Good article in Outside.

[rruff]

GVWR might a black box, but it is a legal limit. If you're 2000 over and injure or kill someone, it will almost certainly be an issue.

You might be surprised to learn that if you are 2000 lbs under GVWR... and you injure or kill someone, it will certainly be an issue.

 

[rruff]

I’ve seen all the detailed videos of this incident and while the guys rig was way heavy, it had been well built, including frame mods for the weight. The problem was he was bombing at 70mph down the road in DVNP got airborne in a dip he misgauged and slammed into a bank and then bent his frame and perfed his radiator. The whole video sequence is pretty educational, including what he had to do to get out of there.

His frame mods were for torsion (cross members) and made the frame weaker than stock, since they terminated right where the frame failed, directly behind the cab. On a Tundra with a 5.5' bed that is a weak point anyway, and then add a big load with a CG behind the axle, and slam into a ravine at 70 mph...

 

[ITTOG]

False info however... promulgating the tired trope that GVWR is the "safe and legal limit". Neither is true.

I might concede safe but not legally. Why do you think that?

What makes you more knowledgeable than the manufacturers?

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[dstefan]

His frame mods were for torsion (cross members) and made the frame weaker than stock, since they terminated right where the frame failed, directly behind the cab. On a Tundra with a 5.5' bed that is a weak point anyway, and then add a big load with a CG behind the axle, and slam into a ravine at 70 mph...

You know I did wonder about that. Just points out the further downside to over modding rigs (especially incorrectly or not taking structural limitations into account) beyond just the added weight

 

[1000arms]

This is the reason I went with a Ram 3500!

You Probably Need a Bigger Pickup Truck than You Think You Do

An unpopular, but entirely rational argument for the huge pickups everyone loves to hate

www.outsideonline.com

I distrust the author of the linked article. Wes Siler wrote, "Chains only work well in deep snow, and the additional traction they provide doesn’t go that much further than winter tires." https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/cars-trucks/winter-tires-trucks-suvs-crossovers/

He wrote about chains, which he seems to know little-to-nothing about. What other topics in his articles does he know little, or nothing, about?

...........................................

I do think it is wise to avoid overloading a vehicle. I also think many people carry way too much weight in the vehicles they have, especially when one considers how and where people drive them.

Stay safe!

 

[IdaSHO]

I might concede safe but not legally. Why do you think that?

This is the largest error in the claims within this thread, and so many others. GVWR in the US, so long as you do not operate commercially, is NOT the legal limit.

GVWR is not law. Never has been.
Some areas/states in the country have adopted additional laws/regs in efforts if curbing dangerously overloaded vehicles, as well as large RV’s that somehow do not fall into Class A licensing.

The only thing related to vehicle weight and law is registered weight. GVWR and registered weight are not the same. Some states even allow you to sneak under CDL Class B requirements by registering the vehicle at a lower weight. Same goes for non commercial. Our truck for instance, a 2011 F250 has a GCWR of 19,000 lbs. Though I only have it registered for 16k. Cheaper, and I simply do not need the full rating as we do not tow heavy. Point being, my registered weight is what is enforceable, NOT the mfg applied GVWR of the truck.

 

[rruff]

I might concede safe but not legally. Why do you think that?
What makes you more knowledgeable than the manufacturers?

The manufacturers set up 1/2 tons to ride and drive nice with no load, because that is how most people use them. Wheel, tire, and suspension upgrades make a world of difference in the ability to safely handle a load.

GVWR isn't a legal limit as far as the owner vs law/government is concerned. It's the manufacturers liability and warranty limit on the stock vehicle vs the owner. If you mod it (which we all do) they can deny liability or warranty on anything related to the modified parts. If you lose control of your vehicle you are liable regardless, but if it is modified or over GVWR, you'll have a tough time pinning any blame on the manufacturer. GVWR is a "black box" because they can set it wherever they like. It isn't based on test standards, except for HD trucks which have a handful of criteria to meet, and those are pretty bogus.

Where safety is concerned, stopping (single panic stop) and handling (quick maneuver or slalom) should be the main criteria I think. I investigated the stopping part, because IMO this is the most important... and what I found is that heavy vehicles take longer to stop. Even unloaded, a 1 ton will take longer to stop than a 1/2 ton because it is heavier. A big truck or RV will take ~2x the distance of a pickup... and little cars will stop a lot quicker than pickups. No matter how good your brakes are, weight and traction will be limiting factors. It may come as a surprise that the perfectly legal vehicles populating the roads have vastly different stopping abilities. The same goes for handling. There is no "standard". The tall, heavy, high CG vehicles will flip over a lot more readily than a typical car. Now hook up a big trailer and see how well you can maneuver! An 85 year old with poor eyesight, no reflexes, normal DL, and no practice driving anything bigger than an SUV, can buy a huge land yacht and hook up a trailer and hit the road. Perfectly legal.

Bottom line is... use a little sense, know your vehicle's stopping and handling limits, and drive within them. And also keep an eye out for what's behind or next to you, not just what is in front.

 

[ITTOG]

This is the largest error in the claims within this thread, and so many others. GVWR in the US, so long as you do not operate commercially, is NOT the legal limit.

GVWR is not law. Never has been.
Some areas/states in the country have adopted additional laws/regs in efforts if curbing dangerously overloaded vehicles, as well as large RV’s that somehow do not fall into Class A licensing.

The only thing related to vehicle weight and law is registered weight. GVWR and registered weight are not the same. Some states even allow you to sneak under CDL Class B requirements by registering the vehicle at a lower weight. Same goes for non commercial. Our truck for instance, a 2011 F250 has a GCWR of 19,000 lbs. Though I only have it registered for 16k. Cheaper, and I simply do not need the full rating as we do not tow heavy. Point being, my registered weight is what is enforceable, NOT the mfg applied GVWR of the truck.

The manufacturers set up 1/2 tons to ride and drive nice with no load, because that is how most people use them. Wheel, tire, and suspension upgrades make a world of difference in the ability to safely handle a load.

GVWR isn't a legal limit as far as the owner vs law/government is concerned. It's the manufacturers liability and warranty limit on the stock vehicle vs the owner. If you mod it (which we all do) they can deny liability or warranty on anything related to the modified parts. If you lose control of your vehicle you are liable regardless, but if it is modified or over GVWR, you'll have a tough time pinning any blame on the manufacturer. GVWR is a "black box" because they can set it wherever they like. It isn't based on test standards, except for HD trucks which have a handful of criteria to meet, and those are pretty bogus.

Where safety is concerned, stopping (single panic stop) and handling (quick maneuver or slalom) should be the main criteria I think. I investigated the stopping part, because IMO this is the most important... and what I found is that heavy vehicles take longer to stop. Even unloaded, a 1 ton will take longer to stop than a 1/2 ton because it is heavier. A big truck or RV will take ~2x the distance of a pickup... and little cars will stop a lot quicker than pickups. No matter how good your brakes are, weight and traction will be limiting factors. It may come as a surprise that the perfectly legal vehicles populating the roads have vastly different stopping abilities. The same goes for handling. There is no "standard". The tall, heavy, high CG vehicles will flip over a lot more readily than a typical car. Now hook up a big trailer and see how well you can maneuver! An 85 year old with poor eyesight, no reflexes, normal DL, and no practice driving anything bigger than an SUV, can buy a huge land yacht and hook up a trailer and hit the road. Perfectly legal.

Bottom line is... use a little sense, know your vehicle's stopping and handling limits, and drive within them. And also keep an eye out for what's behind or next to you, not just what is in front.

Not to get into a debate but if you were to get in an accident because you are overloaded the only number the lawyers will care about is the GVWR. So it may not be written in law but it is definitely the practical number that will be used by lawyers, at least for the states I have lived in. I guess if you were also towing then the would use the GCWR as well.

 

[IdaSHO]

Not to get into a debate but if you were to get in an accident because you are overloaded the only number the lawyers will care about is the GVWR. So it may not be written in law but it is definitely the practical number that will be used by lawyers, at least for the states I have lived in. I guess if you were also towing then the would use the GCWR as well.

Id love to see an example or two of such a case, but I doubt you will find reference to it at all. 👍

 

[Dougnuts]

What about the price? A Tacoma TRD Pro comes out of a showroom at about $52,000. Replacing the suspension, brakes, tires, and regearing it adds about $15,000 to that total. The roof rack, bumper, and lights on our example will be about another $3,000. The Bowen Customs tray is $18,400. That’s around $88,000 that I can count just by looking at a photo. Super Duties start at about $44,000, but Heinel paid $92,000 for her Platinum Tremor. She’ll make up that difference between her rig and this Tacoma from fuel costs alone in under 20,000 miles

Not sure why he'd compare a highly modified Tacoma to a stock Super Duty, specifically as it pertains to the tray, rack, bumper, and lights, which totals $21,400.

Using current national averages, 20k miles a year in a Tacoma getting 15mpg versus a Super Duty 6.7L diesel getting 19mpg = the Super Duty saves $684 per year in fuel costs.

That's a 31 year, 620k mile payback, when you exclude the mods listed in the first sentence.

 

[rruff]

Not to get into a debate but if you were to get in an accident because you are overloaded the only number the lawyers will care about is the GVWR. So it may not be written in law but it is definitely the practical number that will be used by lawyers, at least for the states I have lived in. I guess if you were also towing then the would use the GCWR as well.

Do you have experience with this? I don't know how there could be such a thing as "getting into an accident because you are overloaded". So long as your stopping and maneuvering ability is at least as good as the worst "legal" offenders on the road (a very low bar), the cause would be human error... just like any accident. Not leaving enough stopping distance or driving too fast around a turn for instance... or poor equipment maintenance and function, which is also the driver's responsibility.

 

[rruff]

Not sure why he'd compare a highly modified Tacoma to a stock Super Duty

The amount of bunk in that article is pretty epic. I'm sad that anyone would describe it as "good".

Superdutys climb mountain passes in 10th gear at 80mph while hauling a camper and pulling a trailer, and get 18 mpg while doing it. Meanwhile a stock Tacoma drops from 18 mpg to 12 mpg on flat ground, if you merely put 33s on it.

 

[ITTOG]

Do you have experience with this? I don't know how there could be such a thing as "getting into an accident because you are overloaded". So long as your stopping and maneuvering ability is at least as good as the worst "legal" offenders on the road (a very low bar), the cause would be human error... just like any accident. Not leaving enough stopping distance or driving too fast around a turn for instance... or poor equipment maintenance and function, which is also the driver's responsibility.

Luckily no but there was an accident in my area about a decade ago and this topic was at the center of the investigation.