I don’t disagree. But, it is just that - a spacer kit with lower end shocks. You can run 37’s with Thuren/Carli, but you are gonna pay more. But, you will also get a much better ride. That’s why I suggest eveyone should do their homework and see what they need and what works for their budget. This forum is an excellent resource for that.
HELP! Power wagon or Cummins?
- Thread starter Sempertoy
- Start date
I don’t disagree. But, it is just that - a spacer kit with lower end shocks. You can run 37’s with Thuren/Carli, but you are gonna pay more. But, you will also get a much better ride. That’s why I suggest eveyone should do their homework and see what they need and what works for their budget. This forum is an excellent resource for that.
It is in fact a spacer kit, but I do think it's worth pointing out that it's not your average spacer kit. In fact, I can't think of any other spacer kit for the Ram HD that goes to the same lengths as AEV to ensure driveline geometry and stock driving characteristics are maintained (as much as possible).
The shocks are fairly standard Bilstiens's (supposedly tuned specifically for AEV's setup) and the stock springs are left in place. So yeah, the ride isn't going to feel as good as it does with Carli's or Thuren's stuff, but maybe it will be capable of handling OEM payload/towing ratings for a longer duration. I don't know for sure, but I do acknowledge that AEV's focus (OEM-like handling and capabilities) was a bit different from the focus of Carli and Thuren (improved ride quality in rough terrain).
Look at factory-produced go-fast 4x4's: The Raptor is a prime example. It's got a trick suspension which allows it to fly over the rough stuff, but its payload is severely handicapped (relative to other 1/2 tons). If you want better offroad ride quality, you'll have to sacrifice some payload/towing capability, and vice versa if you want better payload/towing capabilities. I don't think either setup (Carli/Thuren vs AEV) is better; you just have to figure out what your priorities are.
Last edited:
Ducky's Dad
Explorer
SemperToy's original post does not make it clear that he needs the capabilities of a PW. No mention of serious off road stuff, crawling, mud, etc. But that does not rule out the PW. I have a PW and it is the best truck I have ever owned, so there's my bias. OP can do the diesel maintenance himself, so that will save a pile of money. He's planning some long trips, so points to the diesel for fuel economy and range. But will the fuel savings offset the initial cost diff between a PW and a Cummins, assuming he adds PW capability to the Cummins? Probably not, but maybe. Heavy trailer or big boat, go for the diesel, but I don't see that need in the post. Cabover camper or pop top camper, PW is fine. A PW with a 6.4 will haul an awful lot of stuff, and do it quietly and comfortably. The PW's reduced payload and tow ratings are a direct result of the suspension tuning for offroad and flex, but the ratings are still substantial. My PW has leaf springs in the rear and I added Carli Hemi spring packs plus Thuren shocks and Firestone airbags, so plenty of capability without straining the PW, and it still rides and handles better than my Tundra CrewMax. A Cummins is HEAVY, and that makes it less suitable for offroad use, despite what the diesel bros will claim. That is one reason Dodge did not build the PW with a diesel, because they planned to sell them to the Forest Service, fire departments, cops, fish and game, etc., and those guys don't want a truck that sinks the front end every time they get into the muck. In the PW's favor, if you try to add PW capability to any normal truck, you'll spend far more than the cost of the PW option on a 2500. So my take is that the PW is the way to go if you think you'll need what the PW delivers. If you just want a truck, there is nothing wrong with a Cummins, but it's gonna cost you and it will never do PW stuff as well as a PW. And a PW will never do diesel stuff as well a Cummins, but it comes close enough.
Forgot the required rant on AEV: their stuff is cool and pretty and all that, but is grossly overpriced and seems intended for sale to posers. If you go to the PW Forum, there is a lot of discussion about AEV's product, pricing, market strategy, flaws, etc. Their stuff is cool but does not seem to be as functional as the stuff from Carli and Thuren. I have dealt with and have products from both Carli and Thuren on my PW and think highly of both. No direct experience with AEV.
Forgot the required rant on AEV: their stuff is cool and pretty and all that, but is grossly overpriced and seems intended for sale to posers. If you go to the PW Forum, there is a lot of discussion about AEV's product, pricing, market strategy, flaws, etc. Their stuff is cool but does not seem to be as functional as the stuff from Carli and Thuren. I have dealt with and have products from both Carli and Thuren on my PW and think highly of both. No direct experience with AEV.
Last edited:
The issue of weight always seems to come up whenever the 6.4L Hemi PW is compared to the 6.7L Cummins 2500/3500. Yes, its true that the Cummins Ram is significantly heavier than the Hemi version (by about 1k lbs), but Hemi Ram is still a 6.6k lb truck (in base trim with no options)...that's not exactly a nimble, light footprint by comparison.
If we're talking crawling through double-diamond rock trails or ripping through mud holes, I guess I could see the benefit of being 1k lbs lighter, though to be honest the 6.4l Hemi Ram still wouldn't be preferred for such duties when compared to smaller 4x4's. But that kind of technical driving comprises only a tiny fraction of what most overlanders experience with their rigs...some don't even deal with those kinds of conditions at all as they're exploring mostly logging and forest service roads. For the type of driving that 99% of overlanders are doing with their rigs, I just don't see the added weight of the 3/4 ton diesel being a big deal. Of all the forest roads I've driven through in the northeast, I can think of only 2 minor trails that probably wouldn't have allowed a 3/4 ton diesel to get through (and there were viable bypasses for both).
Overlanders have been pushing the LC 70's and LC 200's with its 4.5l v8 diesel through all kinds of horrible terrain with good success despite that engine being hefty as well: ~750lbs all up front. Good tire selection with the proper inflation coupled with a good suspension will help mitigate some of the weight issue. Unless the OP is doing a run of the Rubicon every other month, I don't think the weight difference will be much a hindrance.
If we're talking crawling through double-diamond rock trails or ripping through mud holes, I guess I could see the benefit of being 1k lbs lighter, though to be honest the 6.4l Hemi Ram still wouldn't be preferred for such duties when compared to smaller 4x4's. But that kind of technical driving comprises only a tiny fraction of what most overlanders experience with their rigs...some don't even deal with those kinds of conditions at all as they're exploring mostly logging and forest service roads. For the type of driving that 99% of overlanders are doing with their rigs, I just don't see the added weight of the 3/4 ton diesel being a big deal. Of all the forest roads I've driven through in the northeast, I can think of only 2 minor trails that probably wouldn't have allowed a 3/4 ton diesel to get through (and there were viable bypasses for both).
Overlanders have been pushing the LC 70's and LC 200's with its 4.5l v8 diesel through all kinds of horrible terrain with good success despite that engine being hefty as well: ~750lbs all up front. Good tire selection with the proper inflation coupled with a good suspension will help mitigate some of the weight issue. Unless the OP is doing a run of the Rubicon every other month, I don't think the weight difference will be much a hindrance.
Scoutpappa
New member
I bought a 2017 PW to allow for more room than my 1979 Scout II when we hit the trails. Next thing I knew my wife decided we needed a travel trailer (37' triple slide) as opposed to our trusty pop up. The only thing I can say is that set up correctly, the PW handles everything I throw at it. If I had thought we were going to buy the huge TT then I might have gone diesel but all things considered I still prefer the offroad capability. You really have to want to go hardcore offroad to justify the PW, but as I own one I can say I still prefer the capability built in vs a diesel. My own opinion.
chet6.7
Explorer
Are you getting a long bed or a short bed? If you go diesel, there are more options for larger aftermarket replacement fuel tanks(Transfer Flow,Titan) with a long bed.Titan makes a tank that goes in the spare tire's location.The position of the DEF tank is a factor,Ford or GM seem to have more options in tanks,at least they did the last time I looked.When I was looking at Torklift chassis mounted battery boxes there was one for the long bed,but not for my CCSB. Is the Aisin trans available in a gasser? With a family your size,I would go 3500 long bed,maybe a megacab, but you don't get a full size bed with it.Those kids will only get bigger and they will want to take more stuff as they age.
Diesel or gas? Gas is probably more trouble free as the emissions package is sorted out as it is older.There are some people that have had a countdown warning on the diesels,it gives I think 100 miles before it goes into limp mode.Some of those warning have turned out to be false and they were able to keep driving.You can research that on Cummins forum. I am leaving soon for a trip,I bought DEF several days ago as I like to put it in and see if there are any problems.I forgot until today,one of the things I do is put in 1 gal. as I don't go through the stuff like some and the hot summer degrades it.Apparently the truck does a DEF quality test when 2 or more gallons are added,that is another reason I only add 1 gal. With that amount,no test and the DEF is never that old,at least that is my thinking.There are some that have never had any DEF problems,but I want to minimize difficulties when doing interstate travel.My 14 has has many recalls,I would avoid that year,I don't know about other years or makes.I routinely drive over a 7% grade my previous truck, a gas V10, went over it well,the Cummins does it even better.I turn the music off and listen to the motor, it's a joy to the ears at 2K@ 70 mph.
Diesel or gas? Gas is probably more trouble free as the emissions package is sorted out as it is older.There are some people that have had a countdown warning on the diesels,it gives I think 100 miles before it goes into limp mode.Some of those warning have turned out to be false and they were able to keep driving.You can research that on Cummins forum. I am leaving soon for a trip,I bought DEF several days ago as I like to put it in and see if there are any problems.I forgot until today,one of the things I do is put in 1 gal. as I don't go through the stuff like some and the hot summer degrades it.Apparently the truck does a DEF quality test when 2 or more gallons are added,that is another reason I only add 1 gal. With that amount,no test and the DEF is never that old,at least that is my thinking.There are some that have never had any DEF problems,but I want to minimize difficulties when doing interstate travel.My 14 has has many recalls,I would avoid that year,I don't know about other years or makes.I routinely drive over a 7% grade my previous truck, a gas V10, went over it well,the Cummins does it even better.I turn the music off and listen to the motor, it's a joy to the ears at 2K@ 70 mph.
Buliwyf
Viking with a Hammer
That's a choice everyone has to make on their own. In slippery dirt road conditions with cold mud and ice, weight is a substantial hindrance. But in the dry, there's little difference.
Some of us sight see in the fall and winter as well, not just summertime desert conditions.
The gap between a similar mildly equipped f150 and gas 250, is about the same as the gap in performance between a gas 250 and a diesel 350.
Not my vid, but some of my friends LIVE on roads like these:
These Oz guys sure could use some tire chains.
Our campgrounds turn from a harmless flat grass meadow to a Truck Claws demo vid in just a days worth of rainfall. Tent sites are by the river, and our rides park in a soft grass field.
Note the perfect grass part of the vid:
Diesels will break through that hard layer of grass first, then the gas 250, then the 150, and a jeep will just float on by.
Last edited:
That first video is from Australia. Is the OP looking to take his vehicle to Australia?
For overlanding in North America, most of the accessible roads are old, or active, forest service roads. Most of those roads are more than capable of handling a diesel 3/4 ton. If you're worried about mud or snow, buying the appropriate tires and running them at the appropriate pressure will go a long way towards alleviating that fear.
I understand the implications of the weight difference between the gasoline 3/4 ton and diesel 3/4 ton in theory; in reality, I've yet to see a legally and publicly accessible 4wd road the gasser could get through but the diesel couldn't (I'm talking public roads, not private 4x4 parks). The weight difference between the two exists; the question is: what's the likelihood of encountering an area where that weight difference realistically matters?
Ducky's Dad
Explorer
The weight difference between the two exists; the question is: what's the likelihood of encountering an area where that weight difference realistically matters?
It matters a lot if you get off road in the desert. Weight is your enemy in silty sand.
It matters a lot if you get off road in the desert. Weight is your enemy in silty sand.
blackdmax15
Observer
So I just went through this dilemma six months ago. Additional positive things to add to a diesel is as follows: 1) Diesel fuel is less volatile than gas in the event of a spill or wreck. 2) idling off road for significant amount of time in hot temps is not a problem for diesels (don’t want to hear about perceived regen cycle BS). 3) if one wants more power the only choice is supercharging which will negate the money you saved not getting a diesel.
Don’t get me wrong I still want a power wagon. But I feel for 5-8k less than a PW I got a 930lb/ft of torque monster that doesn’t even know 37s are on it and puts a smile on my face every time I hear the turbo start spooling up. For all of the mods I did to a diesel I was going to do to the PW, and the money I saved over getting the diesel I can just add lockers for 5k and figure out a winch solution for the rear or just buy an aftermarket bumper to get equivalent off-road goodies. The heavy diesel will never be a PW, but it’s f-ing sweet.
Don’t get me wrong I still want a power wagon. But I feel for 5-8k less than a PW I got a 930lb/ft of torque monster that doesn’t even know 37s are on it and puts a smile on my face every time I hear the turbo start spooling up. For all of the mods I did to a diesel I was going to do to the PW, and the money I saved over getting the diesel I can just add lockers for 5k and figure out a winch solution for the rear or just buy an aftermarket bumper to get equivalent off-road goodies. The heavy diesel will never be a PW, but it’s f-ing sweet.
Buliwyf
Viking with a Hammer
It doesn't matter that, that vid was in Australia. It was an example of the muddy roads I drive on every weekend. Did you think I was from Oz? Did you think that there's no mud over here?
-Wet grassy fields
-silty and slick river crossings
-soft beaches (not that packed down Daytona cake)
-hunting in the winter
-flooded roads, flooded park roads
-ice and snow on any uphill
-tight turns in deep snow with a heavy crusty icy top layer.
Once you sink in, and start dragging your front diff, it's over. Trucks with too much weight on their nose sink in and get stuck first. If off road use is a must, but towing BIG isn't, go gas. Save 1000# on your front axle. We see this all the time. Big trucks struggling, F150's coasting right on by. It's one of the reasons why I'm not adding a 300# front bumper and 100+# winch to the nose of my truck.
If you're stuck deciding between gas SUV's and a PW, thinking about a diesel is a major mistake. Unless you plan on towing 2 jeeps and hauling a camper, in the future?
Last edited:
If you're looking to use a truck bed camper, you probably want to build your own Power Wagon (choose diesel or gas, whichever you prefer). the Power Wagon in stock form is very low on payload and won't be sufficient for a truck bed camper, at least not without significant upgrades. As a former Ram 2500 owner, I can also say the coils in the 3/4 ton rams are not ideal for heavy, high center of gravity loads. There's just too much sway to them IMO. They can be made to work but it isn't ideal.
I agree.
I guess my point is: if you're traveling on an actual road (which North American overlanders are for the most part), tire selection and tire pressure will be more relevant than the weight difference between a diesel and gasoline 3/4 ton.
If we were talking about Australia, where there are thousands of miles of dirt tracks, lacking in any sort of foundation, and are vast amounts of sandy coast line open to motorized access, I'd be more worried about that weight difference. But we're not talking about Australia. Most of the major overlanding routes in North America comprise of gravel/dirt roads which are well capable of handling a 3/4 ton's weight.
If you're worried about getting stuck in a wet, muddy field or getting bugged down in deep sand, I wouldn't get a diesel 3/4 ton, or a gasoline variant either. I'd get a small jeep or, better yet, an ATV.
Last edited:
Tex68w
Beach Bum
I am struggling with this myself. The payload on the PW blows for a FWC, sure it's still within its capabilities, but the roll and reduced stability will most likely be magnified on that platform with its use. I think an airbag system is in order should you choose to run a 1000lb+ system in a PW. Another thing to consider with the gasser is fuel efficiency with such a load and the drag it creates especially if you're running 35" or larger tires. With my 37's I can't see getting any better than 10mpg with a FWC in the back and while some might think that's acceptable, it surely puts a dent in your range and fuel expenses.
I think what most of us have to ask ourselves is how dedicated is your rig/build going to be? Are you ok with running around full-time with a AT Habitat or GFC in the bed and can you accept the reduced visibility, payload, and fuel economy that come with those setups, or do you plan to only run those options when you need them? Is this truck for weekend/camping/hunting/adventure travel only or does it double as your daily driver and family rig as well? I know first hand after this past weekend that I saw a 3-4mpg drop in my PW with the AT Habitat on and in less than ideal weather conditions (winds 20-30mph+). This is ok if I only see that for the times that I need the system for trips, but I wouldn't want to live with that on a daily basis, nor would I want to mount/dismount the Habitat multiple times a year.
I think in the OP's situation he first needs to identify his needs in a truck and then he can pick the payload and power plant accordingly. From what he has mentioned so far I can't see how the diesel would be a better choice unless he's ok with the added expense for the occasional boost in performance.
Ducky's Dad
Explorer
PWs with campers. They are not diesels, because they don't need to be diesels.
Pull a travel trailer with a PW? No problem.
Pull a load with a PW? OK.
Climb a wall with your bone stock PW? Yeah, you can do that, too.
Pull a travel trailer with a PW? No problem.
Pull a load with a PW? OK.
Climb a wall with your bone stock PW? Yeah, you can do that, too.