Help me choose an off road and expedition vehicle

[Nullifier]

I guess what I like about the plder Taco is the size. The double cab is plenty big for 4 adults. It's narrow width is easy to drive both around town and on the trails. The power and additional size of the '05 is handy if you pack alot of stuff but the added wieght means you'll have a harder working drive train, and more chance of breakage. Plus their is not a great availability of parts available. If your in east bumble you maight be screwed on geting parts to billy bobs garage ya know.

My though on an older 80/60 is that you can pick them up relatively inexpensive. Finding a 60 for under 10k is easy. Then you have say 15K to improve it. paint, interior, motor etc. By the time your done spending 15k it would be a very reliable rig and built the way you want it. either chevy motor or toyota. This direction however would onlybe recommended if you can do most of the work. Either yourself or being able to organize wrenchathons with other cruiser heads.

I really like the trooper for some reason I know scott can give you better feed back since he has/had one. I guess because the flat roof is lower for racks etc. I personally it rives better but that's my opinion which we all know about that! LOL!!!

Just go out and drive alot of vehicles. realy think about what is essential to your needs, not your hopes and dreams. I find more often then not most people are buying vehicles in this country to big for what they need. Hence the need for v-8 engines dana 60 axles etc. Now if you are building extreme vehicles these things are important, but a rig that is a daily driver is probably never going to see extreme duty since you have to drive to work on monday.

Make no mistake I want a double cab taco with 3.4 motor, But my regular cab 2.7 meets my needs. Plus it gets better mileage, is lighter which means less chance of breakage, and the shorter wheel base is better on tough trails. Now in 3 years when my wife and I are ready to start having kids. I will get a double cab with about 75-100k on it. Take all the stuff of my reg cab, move it over to the d-cab and sell the reg cab taco. This way I can keep all the suspension and stuff I have invested in. Economy of scale is lost on americans for the most part That's why you do not see the vehicles we drive in other countries and vice versa.

 

[bigreen505]

If your in east bumble you maight be screwed on geting parts to billy bobs garage ya know.

You know it wasn't that long ago that Moab was East Bumble. A friend of mine at the time had a Mazda pickup that broke down. The mechanic looked at it, scratched his head and said "Muzada, huh? I think mah dad saw one a them once."

My though on an older 80/60 is that you can pick them up relatively inexpensive. Finding a 60 for under 10k is easy. Then you have say 15K to improve it. paint, interior, motor etc. By the time your done spending 15k it would be a very reliable rig and built the way you want it. either chevy motor or toyota. This direction however would onlybe recommended if you can do most of the work.

That's a good thought and something I would like to do in a perfect world. The reality is that I don't have the time, skills or patience for it and I need a truck that can do double duty a daily driver/family hauler/expedition rig.

I would love to hear from Scott more about the Trooper. I'm a bit concerned about reliability, though you both seem to have enjoyed good luck with them. I know I need to go drive a bunch of vehicles, but I would really like to narrow it down first. Also, what a stock truck feels like driving around a city has little bearing on what it will be like with an ARB suspension blasting along some dirt road fully loaded at night -- you know the road where you are not exactly sure where you are coming from or where you are going, but you need to be home by noon and now it is 2 a.m.

Just go out and drive alot of vehicles. realy think about what is essential to your needs, not your hopes and dreams. I find more often then not most people are buying vehicles in this country to big for what they need. Hence the need for v-8 engines dana 60 axles etc. Now if you are building extreme vehicles these things are important, but a rig that is a daily driver is probably never going to see extreme duty since you have to drive to work on monday.

I think I have pretty well outlined my needs, but maybe I'm still trying to sort it all out in my head. My dad has a Suburban and that is just about the coolest highway gear hauler in existance, but I worry that even a 100 series Land Cruiser is too big for my driving skills on a shelf road.

So what do I want? Everything mentioned above and earlier, with a long enough cargo space to fit two bikes (that would be 64" from rear wheel to brake lever with fron wheels removed on the short one, the bike with the aero bars is a foot longer) inside, protected from the rail, hail, rocks and bugs or accomodate two adults, two kids and two dogs plus gear (trying to think long term here). The Tacoma and Frontier would be ideal if they were about six inches longer. An Xterra, 4Runner (2002 era), or Discovery with a roof basket could handle the task, though maybe not gracefully. A Trooper or Landcruiser could do it with one hand tied behind their backs, but have issues with hidden expenses, potential reliability issues, bad gas mileage or some combination of the above.

Make no mistake I want a double cab taco with 3.4 motor, But my regular cab 2.7 meets my needs. Plus it gets better mileage, is lighter which means less chance of breakage, and the shorter wheel base is better on tough trails. Now in 3 years when my wife and I are ready to start having kids. I will get a double cab with about 75-100k on it. Take all the stuff of my reg cab, move it over to the d-cab and sell the reg cab taco. This way I can keep all the suspension and stuff I have invested in. Economy of scale is lost on americans for the most part That's why you do not see the vehicles we drive in other countries and vice versa.

I understand what you are saying completely. However, where you want to be in three years is where I am now. I don't have a huge budget and my wife gets a say in this decision too since she will be spending a lot of time in it and money on it. There are no parts I can move from the Pathfinder besides my iPod, rack and hitch ball. I'm not trying to be rude in any way, just point out that as good as your plan sounds it really doesn't apply to me. Or if it does I have completely missed how. We probably won't have another kid for a few years, but I know from this time around that when kids come, both time and money become rare and valuable.

That is why I am trying to do this once and have a truck that will last me for the next several years. Is that where I am going wrong?

 

[datrupr]

You can not go wrong with the Trooper then. It is a great daily driver as mine is, Scott says that it actually performs better with the OME set up. I havew 107K on mine and it does not leak a drop af anything, and the only failure I have had was a starter failed on me in town. It has yet to let me down, they are cheap to buy, aftermarket is not great, but there is support and it is not all that expensive. The engine is quirky, but if you know how to deal with the quirks then you will not have any problem. JMO.

 

[bigreen505]

The engine is quirky, but if you know how to deal with the quirks then you will not have any problem. JMO.

I've heard that from a lot of people now. Care to elaborate on what the quirks are and work arounds for them?

Thanks!
Bill

 

[jeffryscott]

troopers ....

I too once had a Trooper. I put Old Man Emu shocks on it and better tires (265-75/16) and it was a great vehicle. Good off-road, good on the road. Reliable as anything out there.

The engine can burn a bit of oil (one quart every 1,000 miles) which is considered normal by Isuzu. Using a lighter oil, 5w30 Mobil 1, seemed to help.

since they aren't too common, parts could be an issue down the road, depending upon where you are.

Gas mileage was reasonable - about 15 in town, 17 or 18 on highway - and the 3.5liter engine was plenty powerful for me.

If I had kept it (traded straight across for a Land Rover Discovery) I probably would have added Old Man Emu springs and cranked the torsion bar up front for a bit more lift.

You can get supports for a roof rack and use the factory holes up top (still have a set somewhere I never installed) and that gets you into a variety of aftermarket racks or custom racks.

All in all, I put over 40K on mine in less than two years with no problems.

Good luck with the decision,

Jeff

 

[BajaTaco]

You have a tough bill to fill. I don't think you will quite get all of what you are looking for in one perfect vehicle:

• Carry multiple passengers, dogs
• Carry bikes and gear (bikes inside vehicle)
• short-mid wheelbase
• Good fuel economy (unless you consider less than 20 mpg good?)

My guess is that you will probably compromise first on the fuel economy, then the wheelbase, and lastly the passenger/cargo space. 25K is a tough price range to meet when considering adding modifications that can add up in a hurry (lockers, tires, armor, lift, etc). So that would almost have to dictate the purchase of a used vehicle if you didn't want to have payments to make. Like calamaridog said, people will pimp their own personal preferences, and I am no exception. For the sake of wanting to get the best chance for a reliable used vehicle that meets your specs, I would probably look at Toyotas first. Based on what you said though, the Tacoma is out, so that leaves the 4runner or Landcruiser/Lexus. The latter will definitely cost you more fuel but will otherwise probably be perfect for your needs. There are lots of other options too, but I would just stick with the Toyotas because that is what I already know. I'm not saying that you should though. The Isuzu and Nissan, or even a good full-size with a diesel might be cool, but I have no idea what the market is on those.

HOWEVER, I would do whatever I could to get into a new vehicle if possible. Quite frankly, I think all of the current offerings fall short in one way or another, but I would still like the advantage of a new vehicle if it were me. If I had to get a new vehicle now (based on your specs), and was trying to keep the price reasonable, I would look at the Tacoma d-cab 4x4 longbed. $25,615 base MSRP. Yea, the wheelbase is too long and it would be a heavy pig loaded up, but it fits the bill otherwise and would be pretty much ideal with a shell on the back. I would also consider the Xterra. The 4runner is too expensive for the budget. I also think the new FJ Cruiser is going to be a blast, but it might be too small for your specs. You would probably be able to carry the bikes, dogs, and 2 people, but not 3 or 4 people, plus dogs and bikes. The Jeep Rubicon Unlimited would be great, but also out of the budget.

 

[bigreen505]

You have a tough bill to fill. I don't think you will quite get all of what you are looking for in one perfect vehicle:

• Carry multiple passengers, dogs
• Carry bikes and gear (bikes inside vehicle)
• short-mid wheelbase
• Good fuel economy (unless you consider less than 20 mpg good?)

Bikes only get carried with two people. As for the fuel economy, you drive a truck long enough it warps your perception and expectations. If actually get 20 mpg on a tank I'm extatic! I know it is a tough bill to fill, that is why I am asking everyone for suggestions. Also, I refuse to accept that I am the only looking for this.

Based on what you said though, the Tacoma is out ...

Yeah that really bums me out, I just needed a few more inches of bed length.

, so that leaves the 4runner or Landcruiser/Lexus. The latter will definitely cost you more fuel but will otherwise probably be perfect for your needs.

They do seem to be on the short list, particularly a 2002 4Runner if I can find one. I feel a bit like Goldilocks "this one is too big, that one is too small." The 100 series Land Cruisers seem too big, like I said, I'm not sure that I have the skills to drive something that large off road.

HOWEVER, I would do whatever I could to get into a new vehicle if possible. Quite frankly, I think all of the current offerings fall short in one way or another ...

Maybe I should check out the Jeep. I could make one happed, but it would definitely be tight. Maybe you are right about going new, especially since I plan on keeping it for a while, which would probably lead me back to the Xterra.

One problem I have with Nissan is they don't seem to learn from their mistakes. The alternator and starter still sit below the engine which means as soon as the truck hits water (or very dense and deep snow) they get soaked, not a good thing.

Again, thanks to all of you for your input.

 

[calamaridog]

BigG,

I like the UZJ100 because it is a very nice used vehicle for the money. My truck cost $55,000 new in 2000. I bought it in 2005 for $22,000. The value on these things goes down more than on a Tacoma or 4runner for example.

With 80,000 mi. this was a much nicer vehicle than any new car or truck my wife and I have ever had. Comparing used to brand new, this Land Cruiser is better than say a "new" Jeep (which we also have).

There are compromises sure. Did I need heated leather seats? No, but I love the bun toasters now:sunny: Some of the stuff is "fluff" but its not breaking so whatever.

This thing is big and heavy. It gets crappy mileage. It has a V8. It wheels ok, the length is not so bad and the turning radius is good for a larger SUV. It is wider than I'm used to but not much more wide than a Tacoma.

Tons of room for all your stuff. No question about that.

Safety? For the family, etc. this is a very safe vehicle to drive around in. I'm not worried about my family when we drive down the street. Basic off road armour, suspension, etc. and this thing is a real tank.

You can fit the car seat in the middle row center position and 2 adults can sit comfortably next to the car seat. This was not possible in a Tacoma, which is what drove me away from the Tacoma.

Anyways, give one a drive and see what you think. My friend just bought a 1999 UZJ100 with 80,000 mi. for $18,000. The other vehicle he looked at was a 2003 4 door Tacoma 4x4 with 70,000 mi. Guess how much they wanted for that one? $18,000. Similar mileage vehicles but which one is a better used car value?


I don't want to discourage you from driving several different makes and models before you decide. The more research, etc. you do the better your decision should be.

I'm not sure what part of the country you are in, but I recommend buying a used car from a rust free state. It is worth traveling for buy a rust free vehicle in CA or AZ for example.

 

[BajaTaco]

Yeah that really bums me out, I just needed a few more inches of bed length.

I'm going to go out on a limb here... but, I have seen lots of "bobbed" Tacoma beds. Why not an "extended" bed? You would need to know someone good at welding to make it an affordable project, but I think it is do-able. You could incorporate a custom rear bumper at the same time and make the back of the frame nice and strong, and accomodate a stretched d-cab bed. It would make for a crappy departure angle, but it might be a do-able compromise. OR - like I said, the new d-cabs are available with a regular bed length.

Maybe you are right about going new

Yep, with a 25K budget, I think it's a good idea, even if you have to finance some of it. You will end up with a vehicle that has it's entire life-span ahead of you, not just a fraction of it.

 

[goodtimes]

Forget little trucks, go big. $9000 will get you a second generation dodge (3/4 ton 4x4 turbo diesel) that is just barely getting broken in, leaving you $16K to mod it out with. Life expectancy with the cummins is upwards of 300K. Fuel milage is around 20mpg. GVWR is 8800 pounds, GCVWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating) is over 20K pounds. Dana 60 front axle, dana 70 or 80 rear axle (giving you huge wheel bearings that will take a ton of abuse on rough roads). $500 worth of engine modification will get you 350 hp/600 ft-lbs of torque (while maintianing that 20 mpg). 36 gallon tank (700 mile range!). 65 gallon tanks are available that fit in the factory location (1300 miles!)

The only downside is that maintenance is more expensive. For example, each oil change will cost you $30 worth of oil (although the change interval is 6500 miles, making it a little better).

 

[datrupr]

I've heard that from a lot of people now. Care to elaborate on what the quirks are and work arounds for them?

The primary one Jeff already mentioned. The 3.5L engine has a tendancy too use a bit more than normal oil. I go through a quart of of 10w30 oil about every 4 tanks of gas, which relates to about 1000-1200 miles. A little more often when I do more highway driving and towing. Just check the oil every fill up and you will have no problems. On the late production run of the '01's and '02's Isuzu corrected this design flaw and they use much less oil. They also put a very substandard Intake Manifold Gasket on the engine from the factory and if it has not been replaced it will go out on you. It will cost about $400.00 to have a shop do it for you, but if you are only slightly mechanically inclined you can change it yourself for pretty much the cost of the gasket $35 - $75 and a couple of hours of your time. It is also very particular on what spark plugs it will happily accept, do not go with the fancy double platinum dual tip jobs, they will trigger a misfire code and make the engine run like crap. I comes from the factory with Champions, and that is what I put in mine, I think it cost $9.00 and 30 minutes to do a tune up on my truck a couple of months ago.Like I said, with 107K on the clock on mine it has been great and does not leak a drop of anything and the only squeeks or rattles come from the ambulance doors, and then only on a fairly rough road. However, because they are no longer being produced, parts can be a bit on the pricey side ($325 for an OEM Denso starter), but I have not run into any issues regarding parts availability, there were plenty of Troopers produced and a ton of them on the road still. They are very solid and very capable trucks. I like the rest however am a bit biased and I love my truck. Just thought I would fill you in since you asked. Good luck on your search.

 

[datrupr]

can get supports for a roof rack and use the factory holes up top (still have a set somewhere I never installed) and that gets you into a variety of aftermarket racks or custom racks.Jeff

Jeff, you still have these support? What do you want for them? I have a nice Cobra hand held radio I can trade you for them:hehe: Seriously, I am interested if you are looking to get rid of them, let me know or PM me.


Hi Jack over, continue on with your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

[BajaTaco]

The Isuzu and Nissan, or even a good full-size with a diesel might be cool, but I have no idea what the market is on those.

Thanks GT, you enlightened me on the cost - not bad!

 

[bigreen505]

Okay everyone, only two remain. Thanks to all for your help.

Three options are left standing:
1. New Xterra with automatic
2. New Xterra with manual
3. 2002 Toyota 4Runner with 30k miles.

The manual Xterra is $23k, the auto is $500 more and the 4Runner is $500 more at about $24k. I am torn between the auto and manual Xterra as I like them both. The 5-speed auto was very smooth and quick to shift and the manual could limp forward on flat ground at 500 rpm with no problem.

Xterra Pros:
Power -- out the yin yang!
Removable rear seat
Price
New car with full warranty
Feels tight and solid
Quiet
Good seats
Cargo space for tall things (can easily fit two bikes, probably two bikes while two people sit in the back)


Cons:
Handling -- my Pathfinder can take a street corner 10 mph faster than the X!
Questionable build quality and reliability based low scores for Titan, Armada and to a lesser degree, Frontier
Comparatively low quality of materials
Build quality not up to par with Toyota
Height -- why is the truck so tall?
Roof rack -- is that thing realy useful? Seems like the Calmini replacement would be much better


4Runner Pros:
Quality
Toyota certified with a 7 year/100,000 mile powertrain warranty
Resale vaule (not that I plan to sell in the next several years)
Cargo space (15 cubic feet more)
Visibility -- very impressive
My Thule rack will fit on the 4Runner -- this allows me to carry 10 pairs of skis on the roof if I have to (ski racing family, don't ask) and/or 2 bikes.


Toyota Cons:
Power. Adaquate, but nothing more, seems to be on par with my Pathfinder.
Seats. I drove a base model or SR5 (not sure) with a bunch of miles and not well cared for, the one I'm looking at buying is a Limited -- are they different?
Spending pretty much the whole budget on the vehicle, most mods would have to wait (I would get Slee rocker gards now because they are cheaper than body damage).


Neutral:
The Toyota has a wide selection of after market parts
Nissan will have bumpers, skids and 3" and 5" lifts available in a month or couple, lockers coming by June.
Xterra has smaller, but possibly more useful cargo space.
The engine bay of the Xterra seem very tight. Hard to work on, but keeps the front end compact.
If you are not familiar with Darren Kilgore's Web site, http://www.mycolorado.org you should check it out. Darren is a fellow photographer with a beautiful 4Runner. If I get the Toyota his setup would be my ultimate goal, but would probably take a few years to get there.

If anyone can think of anything else please let me know. I need to come to some sort of decision by late tomorrow morning. You have all been so helpful and I am very appreciative of your time. So, bring it on!

Thanks,
Bill

 

[jeffryscott]

toyota ...

If it were me, given the above info I'd go Toyota. You still have a long warranty and at 30K it is still just a baby.

Good luck,

Jeff