier) I noticed they didn't taper the spliced ends, just a Bummel with a blunt buried end (like you might do in haste splicing a broken rope in the field). It was like that for a few years. When I bought it I didn't know how to do splices and never knew to look. It was only because I bought fids and was doing my own splicing that I realized this. Once I knew to look the bulge was plainly obvious and this is a major reason synthetic rope might break, from the shear of a blunt buried end. I cut the ends completely off and respliced both ends of the winch line and my extension.
It's that kind of thing that worries me about soft rigging. Workmanship is critical and I'm betting most people just spool rope and use soft shackles without knowing the first thing about them. I didn't when I put mine on, I'm not an exception. Then future inspection isn't clear cut. There are criteria for nylon slings, for a steel rigging, etc. There's elongation for synthetic ropes.
But what is the criteria (other than logging uses) for soft shackles? I'm not trying to argumentative, I want to know. It seems grossly oversizing and "not abusing" is all we have. But just picking one up how are you supposed to know this? Has it been subjected to a dynamic recovery on a sharp end of a clevis at some point? No idea unless fibers are actually cut.
The point about recovery points on vehicle is completely valid. Our trucks not being from the military and industry don't come with placards that say unequivocally "3 TON" or whatever. So we rarely know for sure. Which IMO make the whole argument over lightweight synthetic gear moot. Is the additional weight of a shackle going to matter if it's the bumper that's released or your soft shackle is still attached to a clevis with sheared bolts?
A steel bow shackle isn't going to break, no piece of the puzzle is just going to break. If you've maintained your junk and done your stuck analysis and rigging analysis there's no reason not to trust any of your equipment. You take the same safety precautions regardless.
I run synthetic winch rope, it makes sense to me and the advantages outweigh the downsides I think. I would prefer something that isn't susceptible to abrasion and that bugs me about synthetic winch lines. But it's a manageable thing since they give visual guidelines to judge that.
Which reminds me, when I re-spooled my winch line (from a major supplier) I noticed they didn't taper the spliced ends, just a Bummel with a blunt buried end (like you might do in haste splicing a broken rope in the field). It was like that for a few years. When I bought it I didn't know how to do splices and never knew to look. It was only because I bought fids and was doing my own splicing that I realized this. Once I knew to look the bulge was plainly obvious and this is a major reason synthetic rope might break, from the shear of a blunt buried end. I cut the ends completely off and respliced both ends of the winch line and my extension.
It's that kind of thing that worries me about soft rigging. Workmanship is critical and I'm betting most people just spool rope and use soft shackles without knowing the first thing about them. I didn't when I put mine on, I'm not an exception. Then future inspection isn't clear cut. There are criteria for nylon slings, for a steel rigging, etc. There's elongation for synthetic ropes.
But what is the criteria (other than logging uses) for soft shackles? I'm not trying to argumentative, I want to know. It seems grossly oversizing and "not abusing" is all we have. But just picking one up how are you supposed to know this? Has it been subjected to a dynamic recovery on a sharp end of a clevis at some point? No idea unless fibers are actually cut.
The point about recovery points on vehicle is completely valid. Our trucks not being from the military and industry don't come with placards that say unequivocally "3 TON" or whatever. So we rarely know for sure. Which IMO make the whole argument over lightweight synthetic gear moot. Is the additional weight of a shackle going to matter if it's the bumper that's released or your soft shackle is still attached to a clevis with sheared bolts?
A steel bow shackle isn't going to break, no piece of the puzzle is just going to break. If you've maintained your junk and done your stuck analysis and rigging analysis there's no reason not to trust any of your equipment. You take the same safety precautions regardless.
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Metcalf
Expedition Leader
When you use it multiple time on the trail, reseting proper spooling ur load in the trail is not always feasible. But what you say also apply to maintaning a good steel cable over the years.
In general, once the base layers are set with proper tension with synthetic line you have very little to worry about. The problem is that people generally spool their new synthetic line on with ZERO tension by hand. I see this over and over again.....
I see a lot of the same issues with steel cable also.
Basically people stick a winch on the front and have very little knowledge on how to use it.
We are also fighting against a lot of 'Don't use your winch' stigma in the USA in general.
MOguy
Explorer
This time of year about every time I go head out, monthly or more. In the winter I get calls often but the chances are getting slimmer and slimmer I will help you. Most of the time people have issues in the winter is because they are dumbasses and I don't want to enable dumbassness anymore. In the winter unless you are family there is about an 99% chance I won't help you.
On Sunday I had to rescue my son's friend from a mud hole, I wasn't even wheeling. I have gotten calls at all hours to help my bro in law get something out of the river or mud next to the river. Usually they are fishing and didn't realize the water was as high as it was or the bank didn't look that muddy.
I use to help fall trees and other tasks around my property. More than likely my cable will be dragged through the mud most time it is used. I am not opposed to synthetic line but I don't want one. I like the idea of the soft shackles because they are light but again, too much mud. I am sure if I had used rope they would suffer the same fait as my recovery straps do. I know if I took care of a rope line the way I should it would last longer but that ain't gonna happen.
Last time I used it on myself (a few years back) I was using my Jeep with my disc to disc up my food plot, mud doesn't have to be as deep to get stuck in when you are pulling a disc almost as big as your Jeep. The time before that I used it on myself I was checking out an area they were logging on my land and the skidder left ruts that didn't look that deep.
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Metcalf
Expedition Leader
In my opinion, adding extra weight into the rigging system is very bad. This is especially true for large 5x rated steel shackles attached to questionable recovery points. That is how the above picture happened when I was on Ultimate Adventure 2014. The mounting point on the stuck vehicle failed and the entire thing, including lots of heavy steel like the shackle, went flying. It was really lucky that nobody got hurt. The steel on the bumper on the back of Coopers truck is formed 3/16"!
Soft shackle inspection. You are using the same criteria you do for the winch line, especially in the noose area. That is where they will fail at MBS typically.
This is a good guide to get you started.
My personal cut off point is more than a full strand of damage in the noose area.
The fuzzing in the body isn't generally anything to be worried about in my experience.
How do you know a steel shackle you pick up is good? Has it been overloaded? Dropped on a hard surface? Is it a quality unit? How do you know.....
A caliper isn't going to tell you the quality of the steel.
I've refused to use, or retired, a fair number of steel shackles......bent pins, bent bodies, corrosion pitting, etc.
In the end, we just gloss over a TON of issues with steel shackles because they make us FEEL better. There are just as many plusses and minuses, not only to the shackle themselves, but also more importantly what the shackle is attaching to. Generally people just ignore that because it is steel and makes them feel better.
LandCruiserPhil
Expedition Leader
True and we have done plenty splicing on the Sahara but with time-sensitive winching you make decisions based on the safety of the group. I also tied 4" straps and both broke again but the knot held up on both.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
I've never had a winch line or soft shackle fail because of mud.....or sand....or rocks.....or snow...or ice. I've been in lots of all of them.
There are a LOT of Rainforest Challenge competition vehicles running synthetic winch line in some of the nastiest muddiest environments you can imagine.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't give your winch line a wash once a year to help it out, but if that is too much work/bother I can't really help you.
I inspected my steel winch lines back in the day ( and lightly oiled them ) just as often. Steel cable isn't an instant win either.
LandCruiserPhil
Expedition Leader
In my opinion, adding extra weight into the rigging system is very bad. This is especially true for large 5x rated steel shackles attached to questionable recovery points. That is how the above picture happened when I was on Ultimate Adventure 2014. The mounting point on the stuck vehicle failed and the entire thing, including lots of heavy steel like the shackle, went flying. It was really lucky that nobody got hurt. The steel on the bumper on the back of Coopers truck is formed 3/16"!
Soft shackle inspection. You are using the same criteria you do for the winch line, especially in the noose area. That is where they will fail at MBS typically.
This is a good guide to get you started.
My personal cut off point is more than a full strand of damage in the noose area.
The fuzzing in the body isn't generally anything to be worried about in my experience.
How do you know a steel shackle you pick up is good? Has it been overloaded? Dropped on a hard surface? Is it a quality unit? How do you know.....
A caliper isn't going to tell you the quality of the steel.
I've refused to use, or retired, a fair number of steel shackles......bent pins, bent bodies, corrosion pitting, etc.
In the end, we just gloss over a TON of issues with steel shackles because they make us FEEL better. There are just as many plusses and minuses, not only to the shackle themselves, but also more importantly what the shackle is attaching to. Generally people just ignore that because it is steel and makes them feel better.
WoW! What was the weight of the metal that hit the truck.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
For me....having a less-questionable spliced connection would be worth the time vs going with the knot?
To put some humor in it.....where you needing to run from bandits or something?
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
I believe it was one of those receiver hitch to steel soft shackle adapters ( all steel ) , the steel shackle, and then the part of the hitch/welds that failed.
I'd call it 10-15lbs?
LandCruiserPhil
Expedition Leader
We were very close at times to the Algeria and Libya borders but I will save the details for another thread.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
Sounds spicy.