Horizon Trailer COPYCAT

wagner_joe

Adventurer
I believe the following quote hits it dead on. AT can decide the patent infrigements if they so choose, that's a legal issue that this peanut gallery can't decide. Plus we're all biased so we couldn't be on the jury selection.

The concerns would/should be
a) what is the new company called? I couldn't find any marketing material..
b) what type of liscensing/taxes/corporation/insurance setup is it...
c) don't knock someone's price points if you're not on the same level playing field..(Bob's comment's on the FJ forum)

I believe AT is known for their integrity. They have competiton and they do welcome it as they've stated before in many posts. Just compete on the same playing field. Which hopefully if Bob is serious he'll offer through as a business. That's the fun part about capitalism..

There are internet rumors about him, but I do not bash people I don't know.

One can gain interest for a product that they build for themselves, where fair competion comes from whether it be a hardware store or a trailer builder is how is it done. So I'm not knocking AT or Bob. Both have been started in garages of peoples homes.. What people need to look at is the details behind the company before they order..

If anyone ever wants a Horizon or a Chaser I'd be happy to bring one to show off... MY horizon's here in Phoenix and I'm happy to take it anywhere in the valley. It's one of those proud papa purchase. Just PM me for time/place/etc...

enough said.. I like to look at peoples thoughts and ideas...:D



sinuhexavier said:
Good competition keeps you honest.
Honest competition keeps you good.

-Phil and Steve Mahre
 

ckkone

Explorer
These type of trailers with RTT's are so yesterday..... Good luck to the guy, but something a little more cutting edge would have been nice....
 

elcoyote

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0004
Having read the posts here we feel it is important to separate some facts from conjecture and opinion. We will preface this by saying that we believe that honest competition is good and that a rising tide raises all ships. We know that trailers are becoming more popular and sought after in the overland expedition community, in part due to our efforts our the past seven years. It is only natural that others will start to serve the market. We also are always willing to help out persons who have decided to build their own trailer for their own use as we are sure many members here would attest to.

Facts:
· In March Robert W. Brown made an appointment to visit AT under the guises that he was a potential customer. He was afforded the customary AT hospitality and spent the better part of 2 hours closely examining our product line and production facility.
· On 3/26/08 unbeknownst to us, Bob, a.k.a. “skersfan” made the following statement on the fjcruisers forum: “I just spent some time at Adventure Trailers. There stuff is very good, no question, but way way way way way over priced.
I have spent the morning figuring out how to do the same trailer and have a good idea. And the cost of the trailer would be less than half of what they are asking.”
· On 4/22/08 Bob purchased a Lock and Roll coupler from AT.
· On 5/21/08 Bob posts a set of dimensions for his trailer that are nearly identical to that of our Horizon: “102 inches long, 70 inches wide. Main box 48 long, 40 wide, and 32 tall. Two side boxes at 15x15x48 and a front jet ski box, Independent suspension 22 inches of ground clearance with 35 inch tires.”
· On 6/5/08 Bob posts: “That is the pre production/prototype trailer” and “I am looking for a larger building to set up more of a production line type assembly”.
· On 7/26/08 Bob posts: “I have been approached by a company wanting me to build 20 a month for 3 years.”
· In the picture of Bob’s trailer we see five violations of the FVMSS rules, one CARB rule and one California DMV rule. While these things will not prevent a trailer from being registered, it would provide a lawyer with a good argument should an accident take place.

Opinions:
· We view Bobs’ actions as a deliberate premeditated attempt to get inside information on how we build our products and use that information for his own personal business gain through deceptive practices.
· We agree that inspiration for design exists all around us and that imitation is flattering. Design elements are pulled together to create ever better products. The Horizon was designed from the ground up as an all original product. The Chaser drew inspiration for the nostalgia of military trailers however the execution is significantly different.
· The portrayal of Bob as just some one who has “taken up the hobby of building trailers for his friends” in our opinion is false based upon his public statements.
· In our opinion, if you look at pictures of the Horizon and Bobs’ trailer side by side, he did quite a bit more than draw a little inspiration from our product. 80-90% in our opinion.

Some mention has been made that our forthcoming clamshell trailer is drawing from other design. This is true. The little known fact is that this is a collaborative effort of AT, Kamparoo and Cub to develop a new “U.S.-centric” design and hence the similarities.

There are lots of small trailer manufacturers catering to this niche market. We applaud them. We too are small. We also started in a garage. We have put seven years of R&D effort into our products and we do so passionately. We strive at every level to build safe and compliant trailers. This knowledge and expertise does not come without a price however. We hope Bob is successful in his endeavor to serve the market as long as it is not at our expense and he is not being deceptive or building a dangerous product.
 
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adventureduo

Dave Druck [KI6LBB]
elcoyote said:
Having read the posts here we feel it is important to separate some fact

Facts:
· In March Robert W. Brown made an appointment to visit AT under the guises that he was a potential customer. He was afforded the customary AT hospitality and spent the better part of 2 hours closely examining our product line and production facility.
· On 3/26/08 unbeknownst to us, Bob, a.k.a. “skersfan” made the following statement on the fjcruisers forum: “I just spent some time at Adventure Trailers. There stuff is very good, no question, but way way way way way over priced.
I have spent the morning figuring out how to do the same trailer and have a good idea. And the cost of the trailer would be less than half of what they are asking.”
· On 4/22/08 purchased a Lock and Roll coupler from AT.
· On 5/21/08 Bob posts a set of dimensions for his trailer that are nearly identical to that of our Horizon: “102 inches long, 70 inches wide. Main box 48 long, 40 wide, and 32 tall. Two side boxes at 15x15x48 and a front jet ski box, Independent suspension 22 inches of ground clearance with 35 inch tires.”
· On 6/5/08 Bob posts: “That is the pre production/prototype trailer” and “I am looking for a larger building to set up more of a production line type assembly”.
· On 7/26/08 Bob posts: “I have been approached by a company wanting me to build 20 a month for 3 years.”
· In the picture of Bob’s trailer we see five violations of the FVMSS rules, one CARB rule and one California DMV rule. While these things will not prevent a trailer from being registered, it would provide a lawyer with a good argument should an accident take place.

Opinions:
· We view Bobs’ actions as a deliberate premeditated attempt to get inside information on how we build our products and use that information for his own personal business gain through deceptive practices.
· We agree that inspiration for design exists all around us and that imitation is flattering. Design elements are pulled together to create ever better products. The Horizon was designed from the ground up as an all original product. The Chaser drew inspiration for the nostalgia of military trailers however the execution is significantly different.
· The portrayal of Bob as just some one who has “taken up the hobby of building trailers for his friends” in our opinion is false based upon his public statements.
· In our opinion, if you look at pictures of the Horizon and Bobs’ trailer side by side, he did quite a bit more than draw a little inspiration from our product. 80-90% in our opinion.

If above is true... that's pretty tweaked IMHO. That's not cool at all.
 

adrenaline503

Explorer
After reading elcoyote's post, that does seem to be a bit much. Inspiration is one thing, but checking one out in person then duplicating it....
 

Bergger

Explorer
So Mario has he violated any patents and if so do plan on doing anything about it? Even if not he is definitely not the type of person I'd purchase anything from. Given the above statements are true of course. Someone should post this thread over on the FJ forum. The guy seems a little crooked to me.
 
Having just read his (Robert W. Brown/ “skersfan” ) posts over on the FJ forum... I have to say that I will never personally do business with someone of such low ethics. Shame on him and anyone who supports him.
 

SpeedAgent

Adventurer
When I first started reading this thread I thought this was harmless since this guy was not producing for anyone other than his "friends or buddies". There are only so many trailer designs for this type of trailer anyway. I was proved wrong as the thread grew. This is flat out design right infringement and you can sue for damages in civil court, ask me how I know. I designed a product a couple of years ago and went into business with a couple of people I thought I knew and trusted. I divulged my designs to all of my new partners and within a few weeks I was hung out to dry. Luckily, I found a good IP/Trade Secret attorney.

It is expensive to hammer it out in court, but it is safe to say that you get what you pay for when you buy products or services from people that behave in this way. If I had $9k to spend on a trailer (if I lived in out West it would make more sense too) I would buy an AT just based on the reviews and the positive feedback on this forum alone. I certainly wouldn't even spend half that on a product I knew was a blatant copy just for profit. That and I would be assured that customer service was available. Some guy ripping off designs might not be around for too long...wink wink.

Maybe Bob is a nice guy, I can't say one way or another, but delibarately ripping off someone's designs is unethical. It does not sound like he is just building these for his buddies. When he finds he can make a profit off of someone else's design work then that is a direct ripoff and grounds for a lawsuit. If I were AT I would approach with a cease and desist.

Edit-Is Bob going by the name "Wolf Creek Trailers"? That was the name in one of the photo links provided earlier.

Chris
 
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Bergger

Explorer
I'm so tempted to sign up to the FJ forum just to post something about this guy. Do you think that's a good idea or should I just let it go. Being a customer of AT and having such a good experience with everyone who works there what this guy is doing is really bothering me!
 

adrenaline503

Explorer
Bergger said:
I'm so tempted to sign up to the FJ forum just to post something about this guy. Do you think that's a good idea or should I just let it go. Being a customer of AT and having such a good experience with everyone who works there what this guy is doing is really bothering me!


Let it go. No need to draw attention... Smart people would do a bit of research before hand anyway.
 

ExpoMike

Well-known member
Reading through the thread on the FJ board, here is the link to the pic for "Wolf Creek Trailers".

http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/mtbcoach/Wolf%20Creek%20Trailers/

Looks like a direct copy regarding the frame style and box style. Heck, even put the Engel on the same side pull out. Now he is using a torsion style axle, not the air/IFS setup AT has. I know AT got away from this setup because it did not work well for offroad use and designed the system they have now.

I do agree it is very unethical to come into AT's shop and basically design his off of their setup. I "could" understand if you saw one going down the road and said, hey I could build that but to actually go into AT's shop, that's some mighty big .... well you get the point.

I would never do any business with this person nor ever recommend then to anyone but since it is not a 100% copy, using the same suspension and all, I am not sure much can be done. It would have been nice to see someone build a better mouse trap and raise the bar for everyone but like so many lazy people in business, it's easier to copy then to inovate.

My support is still 100% behind AT and I still want to see the clamshell design. Hint, hint...
 

1speed

Explorer
Hey, who painted the Horizon blue? Wait a minute, that's not a Horizon...That's just wrong! :pROFSheriffHL:
 

Bad Voodoo

Unassuming Superhero
SOCALFJ said:
If above is true... that's pretty tweaked IMHO. That's not cool at all.

Yup. Competition is good, but not off the backs of those who engineer, produce, and support honest products. That is disappointing news, if true.
 

Robert Bills

Explorer
Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. But before I do, rest assured that if I were in the market for a new expedition trailer, the first I would consider would be AT. Martyn and Mario build an excellent product with features superior to their competition. Also, Martyn has been very helpful to me in determining the direction I will probably take when I make some upgrades to my Bantam trailer. I am not promoting or defending anyone, and the points I make are not necessarily my own opinions, I'm simply offering another possible point of view for this ongoing debate.

Reverse engineering has been a fact of American business for hundreds of years. Unless a design is patented, or an idea copyrighted, it is fair game.

Have you ever purchased Pepsi? Where do you think the company got the basic formula? The answer is reverse engineering. Take some Coca-Cola to the chemist and have him break it down to it's component parts, then experiment until the taste is as close as possible. Why isn't Pepsi exactly the same? Because Coke keeps it's formula secret so that competitors cannot duplicate it exactly. The rest is marketing.

Ever purchased generic brand shampoo labled "compare to Paul Mitchell," etc. That's reverse engineering. Is there anything unethical about it? No. It would only be unethical if they labeled the bottle "same as Paul Mitchell" or otherwise attempted to deceive people into believing the product was just like or actually was a Paul Mitchell product. There is nothing magic about shampoo. Different companies use different ingredients and different manufacturing processes, but the products are largely the same.

How about generic drugs? They are the same as the brand name, available after the patent for the brand name drug has expired, and considerably less expensive. Anyone here think it is wrong to buy generics or unethical to manufacture them?

I worked in a chemical research lab one summer while I was in college. Most of the work was analyzing commercial products to determine how they were made. Clients were major corporations who paid substantial sums to learn as much as they could about their competition. No one thought that the lab or it's clients were unethical. It was a fact of business.

The situation here is similar to that of an offroading friend who markets gas tank skid plates for TJs and other jeep models. He came up with his design by taking a similar skid plate for CJs that he got from a friend of mine who designed and built 10 in his garage for members of my jeep club (I have one.) He then then adapted it to TJs. Several years later, a company in another state began to market a very similar skid plate, which my friend was convinced was developed from a skid plate that he had sold to the man who turned out to be his future competitor. Was my friend angry? You bet. Did he have legal grounds to stop his new competitor? Unfortunately, no. The design was neither patented nor copyrighted, and frankly, there are not a lot of ways to design a full coverage skid plate for a TJ. Now, there are dozens of companies marketing similar products, including Warn, and the price has come down considerably. One or more of you may actually own one.

Another example is 4X Doctor in Burbank. He was the first to market rocker guards with upward canted tube steps for CJs and YJs, also differential guards. He didn't obtain patents or copyrights, and it is unlikely that he could have. Now there are dozens of highly regarded companies marketing lookalike products, including Poison Spyder, etc. Where do you think they got the idea? Are all of them unethical?

Capitalism is survival of the fittest in its purest form. Patents and copyrights were originally granted by the British crown to protect original designs and ideas from copying without permission and payment of royalties (hence the term). Once the patent or copyright expired, the design or ida became part of the public domain and available to anyone. Therefore, companies must continually adapt and introduce new products as the patents/copyrights expire, competition develops and market share is split.

Martyn has extensive experience using expedition trailers, particularly the South African style and I assume the Australian style trailers as well. He has owned several (well, one that I know of, but I assume several). I'm confident that few would argue that by using these trailers and experiencing what worked and what didn't, that he was unethical when he developed his own ideas, taking the best from his experience and improving the concept. I also doubt that anyone here would accuse AT of being unethical by actually purchasing a trailer and then developing their own, incorporating their uniques experience, but with some striking similarities.

Form follows function. Supply follows demand. Success draws attention. The guy everyone is complaining about is satisfying demand with a product at a lower price point. He product is not as sophisticated as an AT trailer, but what he is building apparently satisfies a need in the marketplace. He isn't claiming that his product is an AT product or that it is better than an AT product. At most, he is saying "compare with AT" just like the generic shampoo companies. Is he violating any patents or copyrights? I doubt it. And just as the AT trailers are loosely derived from military 1/4 ton trailers and post-war South African and Australian expedition trailers, his is derived from all of those plus AT. Remember, form follows function. And if his product isn't as good, or doesn't work as well, or is priced too high, he will fail. That's how a free marketplace works. It's part of the natural product cycle - the originator starts with 100% of the market share, which diminishes over time as others get into the same market. That inspires continued innovation and development of new products, keeps the marketplace efficient, and prices low.

OK, let the debate continue.
 

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