rruff
Explorer
I wonder about sway bars. For offroad performance you'll have better articulation without them, but they are better for cornering on road. Have you tried with vs without by any chance?
Heavy Tundras choice of suspension
- Thread starter jmllenos
- Start date
I wonder about sway bars. For offroad performance you'll have better articulation without them, but they are better for cornering on road. Have you tried with vs without by any chance?
nickw
Adventurer
They are more capable, what am I missing? I'd rather have 1800 lbs in a vehicle rated to handle 2000 by the manuf that 1800 in a vehicle rated to handle 1600. It has nothing to do with your 'opinion', it's what the engineers deemed appropriate for the vehicle. I get the sense you believe you've backwards engineering the vehicles in your head to know what they should or shouldn't be rated at.....
Regardless, 1/2 Ton or 3/4 Ton doesn't mean what it used to. There are 1/2 Tons that can't haul as much as my midsize Ranger, like a Raptor, even though it uses bigger drivetrain parts. Also a 3/4 Ton that can't Haul as much as other 1/2 Tons, like the Powerwagon, even though it has a true 3/4 Ton drivetrain. Get a vehicle rated for the weight regardless of armchair engineering.....
rruff
Explorer
Speaking of that... I have a 1986 Toyota pickup that is rated for the same payload as my Tundra. There is no way in hell these vehicles are equivalent in load carrying capacity! The Tundra weighs 2x as much has 3x the power, and everything on it is twice as big. With appropriate tire and suspension upgrades I'm sure it will carry 2x the load with the same safety and performance as the '86.
nickw
Adventurer
2wd 1-Ton?
Sure performance is not the same, nothing from that era was comparable.....and it was a different era with different standards (safety and ratings) and different acceptable ride characteristics. The 86' was also a much lighter vehicle, take 800 lbs of electronic crap, safety equipment, amenities out of a Tundra and you may have 3/4T payload. I'm also guessing you have SUBSTANTIALLY less towing capacity with the 86', aka you'd have to look at GCWR.
There is a relationship between vehicle weight and payload, but just because a vehicle weighs more doesn't mean it should haul more, that extra weight eats into it's payload....e.g., correct my numbers if they are way outta wack but I think they are close:
86' Toyota
Vehicle weight (2800-3000) + payload (2000) = 4800 - 5000
Tundra
Vehicle weight (5500) + payload (1700) = 7200
Tacoma
Vehicle weight (4200) + payload (1400) = 5600
You can see that an 86 maxed out is ~700 lbs less than a Tacoma and ~2300 lbs less than a Tundra.
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rruff
Explorer
2wd SR5 Xtracab auto. Both have ~1400lb payload.
The '86 handles, brakes, and accelerates like a pig with a load. The Tundra hardly notices it's there. The difference is massive. This is just to illustrate some of the silliness with payload ratings.
nickw
Adventurer
A 1-Ton Chevy Dually truck from the 80's won't handle, brake or accelerate like a new Tundra either.
Hummelator
Adventurer
Oh boy. I know all about overloading a Tundra. I used to run mine for work and would consistsntly be 400-600lbs over weight maxing out at 1000lbs over weight from time to time. While ( I feel) the truck can handle it, I made two upgrades. Air bags And better brakes.
It’s one thing to wear your truck out faster but to put other people in danger (see brakes) I see a whole different thing.
It’s one thing to wear your truck out faster but to put other people in danger (see brakes) I see a whole different thing.
Trikebubble
Adventurer
I prefer having them on with my truck and camper setup. Overall it just feels better. On my old Xterra, I removed them both and preferred the extra articulation. Funnily enough I just stripped one of the rear sway bar bolts and had to cut it off, so I'm running with out it right now. I can feel the added sway in the rear, and will be repairing and re installing it as soon as I can.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
olshaggy
Member
Looking for advice on a suspension upgrade to support a DIY camper build on my regular cab long bed 4WD 2016 Tundra SR with the 5.7L V8. I'm getting a 36" high ARE DCU installed in a few weeks (need the height to be able to sit up straight inside), and between the interior build, skid plates and sliders, passengers and cargo, I ultimately expect to get within a couple hundred pounds of the GVWR. Not planning to do any towing.
I expect to be living out of this truck for most of the year(s) ahead, mostly in the western US, but occasionally ranging up into Canada and Alaska, down through Mexico and perhaps beyond. Not planning to do rock crawling in this truck, but I do want it to hold up on rutted forest service roads, rocky desert tracks, gravel and washboard, so up as far as a 4 or maybe rarely a 5 on this 10 point trail rating system or a 3 Standard on this scale. I'm planning to add Total Chaos bed stiffeners to help manage the forces on the aluminum cap's double rear doors given the expected twist and flex of the truck's frame and bed rails, and I'm also having ARE build in some extra gussets in the cap frame (as they apparently do for search and rescue vehicles) but I know upgrading the suspension could be a big help too so I'm starting to research my options.
I currently have stock 18x8 wheels with Michelin LTX M/S2 P255/70R18 tires that still have most of their tread. I may eventually step up to LT tires, or at least an all-terrain P-rated set, but I want to stay close to stock size (probably not bigger than 33") and don't want to lift more than an inch or two because this thing will already have a fairly high center of gravity.
Just bought the truck about a month ago and it's got 164k miles on it. Maintenance records I got from the dealership show that the rear shocks were replaced a little over a year ago at 127k mi, but otherwise don't have any records of suspension service. It rides well now unloaded, and I know I'll get a much better sense of my needs once I add all this weight (and height), but want to start narrowing down the possibilities a bit. So far, I'm thinking about doing the Roadmaster Active Suspension to reduce rear bounce and improve stability, and adding a rear (and front?) TRD sway bar.
My sense is I want to stick close to a linear to progressive profile on pistons, but I know there are a lot of other variables, valving in particular. Bearing in mind that I need to keep the budget for suspension components in check to reserve funds for all the other aspects of the build, what else would ya'll suggest I prioritize?
I expect to be living out of this truck for most of the year(s) ahead, mostly in the western US, but occasionally ranging up into Canada and Alaska, down through Mexico and perhaps beyond. Not planning to do rock crawling in this truck, but I do want it to hold up on rutted forest service roads, rocky desert tracks, gravel and washboard, so up as far as a 4 or maybe rarely a 5 on this 10 point trail rating system or a 3 Standard on this scale. I'm planning to add Total Chaos bed stiffeners to help manage the forces on the aluminum cap's double rear doors given the expected twist and flex of the truck's frame and bed rails, and I'm also having ARE build in some extra gussets in the cap frame (as they apparently do for search and rescue vehicles) but I know upgrading the suspension could be a big help too so I'm starting to research my options.
I currently have stock 18x8 wheels with Michelin LTX M/S2 P255/70R18 tires that still have most of their tread. I may eventually step up to LT tires, or at least an all-terrain P-rated set, but I want to stay close to stock size (probably not bigger than 33") and don't want to lift more than an inch or two because this thing will already have a fairly high center of gravity.
Just bought the truck about a month ago and it's got 164k miles on it. Maintenance records I got from the dealership show that the rear shocks were replaced a little over a year ago at 127k mi, but otherwise don't have any records of suspension service. It rides well now unloaded, and I know I'll get a much better sense of my needs once I add all this weight (and height), but want to start narrowing down the possibilities a bit. So far, I'm thinking about doing the Roadmaster Active Suspension to reduce rear bounce and improve stability, and adding a rear (and front?) TRD sway bar.
My sense is I want to stick close to a linear to progressive profile on pistons, but I know there are a lot of other variables, valving in particular. Bearing in mind that I need to keep the budget for suspension components in check to reserve funds for all the other aspects of the build, what else would ya'll suggest I prioritize?
rruff
Explorer
Do you have an estimate of how much weight you'll be carrying and how much is on the roof of your DCU? You will not be top-heavy unless you plan to load a bunch of stuff on your cap. Think about the CG of your ~5600 lb truck, and then the weight and CG of what you are carrying. The CG height likely won't change much.
I put Ironman Foamcell Pro shocks on mine last spring, and it was an amazing improvement... way beyond what I expected. Much more planted and secure on bumpy roads. I even removed the front swaybar and handling is great. Good digressively-valved shocks improve handling a lot, as they are stiff in compression during low speed movement (like a sudden turning maneuver), but still respond well to higher speed movements like bumps.
Speaking of swaybars, they make frame twist more, as they prevent the suspension from articulating. IMO good shocks are the way to go for overlanding, not swaybars.
About tires... larger and wider ones will carry the load with less pressure, which is nice for ride... and larger diameter rolls over things easier. Ground clearance is also really important, and tires raise everything. If you get new tires I'd recommend at least 295/70r18 which are ~34.2". These will fit you stock rims and won't require a lift, and will fit in the wheelwells with zero or little modding. If you get new shocks, raise the front 1.5-2" anyway to give you a little more clearance. Big tires are expensive though...
I have 325/65r18 (35x13) Hankook ATMs with a 2" front lift and the mpg is at least as good as the stock street tires. Weird but... rolling resistance can vary a lot between brands and models.
I know there are lots of glowing reviews of RAS, but they look like a mess, and I wouldn't stick those on a truck that would be loaded all the time at any rate. I contacted Boise Spring Works about a year ago. They sell upgrade packs for a Tundra (overload and first leaf removed, and 4 new ones added) that are ~$500. Great reviews on Wander the West. Again, it depends on your weight. I'll probably be carrying ~1,500lb over stock on my rear axle and I'm thinking about a combo of airbags+cradles and 2 add-a-leafs (a short and a long). Airbags can be nice for adjustability but I wouldn't want to rely on them too much.
I don't think the bed stiffeners are going to help in your case... they appear to be designed for people who put a lot of stress into rear tiedowns or have heavy stuff mounted on the bed rails. The frame is going to twist just as much anyway. The stiffeners will resist the bed sides moving relative to the bed in the back. I think they will increase the stress on you cap rather than lower it... well, I guess it depends on whether twisting the cap or keeping everything square in the back is the bigger concern.
Found this... "TOTAL CHAOS Bed Stiffeners are designed to reinforce the rear channel where the tailgate mounts. The true function is to reinforce the tailgate opening and help prevent the spreading of this opening.
Extra weight on the bed rails will cause the bed to flex open and create a larger gap between tailgate and bedside. Eventually this can cause cracks at the bottom corner of the tailgate opening. Our Bed Stiffeners are designed to prevent this, but are NOT designed to help prevent cracking in other areas like the cross braces.
TOTAL CHAOS
WWW.CHAOSFAB.COM"
I put Ironman Foamcell Pro shocks on mine last spring, and it was an amazing improvement... way beyond what I expected. Much more planted and secure on bumpy roads. I even removed the front swaybar and handling is great. Good digressively-valved shocks improve handling a lot, as they are stiff in compression during low speed movement (like a sudden turning maneuver), but still respond well to higher speed movements like bumps.
Speaking of swaybars, they make frame twist more, as they prevent the suspension from articulating. IMO good shocks are the way to go for overlanding, not swaybars.
About tires... larger and wider ones will carry the load with less pressure, which is nice for ride... and larger diameter rolls over things easier. Ground clearance is also really important, and tires raise everything. If you get new tires I'd recommend at least 295/70r18 which are ~34.2". These will fit you stock rims and won't require a lift, and will fit in the wheelwells with zero or little modding. If you get new shocks, raise the front 1.5-2" anyway to give you a little more clearance. Big tires are expensive though...
I have 325/65r18 (35x13) Hankook ATMs with a 2" front lift and the mpg is at least as good as the stock street tires. Weird but... rolling resistance can vary a lot between brands and models.
I know there are lots of glowing reviews of RAS, but they look like a mess, and I wouldn't stick those on a truck that would be loaded all the time at any rate. I contacted Boise Spring Works about a year ago. They sell upgrade packs for a Tundra (overload and first leaf removed, and 4 new ones added) that are ~$500. Great reviews on Wander the West. Again, it depends on your weight. I'll probably be carrying ~1,500lb over stock on my rear axle and I'm thinking about a combo of airbags+cradles and 2 add-a-leafs (a short and a long). Airbags can be nice for adjustability but I wouldn't want to rely on them too much.
I don't think the bed stiffeners are going to help in your case... they appear to be designed for people who put a lot of stress into rear tiedowns or have heavy stuff mounted on the bed rails. The frame is going to twist just as much anyway. The stiffeners will resist the bed sides moving relative to the bed in the back. I think they will increase the stress on you cap rather than lower it... well, I guess it depends on whether twisting the cap or keeping everything square in the back is the bigger concern.
Found this... "TOTAL CHAOS Bed Stiffeners are designed to reinforce the rear channel where the tailgate mounts. The true function is to reinforce the tailgate opening and help prevent the spreading of this opening.
Extra weight on the bed rails will cause the bed to flex open and create a larger gap between tailgate and bedside. Eventually this can cause cracks at the bottom corner of the tailgate opening. Our Bed Stiffeners are designed to prevent this, but are NOT designed to help prevent cracking in other areas like the cross braces.
TOTAL CHAOS
WWW.CHAOSFAB.COM"
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Mickey Bitsko
Adventurer
Sadly, this will be ignored. ^
olshaggy
Member
I don't expect to carry much gear on the top of the cap @rruff. Will have a rack to allow me to toss a canoe or other bulky gear up there on occasion, but otherwise, I expect to install a vent fan, a solar panel, maybe an awning. I'll also have some interior storage that goes up toward the top but will mostly use it for the lightest stuff like clothing. Don't have a solid estimate of weights there or elsewhere in the build yet, but going to be working on that in the weeks ahead. Need to chew on the other portions of your response a while longer. Thanks for the detailed thoughts.
@Mickey Bitsko: Not sure if your comment is in response to my post, but to clarify, I plan to come in several hundred pounds under GVWR. I'm also not ruling out an upgrade to brakes or other impacted components. Happy to entertain suggestions.
@Mickey Bitsko: Not sure if your comment is in response to my post, but to clarify, I plan to come in several hundred pounds under GVWR. I'm also not ruling out an upgrade to brakes or other impacted components. Happy to entertain suggestions.
rruff
Explorer
Here is the Boise Spring Works page that shows their upgrade kit being installed on a Tundra. https://d3ciwvs59ifrt8.cloudfront.n...5604/846b6798-5dcd-463b-bcb5-5b57879e4f32.pdf
If you really are that light, you'll hardly notice the weight. You also won't need much boost at all to keep the rear end from sagging. If money is tight you may want to leave it stock until you get it loaded and try it out some.
Skidplates... I bought an aluminum RCI on BF sale... then I read all the reports of the aluminum ones breaking easily! Go with steel if you get one. Changing the oil with the stock plate is really annoying as you have to remove it. The RCI and most have aftermarket skidplates have a removable plate for accessing the filter, but it's still more work and mess than any vehicle I've owned...
If you really are that light, you'll hardly notice the weight. You also won't need much boost at all to keep the rear end from sagging. If money is tight you may want to leave it stock until you get it loaded and try it out some.
Skidplates... I bought an aluminum RCI on BF sale... then I read all the reports of the aluminum ones breaking easily! Go with steel if you get one. Changing the oil with the stock plate is really annoying as you have to remove it. The RCI and most have aftermarket skidplates have a removable plate for accessing the filter, but it's still more work and mess than any vehicle I've owned...
olshaggy
Member
I bought the RCI aluminum skids (engine, trans and transfer case, along with steel cat guards) on sale earlier this month ?. Hadn't read about issues with them breaking! I figured because I don't plan to do the kind of driving where I'll be intentionally sliding them over rocks so much as using them as protection from trail debris that gets flung around and the occasional misjudged line, it was better to save a little weight not have to worry about rust. We'll see ?♂️
Thanks for the Boise Spring Works link. Agreed that waiting to upgrade after I'm able to evaluate suspension needs on the fully loaded truck makes good sense. Still interested in learning more about my options in the meantime.
FWIW, I was advised to go with the bed stiffeners by Chris at Suburban Toppers, who as far as I can tell has more experience outfitting commercial aluminum caps for rough driving conditions than just about anyone out there. Got the same recommendation from another experienced ARE dealer later on and a few users here, and none of them had any financial incentive to steer me in that direction. The argument is that frame flex puts a lot of pressure on the tailgate (seen here on an F350), and so some stiffening up of those corners should at least partially mitigate the risk of damage to the much weaker aluminum framing around the rear double doors I'll be adding in its place. As you point out, they should also resist the bed sides spreading, which should help the cap to stay on top of those bed rails. Will the transfer of force elsewhere do more harm than good? I guess I'll find out, but the argument of the folks who've successfully used them for this purpose makes good sense to me.
Thanks for the Boise Spring Works link. Agreed that waiting to upgrade after I'm able to evaluate suspension needs on the fully loaded truck makes good sense. Still interested in learning more about my options in the meantime.