suburbanjo
Adventurer
Hey Kevin,
Yes thinking about 4.5 ft tall with 3 ft pop up for about 7 ft. Rest of family under 5'4" but in 8 years we'll see...
Hard Side Four Season Trailer
- Thread starter suburbanjo
- Start date
Hey Kevin,
Yes thinking about 4.5 ft tall with 3 ft pop up for about 7 ft. Rest of family under 5'4" but in 8 years we'll see...
suburbanjo
Adventurer
Regarding ground clearance/breakover/tail drag etc... The trailer is currently about 16-17' with the body being about 13-14' long. I'm looking to pair with a 100 series. I'm looking at having floor at 24" with ladder frame below that. Looking to put on 33" wheels. Any words of wisdom on any or all of those dimensions?
suburbanjo
Adventurer
Also I'm thinking about a 2" sandwich panel with aluminum skins and styrene inside? (Blue stuff at home improvement store.) Anyone have any experience with that? I'm in manufacturing and know a lot about aluminum but not sandwich panels. I don't want the weight of fiberglass nor do I want tubular skeleton construction if I can avoid due to thermal conducting. I don't want honeycomb either. Too expensive and I'm thinking doesn't insulate well. I'm concerned about the thermal expansion of the aluminum relative to the adjacent materials or perhaps the temp differential between inside and outside. Thoughts?
The Artisan
Adventurer
Look at my build for ideas.
Kevin
suburbanjo
Adventurer
Wall Material/Construction Selection and/or Process... also Manufacturer Master Lists
Has anyone kept a manufacturer master list for components for their campers?
Also regarding insulated wall panels... somebody please sell me on using fiberglass over aluminum. I know it's a good insulator, it's stable, rigid, other? But can't weld, bend, not easy to fasten, and heavy. I really would like to skin at least the outside and likely the inside of my camper with aluminum and have the middle shear capable material. Is there any process or product that works well that uses aluminum skins? Ideally I think I'd like to build the hollow inside and outside shell of the camper and squirt in insulation maybe. Is there any such product that has some shear strength but still low density? I think I read somewhere on this site that polystyrene (low density blue board at big box) may/will disintegrate into powder when exposed to shear forces? Does anyone have direct experience with this?
Calling all experts! I'm really used to designing aluminum formed sheetmetal, tubing, welding, riveting but have limited experience with low density non-metallic materials or adhesives. Please help! Honeycomb is super strong but I'm assuming not awesome insulating capabilities. Is that a bad assumption?... Does the trapped air insulate well? Can I use a petroleum based honeycomb material with the aluminum skins?
Someone's got this all figured out and can tell me in plain English w/o prejudice what a good direction is to go. This isn't rocket science right? Or is it?
Thanks in advance for your help! Much appreciated. What am I missing?
Has anyone kept a manufacturer master list for components for their campers?
Also regarding insulated wall panels... somebody please sell me on using fiberglass over aluminum. I know it's a good insulator, it's stable, rigid, other? But can't weld, bend, not easy to fasten, and heavy. I really would like to skin at least the outside and likely the inside of my camper with aluminum and have the middle shear capable material. Is there any process or product that works well that uses aluminum skins? Ideally I think I'd like to build the hollow inside and outside shell of the camper and squirt in insulation maybe. Is there any such product that has some shear strength but still low density? I think I read somewhere on this site that polystyrene (low density blue board at big box) may/will disintegrate into powder when exposed to shear forces? Does anyone have direct experience with this?
Calling all experts! I'm really used to designing aluminum formed sheetmetal, tubing, welding, riveting but have limited experience with low density non-metallic materials or adhesives. Please help! Honeycomb is super strong but I'm assuming not awesome insulating capabilities. Is that a bad assumption?... Does the trapped air insulate well? Can I use a petroleum based honeycomb material with the aluminum skins?
Someone's got this all figured out and can tell me in plain English w/o prejudice what a good direction is to go. This isn't rocket science right? Or is it?
Thanks in advance for your help! Much appreciated. What am I missing?
suburbanjo
Adventurer
Can anyone help answer any questions on wall construction per above? Pretty please with sugar on top?
The Artisan
Adventurer
Sub,
Don't know about spraying the foam but look at my build for tips..
Kevin
Don't know about spraying the foam but look at my build for tips..
Kevin
Regarding your questions on materials
In the Other Custom Expedition Camper Forum there are many, many builds with detailed discussions about all the skinning and insulation variations you have mentioned - and more. I suggest you browse through those for ideas and information to help inform your decision. With all the slideouts you are showing, it looks like an engineering problem that needs a fairly rigid solution to hold up under off-road use. Lot of torsion on the main box, which has a number of holes for the slideouts, plus torsion on each of the smaller boxes that are the slideouts. I dunno what to advise, but since you are very familiar with aluminum, I think you will be better off sticking with that and putting an aluminum skin on an aluminum frame. Insulate the interior cavities recognizing that you are going to have thermal transfer issues due to the framing members, and live with it. You might be able to minimize that with a thin foam product (like Reflectix) between the framing members and the inner skin. If you use a baltic birch inner panel, that will also help with the insulation.
In the Other Custom Expedition Camper Forum there are many, many builds with detailed discussions about all the skinning and insulation variations you have mentioned - and more. I suggest you browse through those for ideas and information to help inform your decision. With all the slideouts you are showing, it looks like an engineering problem that needs a fairly rigid solution to hold up under off-road use. Lot of torsion on the main box, which has a number of holes for the slideouts, plus torsion on each of the smaller boxes that are the slideouts. I dunno what to advise, but since you are very familiar with aluminum, I think you will be better off sticking with that and putting an aluminum skin on an aluminum frame. Insulate the interior cavities recognizing that you are going to have thermal transfer issues due to the framing members, and live with it. You might be able to minimize that with a thin foam product (like Reflectix) between the framing members and the inner skin. If you use a baltic birch inner panel, that will also help with the insulation.
CoyoteThistle
Adventurer
I like the ambitious design criteria!
Honeycomb panels generally claim an R-value of around 3 per inch. Most foams are in the 5 per inch realm. Is that a big difference? I don't know! Foam is about 40% better insulator I guess.
Honeycomb composite panel construction would not use a frame though so no thermal bridging - might perform better than foam between aluminum frame? Foam composite panels without frame best for insulation I think.
On another topic, how would the slide outs on the sides not interfere with the rear slide out when they are all slid in?
Honeycomb panels generally claim an R-value of around 3 per inch. Most foams are in the 5 per inch realm. Is that a big difference? I don't know! Foam is about 40% better insulator I guess.
Honeycomb composite panel construction would not use a frame though so no thermal bridging - might perform better than foam between aluminum frame? Foam composite panels without frame best for insulation I think.
On another topic, how would the slide outs on the sides not interfere with the rear slide out when they are all slid in?
suburbanjo
Adventurer
Thanks Dan! I'll have to look through the other camper section a bit more... but from what I've seen no alum skin structural panels. Maybe there's a good reason like thermal expansion distorting panel. From memory I believe I calculated about an 1/8th inch variation in 12 feet in sheets based onot temperature differential from 70 degree inside to -10? deg outside... so only a 2 inch space that doesn't seem like much of an issue. Thanks for your reply!
suburbanjo
Adventurer
Hey Coyote,
Thanks for the reply! Yes honeycomb or similar would be nice! I'll have to look at some more of the other threads to see what the other guys have done.
Regarding the slide outs... the concept drawings do look like full slides but they are actually gonna be a hybrid slide/fold out. The rear bed and maybe the side beds will be on slides but the ceiling (which closes and seals to the side of the pop up), sides and back fold out for each bed cavity.
Definitely some complexities but I like the design challenge. We'll see, maybe I'll end up defeaturing a bit. I like to aim for everything and then compromise later.
Thanks again!
Thanks for the reply! Yes honeycomb or similar would be nice! I'll have to look at some more of the other threads to see what the other guys have done.
Regarding the slide outs... the concept drawings do look like full slides but they are actually gonna be a hybrid slide/fold out. The rear bed and maybe the side beds will be on slides but the ceiling (which closes and seals to the side of the pop up), sides and back fold out for each bed cavity.
Definitely some complexities but I like the design challenge. We'll see, maybe I'll end up defeaturing a bit. I like to aim for everything and then compromise later.
Thanks again!
suburbanjo
Adventurer
Dan,
Thanks for pointing me to Coyote's build!
Coyote,
Really nice work! It certainly doesn't look homemade... I got a charge out of your girlfriend mentioning that! I'm guessing that honeycomb would work on aluminium skins.?
Thanks for pointing me to Coyote's build!
Coyote,
Really nice work! It certainly doesn't look homemade... I got a charge out of your girlfriend mentioning that!
I'm guessing that honeycomb would work on aluminium skins.?
CoyoteThistle
Adventurer
Okay, gotcha on the slideouts. Those will be an interesting challenge to design/engineer. Should be doable though and super cool.
Yeah, I don't see why you couldn't bond aluminum to the plywood/honeycomb core. As long as you could keep moisture from getting to the wood that would be a slick way to go.
Here's an older thread where aluminum skins were used over (I think) a composite panel of some sort. His aluminum panels were already painted I think so that's one less step!
Dan's idea of honeycomb (or foam?) core aluminum-skinned panels is a good one too. If you're comfortable working with the stuff, that would limit the steps involved in building. Wonder what they cost?
Yeah, I don't see why you couldn't bond aluminum to the plywood/honeycomb core. As long as you could keep moisture from getting to the wood that would be a slick way to go.
Here's an older thread where aluminum skins were used over (I think) a composite panel of some sort. His aluminum panels were already painted I think so that's one less step!
Dan's idea of honeycomb (or foam?) core aluminum-skinned panels is a good one too. If you're comfortable working with the stuff, that would limit the steps involved in building. Wonder what they cost?