Heavy gauge wire/cable Crimp or Solder for Offroad use?
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Electrical is my livelihood from being an EE and a construction manager. I also have a craftsman background as a master electrician so, plenty of real-world hands-on experience there before I got academic degrees. The topic here is large gauge automotive use; IMHO Hands down, proper crimping is the way to go. With small gauge and some specific circumstances soldering is better. I figured I was not the only so with a little google search I was able to find and copy an argument I agree with....interweb. what a time saver....
copy/past from.... http://www.marinewireandcable.com/2013/11/crimping-vs-soldering-marine-cable-and.html
Crimping vs Soldering Marine Cable and Wire Connectors
So this is one of the most debated topics in the marine wire world where there are some valid arguments on both sides but I will present some fact and opinions on why I prefer to use crimped connections only.
When it comes to ABYC here's what they have to say on the matter:
11.14.5.7 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.
EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.
So it appears that ABYC will allow for an "only solder" connection
An important factor to consider is the requirement of stranded cable for use on boats. The same stranded wire requirement is present in many motive (moving) applications where machinery or vehicles sustain vibration which will cause a solid wire to fatigue much faster and induce breakage. The stranded wiring allows vibration to be absorbed over the length of the wire where a solid conductor will focus the vibration at the point of least mobility which by default is the connector since it is secured and immobile.
The importance is the call for a mechanical means of securing the wire to the connector which is accomplished via crimping. With the proper crimping tool using the correct crimping force you'll have a connection that well exceeds any recommended pull out requirements and still allows the stranded wire to do it's job of absorbing the vibrations.
Soldering has with it some inherent drawbacks which are non-disputable. I'm not looking at a benefits comparison but strictly a drawback comparison.
Wicking - Drawback #1
With soldering the melted solder will flow into and between the strands traveling in both directions from the point of soldering. This effect is known as "wicking" and the solder is "wicked" up into the strands of the wire much as a traditional wick will soak up a liquid. The issue arises that the solder creates a solid mass from the stranded wires just outside the connector and creates a new focal point for vibration which can cause the solder to crack inside or crate fatigue on the individual strands facilitating their premature breakage.
No Mechanical Bond - Drawback #2
If a connection is solely soldered there'd be no mechanical connection, nothing to physically hold the connection in place other than the solder itself functioning as a metal "glue" which was not solder's intent. Under a short circuit condition sufficient heat could be focused at the solder connection to cause the solder to re-flow and the wire and connector could separate. This will not occur in a mechanically crimped connection which relies on the connector and wire which have substantially higher melting points than the solder.
Solder then Crimp will Crush the Solder - Drawback #3
There are those that will attempt to solder and then crimp for "doouble protection" but this is a bad idea on multiple fronts. The first being that the crimp may not form properly with the added mass from the solder in the connector being crimped. The crimp force could crack the solder causing a high electrical resistance point.
Crimp then Solder also Functionally Unnecessary - Drawback #4
There are others who will crimp the wire then remove some of the insulation from just beyond the connector and attempt to backfill with solder to "seal out" moisture and air from entering the stranding there. The issue is that the solder will not flow past the crimp so you'd in essence be putting a mass of solder into the stranded wire just outside the connection which again creates a solid mass as the focal point of vibration and would cause premature strand breakage or other fatigue related problems.
Yet others will drill a hole into the closed end of the connector and fill the small air void with solder. Well, the connection was already closed and sealed to start with and drilling a hole and then filling it with solder accomplishes no more than was already there before this is attempted.
Increased Resistance - Drawback #5
Lead is not as good a conductor as copper. The resistance of copper is 13 times less than lead so why introduce it into the circuit if not necessary? The crimp will be a copper connector and a copper wire and the crimp pressure with seal out air and moisture creating a low resistance connection
In all fairness let's take a look at possible drawbacks to a crimped connection:
Crimp Not Done Properly - Only Drawback
Simple. If you don't crimp properly using low quality tools or the wrong size connector and wire combination then you might have a problem. I fully believe this is where any popularity arose for solder since at a glance it would be easier to use solder as a glue to hold a connection and know it there over the "risk" of making a poor crimp connection such as those who "just hit it with a hammer". That's not really apples to apples, use good tools and follow manufacturer recommendations and you won't have a problem.
When a crimp is properly formed it will last indefinitely. Add to the crimp a piece of adhesive lined heat shrink tubing to cover and seal the joint where the wire meets the connector and you have a totally sealed connection.
So in review, just looking at the potential disadvantages I have yet to hear an argument that would move soldering ahead of crimping...heck, I haven't heard an argument than even makes them equal choices. Crimping is the way to go.
copy/past from.... http://www.marinewireandcable.com/2013/11/crimping-vs-soldering-marine-cable-and.html
Crimping vs Soldering Marine Cable and Wire Connectors
So this is one of the most debated topics in the marine wire world where there are some valid arguments on both sides but I will present some fact and opinions on why I prefer to use crimped connections only.
When it comes to ABYC here's what they have to say on the matter:
11.14.5.7 Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.
EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.
So it appears that ABYC will allow for an "only solder" connection
An important factor to consider is the requirement of stranded cable for use on boats. The same stranded wire requirement is present in many motive (moving) applications where machinery or vehicles sustain vibration which will cause a solid wire to fatigue much faster and induce breakage. The stranded wiring allows vibration to be absorbed over the length of the wire where a solid conductor will focus the vibration at the point of least mobility which by default is the connector since it is secured and immobile.
The importance is the call for a mechanical means of securing the wire to the connector which is accomplished via crimping. With the proper crimping tool using the correct crimping force you'll have a connection that well exceeds any recommended pull out requirements and still allows the stranded wire to do it's job of absorbing the vibrations.
Soldering has with it some inherent drawbacks which are non-disputable. I'm not looking at a benefits comparison but strictly a drawback comparison.
Wicking - Drawback #1
With soldering the melted solder will flow into and between the strands traveling in both directions from the point of soldering. This effect is known as "wicking" and the solder is "wicked" up into the strands of the wire much as a traditional wick will soak up a liquid. The issue arises that the solder creates a solid mass from the stranded wires just outside the connector and creates a new focal point for vibration which can cause the solder to crack inside or crate fatigue on the individual strands facilitating their premature breakage.
No Mechanical Bond - Drawback #2
If a connection is solely soldered there'd be no mechanical connection, nothing to physically hold the connection in place other than the solder itself functioning as a metal "glue" which was not solder's intent. Under a short circuit condition sufficient heat could be focused at the solder connection to cause the solder to re-flow and the wire and connector could separate. This will not occur in a mechanically crimped connection which relies on the connector and wire which have substantially higher melting points than the solder.
Solder then Crimp will Crush the Solder - Drawback #3
There are those that will attempt to solder and then crimp for "doouble protection" but this is a bad idea on multiple fronts. The first being that the crimp may not form properly with the added mass from the solder in the connector being crimped. The crimp force could crack the solder causing a high electrical resistance point.
Crimp then Solder also Functionally Unnecessary - Drawback #4
There are others who will crimp the wire then remove some of the insulation from just beyond the connector and attempt to backfill with solder to "seal out" moisture and air from entering the stranding there. The issue is that the solder will not flow past the crimp so you'd in essence be putting a mass of solder into the stranded wire just outside the connection which again creates a solid mass as the focal point of vibration and would cause premature strand breakage or other fatigue related problems.
Yet others will drill a hole into the closed end of the connector and fill the small air void with solder. Well, the connection was already closed and sealed to start with and drilling a hole and then filling it with solder accomplishes no more than was already there before this is attempted.
Increased Resistance - Drawback #5
Lead is not as good a conductor as copper. The resistance of copper is 13 times less than lead so why introduce it into the circuit if not necessary? The crimp will be a copper connector and a copper wire and the crimp pressure with seal out air and moisture creating a low resistance connection
In all fairness let's take a look at possible drawbacks to a crimped connection:
Crimp Not Done Properly - Only Drawback
Simple. If you don't crimp properly using low quality tools or the wrong size connector and wire combination then you might have a problem. I fully believe this is where any popularity arose for solder since at a glance it would be easier to use solder as a glue to hold a connection and know it there over the "risk" of making a poor crimp connection such as those who "just hit it with a hammer". That's not really apples to apples, use good tools and follow manufacturer recommendations and you won't have a problem.
When a crimp is properly formed it will last indefinitely. Add to the crimp a piece of adhesive lined heat shrink tubing to cover and seal the joint where the wire meets the connector and you have a totally sealed connection.
So in review, just looking at the potential disadvantages I have yet to hear an argument that would move soldering ahead of crimping...heck, I haven't heard an argument than even makes them equal choices. Crimping is the way to go.
4x4junkie
Explorer
Ok good. You say those are unacceptable, and certainly I can agree with that since I have had many issues with such crimps. Perhaps it should be better emphasized then what type of crimp IS acceptable, instead of continued generalized statements that crimps are better when clearly these ones are not.
I'm still a little confused on the money part, since I think you (or someone) said in an earlier post a proper tool for these was about $150, which seems like would be a drop in the bucket for a large company such as Warn (I wouldn't think they'd want their good name to end up in the crapper when stupid crap like this burns up, out of warranty or not). I suppose this is a topic for a different thread though.
Ok... So now... How can we get down to the bottom of why soldered connections are bad?
I read the links you provided, Joe... ( :Wow1: at all the critical little details & requirements there)
On page 5 of your 1st link, I see nothing beyond a few same-ol' same-ol' comments I have heard before about soldering (comments about heat degradation, corrosion, and the wicking thing). But then it goes into some shpiel about soldering wires before crimping them... So I'm not sure if it is discussing reliability of pre-soldered, or post-soldered crimped connections...
Pre-soldering wires before crimping I agree is a VERY WRONG thing to do, and WILL lead to a fast failure! (something I've emphasized before, i think in another thread). Soldering on it's own (or post-soldering of a crimp) is where I'm failing to see the problem...
The melting point of copper is nearly 2000°F, so it is simply not going to be affected by heat of soldering (about 400-500°F). A properly soldered (fully fused) connection is also completely air & water-tight, so corrosion (moisture) has no way of entering into the connection (and any rosin flux left on the exterior of the connection is completely inert... Anyone who solders copper wiring with acid flux is either ignorant or stupid). Solder will oxidize if left in the weather, but that is what the heat-shrink tubing is for, right? (I already addressed the "wicking" thing).
What is more ironic though is that web page bashes on a whole bunch of cheap crimpers (not necessarily without good reason), then finishes out the article with a sales pitch for a very expensive crimper... Perhaps maybe there's a financial stake in there somewhere? It has me wondering if the purpose of picking these nits was so he can secure another buck in his pocket.
I like the part "if you really must solder"... He essentially says: go ahead and do it- here's how, "but I dont recommend it"/ "it really is unnecessary blah blah". My take from that is he knows soldering has a place, but doesn't want to say something that might result in one of his tools not selling.
I need to see a different article that is a little more convincing of this supposed problem before I can start to change my mind about it.
Edit,
Ok, toymaster brings two more items I think can be dispelled:
Solder does not provide a mechanical bond?
To that I ask how does copper plumbing in a home or business manage to stay together while operating at triple-digit PSI (or very close to it) with nothing more than solder holding the joints together? If solder didn't provide a good mechanical bond, wouldn't everything eventually just blow apart?
About the connector separating from heat during a short-circuit, why would this not be a GOOD thing?? Break the circuit before further fire, death, & destruction? (or better, how about just put a "fuse" (or OCPD, as another user here calls it) on the cable, what probably should always be there anyway?)
Lead is not as good of a conductor as copper?
Yes, this one is true (same goes for tin). Is it an issue? I don't think so... Especially if you have sized your terminal correctly for the wire you are using. Your link even acknowledges soldering is acceptable on battery lugs as long as there is sufficient insertion length (at least 1.5× the dia of the cable) so the article is actually in conflict with itself.
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The key here is that it does not provide a suitable mechanical bond for this application. It is a free country and you can do what you want but it is not how the professional do it. OCPD = over current protection device. And why would you purposefully construct such a weak link, uncontrollable and unreliable? A fuse or other OCPD is designed to open at a precise current at a precise time. Anything else is half-*** and jack leg.
The greater resistance was not the ONLY drawback or con stated, just one of many. Pros and cons, weights and balances, cost vs gain as it were. Yes you can use solder on a large connection however, if any one does such on one of my projects, or any other qualified engineer worth their salt, they will shortly be fired and not eligible for re-hire. Just saying, there are proper ways to do things and jack-leg ways. Sometimes jack-leg ways are acceptable such as in macguyverisms when a person is in a bind or stuck in the middle of Africa. Such things separate a craftsman from a backyard DIY'er.
optiononesolar
New member
High quality crimp terminals are a better choice as the funnel-shaped mouth prevents it from peeling back and provides complete connections.
Arclight
SAR guy
The wicking thing definitely happens if you try to solder welding cable, which has a gazillion fine strands. I stick to crimping when it's 10GA or bigger.
4x4junkie
Explorer
********
Yes I know what OCPD is.
That was my whole entire point of that... A fuse prevents a disaster like that from happening in the first place. Crimped connections change nothing whatsoever about how "half-аss" and "jack-leg" it is to not have current protection on your wiring. But I do find it funny how you somehow must think that solder simply holding a wire in place inside of a terminal lug is somehow more stressful on the mechanics of the soldered joint than 100 PSI of water pressure constantly trying to force apart a soldered joint lol.
I don't think I'd want to work for someone who has that kind of attitude anyway.
Well according to Joe917, Toymaster, and a few others here it must be "bad"... even though none of them have explained good enough WHY it is bad, so far it's just been generalized comments it's "unreliable", it's "not how a professional would do it", etc., a huge mountain made out of a molehill (the wicking thing), and things that are complete nonsense (the corrosion and heat degradation things).
It's funny (sad, really) in this day of prolific propagation & parroting of information over the internet, everything is now an "absolute" with no further insight given to the situation at hand (statements referencing what NASA or some other elite agency does further supports this, as if that somehow relates to what we do here). Something that isn't what was read on the internet as "the best way" is completely "wrong" or "half-assed", and judgement will be passed regardless of whether it works just as well or even better (obviously it works much better than the BS Warn puts on their winches, however apparently this is irrelevant to these folks).
The world is not going to end when someone decides to forgo the $150+ crimper tool and solder the lug onto their battery cable (something that IS perfectly acceptable in the marine industry too according to the page referenced by toymaster, though perhaps he still hasn't caught that part yet).
4x4junkie
Explorer
Umm, Excuse me??
I just try to look at it analytically... (obviously this is not something people do much anymore these days) When someone tells me something I've been doing for 30+ years without issue is suddenly wrong as if it's going to cause the world to stop, I try to look for any reasons why. So far all of the reasons presented here have either been a non-issue and/or they simply don't apply, so I'm merely pointing out my reasons why. You don't have to read them or heed them or do anything else with them, but if it makes someone else stop for even a moment and start those old rusty gears in their brain turning for just a moment about what might be best for the situation at hand (rather than "If NASA does it, you should too"), then that is all that really matters.
Cheers.
I just try to look at it analytically... (obviously this is not something people do much anymore these days) When someone tells me something I've been doing for 30+ years without issue is suddenly wrong as if it's going to cause the world to stop, I try to look for any reasons why. So far all of the reasons presented here have either been a non-issue and/or they simply don't apply, so I'm merely pointing out my reasons why. You don't have to read them or heed them or do anything else with them, but if it makes someone else stop for even a moment and start those old rusty gears in their brain turning for just a moment about what might be best for the situation at hand (rather than "If NASA does it, you should too"), then that is all that really matters.
Cheers.
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paranoid56
Adventurer
this guy sums it up quite nicly. i can dig up the aerospace reasons also if needed.
Soldering has with it some inherent drawbacks which are non-disputable. I'm not looking at a benefits comparison but strictly a drawback comparison.
Wicking - Drawback #1
With soldering the melted solder will flow into and between the strands traveling in both directions from the point of soldering. This effect is known as "wicking" and the solder is "wicked" up into the strands of the wire much as a traditional wick will soak up a liquid. The issue arises that the solder creates a solid mass from the stranded wires just outside the connector and creates a new focal point for vibration which can cause the solder to crack inside or crate fatigue on the individual strands facilitating their premature breakage.
No Mechanical Bond - Drawback #2
If a connection is solely soldered there'd be no mechanical connection, nothing to physically hold the connection in place other than the solder itself functioning as a metal "glue" which was not solder's intent. Under a short circuit condition sufficient heat could be focused at the solder connection to cause the solder to re-flow and the wire and connector could separate. This will not occur in a mechanically crimped connection which relies on the connector and wire which have substantially higher melting points than the solder.
Solder then Crimp will Crush the Solder - Drawback #3
There are those that will attempt to solder and then crimp for "doouble protection" but this is a bad idea on multiple fronts. The first being that the crimp may not form properly with the added mass from the solder in the connector being crimped. The crimp force could crack the solder causing a high electrical resistance point.
Crimp then Solder also Functionally Unnecessary - Drawback #4
There are others who will crimp the wire then remove some of the insulation from just beyond the connector and attempt to backfill with solder to "seal out" moisture and air from entering the stranding there. The issue is that the solder will not flow past the crimp so you'd in essence be putting a mass of solder into the stranded wire just outside the connection which again creates a solid mass as the focal point of vibration and would cause premature strand breakage or other fatigue related problems.
Yet others will drill a hole into the closed end of the connector and fill the small air void with solder. Well, the connection was already closed and sealed to start with and drilling a hole and then filling it with solder accomplishes no more than was already there before this is attempted.
Increased Resistance - Drawback #5
Lead is not as good a conductor as copper. The resistance of copper is 13 times less than lead so why introduce it into the circuit if not necessary? The crimp will be a copper connector and a copper wire and the crimp pressure with seal out air and moisture creating a low resistance connection
In all fairness let's take a look at possible drawbacks to a crimped connection:
Crimp Not Done Properly - Only Drawback
Simple. If you don't crimp properly using low quality tools or the wrong size connector and wire combination then you might have a problem. I fully believe this is where any popularity arose for solder since at a glance it would be easier to use solder as a glue to hold a connection and know it there over the "risk" of making a poor crimp connection such as those who "just hit it with a hammer". That's not really apples to apples, use good tools and follow manufacturer recommendations and you won't have a problem.
When a crimp is properly formed it will last indefinitely. Add to the crimp a piece of adhesive lined heat shrink tubing to cover and seal the joint where the wire meets the connector and you have a totally sealed connection.
So in review, just looking at the potential disadvantages I have yet to hear an argument that would move soldering ahead of crimping...heck, I haven't heard an argument than even makes them equal choices. Crimping is the way to go.
Soldering has with it some inherent drawbacks which are non-disputable. I'm not looking at a benefits comparison but strictly a drawback comparison.
Wicking - Drawback #1
With soldering the melted solder will flow into and between the strands traveling in both directions from the point of soldering. This effect is known as "wicking" and the solder is "wicked" up into the strands of the wire much as a traditional wick will soak up a liquid. The issue arises that the solder creates a solid mass from the stranded wires just outside the connector and creates a new focal point for vibration which can cause the solder to crack inside or crate fatigue on the individual strands facilitating their premature breakage.
No Mechanical Bond - Drawback #2
If a connection is solely soldered there'd be no mechanical connection, nothing to physically hold the connection in place other than the solder itself functioning as a metal "glue" which was not solder's intent. Under a short circuit condition sufficient heat could be focused at the solder connection to cause the solder to re-flow and the wire and connector could separate. This will not occur in a mechanically crimped connection which relies on the connector and wire which have substantially higher melting points than the solder.
Solder then Crimp will Crush the Solder - Drawback #3
There are those that will attempt to solder and then crimp for "doouble protection" but this is a bad idea on multiple fronts. The first being that the crimp may not form properly with the added mass from the solder in the connector being crimped. The crimp force could crack the solder causing a high electrical resistance point.
Crimp then Solder also Functionally Unnecessary - Drawback #4
There are others who will crimp the wire then remove some of the insulation from just beyond the connector and attempt to backfill with solder to "seal out" moisture and air from entering the stranding there. The issue is that the solder will not flow past the crimp so you'd in essence be putting a mass of solder into the stranded wire just outside the connection which again creates a solid mass as the focal point of vibration and would cause premature strand breakage or other fatigue related problems.
Yet others will drill a hole into the closed end of the connector and fill the small air void with solder. Well, the connection was already closed and sealed to start with and drilling a hole and then filling it with solder accomplishes no more than was already there before this is attempted.
Increased Resistance - Drawback #5
Lead is not as good a conductor as copper. The resistance of copper is 13 times less than lead so why introduce it into the circuit if not necessary? The crimp will be a copper connector and a copper wire and the crimp pressure with seal out air and moisture creating a low resistance connection
In all fairness let's take a look at possible drawbacks to a crimped connection:
Crimp Not Done Properly - Only Drawback
Simple. If you don't crimp properly using low quality tools or the wrong size connector and wire combination then you might have a problem. I fully believe this is where any popularity arose for solder since at a glance it would be easier to use solder as a glue to hold a connection and know it there over the "risk" of making a poor crimp connection such as those who "just hit it with a hammer". That's not really apples to apples, use good tools and follow manufacturer recommendations and you won't have a problem.
When a crimp is properly formed it will last indefinitely. Add to the crimp a piece of adhesive lined heat shrink tubing to cover and seal the joint where the wire meets the connector and you have a totally sealed connection.
So in review, just looking at the potential disadvantages I have yet to hear an argument that would move soldering ahead of crimping...heck, I haven't heard an argument than even makes them equal choices. Crimping is the way to go.
4x4junkie
Explorer
Arclight
SAR guy
Solder is handy for small-gauge wires. If you're trying to piece back together a car stereo harness that some previous owner butchered, solder and heatshrink will do a nice job of returning it to stock condition. There aren't a lot of options for joining a bunch of tiny wires in tight quarters.
verdesardog
Explorer
I used to work making wiring harnesses for aircraft. The large wires for the onboard ovens were soldered...00 gauge wire. Of course there are right and wrong ways to solder. Besides the aircraft wiring harnesses I made according to engineering spec's I was also NASA certified for micro miniature repair which included soldering everything from smd's to large multi 0 cable.
When soldering multi strand cable steps do need to be taken to prevent wicking of solder up the cable away from the connection. I must say that 99% of the aircraft wiring was crimped (with the proper crimper for each terminal).
When soldering multi strand cable steps do need to be taken to prevent wicking of solder up the cable away from the connection. I must say that 99% of the aircraft wiring was crimped (with the proper crimper for each terminal).
I soldered the 2/0 gauge welding cable, to the proper sized lugs, for my dual battery setup on my 08" Power Wagon. No issues. It's been 8 years. A hydraulic crimper for 2/0 gauge wire was uber expensive, when i did this in 2008. ($300-$500). I see HF & the river have them for around $50 now.
LOL NOTE: NASA has had many a failures. Crimp or solder related.....IHNI . Some resulting in deaths. I have had zero failures in any of my solder jobs my entire life. Just sayin'. My winch can draw 440 amps at full load. I have had it at full load, with no issues from my cables or the lugs I soldered on. I do have a 300 amp fuse in line & a 270 amp alternator (which also has a 2/0 welding cable in addition to the stock one, going to the battery). Is it the best, IDK. Does it work---yes & works well.
LOL NOTE: NASA has had many a failures. Crimp or solder related.....IHNI . Some resulting in deaths. I have had zero failures in any of my solder jobs my entire life. Just sayin'. My winch can draw 440 amps at full load. I have had it at full load, with no issues from my cables or the lugs I soldered on. I do have a 300 amp fuse in line & a 270 amp alternator (which also has a 2/0 welding cable in addition to the stock one, going to the battery). Is it the best, IDK. Does it work---yes & works well.
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