Horizon Trailer COPYCAT

[OverlandZJ]

Anyone here have any doubts that Mario and/or Martyn havent been 100% honest and accurate in any post they have made on this forum? I certainly dont and have no doubt it's exactly as described by Mario.

While i have no doubt that this gentleman will sell some trailers (unless legal action prohibits) i dont think he'll attract the type of people who are loyal AT customers. I would be if finances allowed.

 

[TheGillz]

Robert, no offense intended, but your arguments are somewhat circular and the way you describe your assumptions about the way AT went about R&D is exactly the opposite as has been shown from this Bob fellow.

Another thing is your comparisons.

The government mandates that the drug manufactureres offer generics.

What would happen if you spent 2 hours with paul mitchell at his factory and perused his formulas and then stated that you were going to make his shampoo at half the price? That is hardly the same as purchasing the product off the shelf and trying to get the ingredients right, let alone using it to make a better and more precise product for your particular market.

You yourself used the term "loosely derived". There is nothing loose about the blue trailer except the torsion axle.

 

[computeruser]

I'd have had more respect for the guy if he had purchased an AT product and reverse-engineered it that way. Hell, even if he had rented one for a weekend. But to take a tour of the factory under the guise of being a potential customer, well, that's low.

I think his inclination is correct - there is definitely a market for trailers that cannot justify/afford/convince spouse to meet one's trailer with an AT product, notwithstanding their incredible reputation and the guys who make them. So with that in mind, design and build a less expensive trailer. Lots of guys on this site have done so. Heck, I've got a rolling frame sitting in my garage and a bunch of salvaged bedframe pieces that I cut to length this evening that I'm using to build an off-road camping trailer on a tight budget. But to come right out and admit to industrial espionage is not the sort of behavior that, to my mind anyway, engenders a lot of respect.

 

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

I would say that a lot more information has been brought into the light. I still stand by my original post. I would not post information like this, that I had not researched before hand.

There are a lot of forums and the information is out there.


The world is too small and without your word, you have nothing.

 

[CoastalDefender]

I'll preface this with- I have no dog in this fight. And frankly couldn't give a toot about it either way.

However, Robert Bills is about dead on. With my assumption that everyone in this thread is speaking the truth, I don't see anything illegal or evil having happened. Shady? Dishonest? Certainly.

But these things are how the world works. So vote with your dollar, not online bickering.



As a truck driver, "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug."

 

[Rezarf <><]

We also are always willing to help out persons who have decided to build their own trailer for their own use as we are sure many members here would attest to.

I'll back that up, both Mario and Martyn have given underdog DIY guys like me, free expert advise, when it came to me building up my home made trailer. For crying out loud, some of the areas they spoke into should have come with a price tag of expert consultant commission proportions! It is plain deception to get a tour of the way they do things to profit from it.

I have benifited from their help and hard work, not profitted from them.

These guys are FOR the community and sport, I say help protect their product! :sport_box

ROFSheriffHL:

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment...

I see exactly where you are going with it...

However, I don't hang out with soap manufactures, nor go on soap aficionado retreats. Nor do I spend my vacation discussing Coke formulas with Coke enthusiasts. The expedition & overland outfitters scene is pretty tight knit when it comes down to it, with every user likely only one or two persons removed from places like ExPo. Find a similar market or scene per say and then we can compare.

We as a community should demand more from our vendors, myself included. To not only provide quality goods at honest prices, but to be ethical and honest in the meantime.

 

[Ireland]

pssst wanna buy a cheap Blue trailer...no warranty though

 

[Mc Taco]

A little late as usual but here goes:
1. I can understand that the blue trailer and its siblings would look similar to the AT products. One big box with two smaller boxes over the wheel wells. No offense on the design, but how else would you do it. But as was said by Mario, if the measurements are almost identical, that is a bit cheeky to say the least. I can't imagine that those particular dimensions are the only ones that will work together.

B. I have been to the AT shop before. Bought a couple of the fuel can holders. Got a tour of the facility by Scott. Showed me a suspension upgrade they were putting on a older trailer. Very open, very friendly. Just like the @$$ that stole the trailer from AT this last spring has changed the rental business for them, I hate to think that AT will be less open with their shop. If they need to protect their intellectual property so be it.

III. At the risk of offending 'Bob', in general, poor quality copies do effect the reputation and sales of the original. I know it is labeled with a different name so its not a true counterfeit. Savvy buyers will do the research and know the difference, but un-savvy buyers money is just as good, and why should AT lose out on business because of loss of reputation from a knock-off.

 

[SpeedAgent]

For people saying that this in "online bickering" and the point should be dropped are WAY off. Bob obviously knew what he was planning to do when he called AT to get the tour of their facility and their product. How anyone construes this as "ok" or "no big deal" is way beyond me. If it were your project or business and someone blatantly ripped you off you would be injured in some way. You wouldn't just let it roll off. In this thread there is more than enough evidence, including Bob's own posts admitting to ripping off AT's design in their own shop, that shows lack of integrity and premeditated deceit in an attempt to copy a popular and well made product.

I too think there are only so many ways to build an expedition trailer. A couple of boxes on top of a box and some wheels. But if it were so easy why did Bob have to go to such lengths to copy a product? If he is so great at what he does why not come up with an original design? Is it really a prototype if the dimensions are exactly the same as the design you ripped off? No, its not.

I don't know any of the people involved in this saga. I have PM'd Martyn once or twice during the Jeremy Deckling fiasco. However, I have had something similar happen to me so I understand from a business perspective how damaging and bothersome something like this can be. Remember, this is what these guys do from 9-5. Think about what you do during this time and how you would feel if someone started taking credit for your hard work....

Chris

 

[Nuclear Redneck]

I think the best thing to do here is to take the high road. I agree that this action by "wolf creek trailers" is distasteful and wrong. :bigbossHL:

However, since the community of expedition minded people is small, I think that people will soon know who the real people are and where to find the real Adventure Trailer. I don't want to see us fall to the level of some of the other forums out there, just bashing away at folks. I really hope not to see people from here loggin on to other forums just to bash this copycat artist. Logging on to praise my Chaser and its flawless performance, that I may do.

Please, lets keep to the moral high ground on this one.

Although, I don't think that my truck is rated to pull a wolf creek trailer.:ylsmoke:

 

[tdesanto]

You need to ask yourself...

...who would you rather do business with?

Vote with your dollar.

If we support the innovators instead of the copiers, then the customers will always win. We'll reap the benefits of constant improvement and better products.

If all we're left with are copies, then where’s the innovation? How do we get to the next level? I.e., the innovation would slow to a crawl or stop altogether.

 

[durango_60]

This couldn't be more true. Unfortunately there are some naive people here when it comes to an understanding of how products are brought to market.

I also find it interesting how many Toyota drivers suddenly have such disdain for reverse engineering, the company got its start in the 1930's reverse engineering Ford and GM products.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I also find it interesting how many Toyota drivers suddenly have such disdain for reverse engineering, the company got its start in the 1930's reverse engineering Ford and GM products.

Apples and oranges IMO

Did Toyota produce a 95% identical unit? They didn't even produce a 10% identical unit. Find an automaker that hasn't reversed engineered the next guys product to a minor degree (minor being the key word). While we can draw parallels all we want in this world, the fact is we as a community should demand better. This isn't a world auto economy (Toyota, Ford, GM, etc), this isn't a generic economy (shampoo and coke), this is OUR little economy and we have the responsibility and ability to control its integrity.

 

[durango_60]

What if "Bob" ends up designing a superior product 5 years from now, will that justify his beginnings?